Dreger: "CBJ and Nashville with trade offers for Matt Duchene"

S E P H

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Okay. Given that, you surely won't object if we throw in a few more "simply for potential" guys like Jost and Meloche, right?

Come the **** on. This "your prospects have little/no value" crap is one of the oldest tricks in the book. And never mind the fact that Murray's injury history of late has been of the "five games here, six games there" variety rather than the "losing huge chunks of the season" variety.

Wrong. The biggest risk is that this year turns out to not be a fluke for Duchene and he continues to deteriorate - in which case we've traded our best trade chip, our best forward prospect, and one of our best goaltending prospects for a ~$4m cap dump.
I don't think you know me, I would absolutely give away Jost and Meloche if the deal was right. I proposed Duchene and Jost for Galchenyuk and Sergachev one time which angered Avs fans.

Jost, Meloche, Dubois, and Elvis all have six games of NHL experience combined. Of course I never meant to justify that Dubois and Elvis suck so this is a good deal for CBJ. Not even close, I hate when posters want "player x", the opposing fanbase comes in and says the offer sucks, and the original poster bash the player they made the thread for. I cannot stand those hypocrites. Of course Dubois and Elvis have good potential and realistic talent to play in the NHL. That's why I want them, but you cannot sit there and justify to me that they're worth Duchene.

Especially when you use words like "deteriorate" in the same sentence for Matt Duchene. Your second porition of your post shows how weak your argument is when you have to "fear monger" to get any point across. Duchene would absolutely be PPG player on Blue Jackets.

And I didn't fear monger when I was complaining about Murray and his injury list which goes far back when he was still a Silvertip. Clearly he has less value compared to other defenders out there and for me, is the biggest risk of the trade. All I was trying to get at with my post is to make you see that, my proposed deal is quite fair. Quite fair in the actuality when you include fairytale aspects like potential where you cannot judge or grasp it. All you can do is value it and each value is different as each opinion varies.
 

Mr Positive

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You would be wrong. Because the Avs don't have their McDavid yet. They are in a completely different position then the Oilers were.
Would you have made that trade just after you drafted Draisaitl in 2014?
I highly doubt it.

That deal would make sense next season should we get lucky (we won't) and land Rasmus Dahlin.

But that would defeat the purpose of trading offense for defense anyways.
Yes I would do that deal again even without McDavid. The rebuild was horrid because of the state of or defense. Our GMs couldn't make any moves to fix it because they wanted elite D for our wingers.

What I'm mostly saying is that fans have a flawed notion of value to begin with. Sakic could get a load of great picks for Duchene and people would pat Sakic on the back for it, a bit like the O Reilly trade at the time. People thought that Larsson was worth less than Hall, but GMs put more value in guys like Larsson than fans do. NJ would not have traded for Hall if they had some young talent in his league already.

The ultimate trade for Duchene would be a one for one. Or even better, where Colorado adds. Getting a pile of valuable lesser assets wont help, and another losing season will reduce everyone's value even more
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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what has given you the impression they will?

The fact a trade hasn't been done already.


This Jenner/Murray offer was rumored back at the deadline as well.


Unless something serious has happened in Sakics demands(And I highly doubt that to be the case if they haven't changed to this point) that package wont get it done.



Murray is seriously damaged goods at this point. And Jenner took a pretty significant step back this year. There's a reason the two of them are so easily available from CBus. Sakic needs to stay away.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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Yes I would do that deal again even without McDavid. The rebuild was horrid because of the state of or defense. Our GMs couldn't make any moves to fix it because they wanted elite D for our wingers.

What I'm mostly saying is that fans have a flawed notion of value to begin with. Sakic could get a load of great picks for Duchene and people would pat Sakic on the back for it, a bit like the O Reilly trade at the time. People thought that Larsson was worth less than Hall, but GMs put more value in guys like Larsson than fans do. NJ would not have traded for Hall if they had some young talent in his league already.

The ultimate trade for Duchene would be a one for one. Or even better, where Colorado adds. Getting a pile of valuable lesser assets wont help, and another losing season will reduce everyone's value even more



It certainly helped the Avs back when they traded Lindros. Or when Boston traded Phil Kessel.


It can go both ways. The futures package the Avs get may turn out to be fantastic where all the players realize the potential they have and become just as good of players or even better than what Duchene is right now. It could also completely fail.


There's less risk maybe in a 1 for 1 trade involving Duchene as we're probably getting a player who already has a proven track record. But given the Avs current state I think a swing for the fences with a futures based package is exactly what they should do.
 

mikeyp24

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The fact a trade hasn't been done already.


This Jenner/Murray offer was rumored back at the deadline as well.


Unless something serious has happened in Sakics demands(And I highly doubt that to be the case if they haven't changed to this point) that package wont get it done.



Murray is seriously damaged goods at this point. And Jenner took a pretty significant step back this year. There's a reason the two of them are so easily available from CBus. Sakic needs to stay away.
#1 Because there are multiple offers out there right now it could be a matter of seeing hiw much more you can get and which one helps you the most

#2 I never seen anything around them for the TDL but there is a current Murray+ deal out there today and CBJ have been noted as 1 of the most persistent on Duchene.

#3 That package could be the one he was looking for. Not futures but 2 young currents that are 24.

#4 If those 2 are somehow considered damaged goods I'd hate to hear your opinion of off the cliff Duchene... see I can make unfounded claims abiut your players too...
 

Abe Vukota

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Marek's take from the M vs. W podcast is the most logical one: Sakic would be a fool to trade Duchene now. Play 2-3 months of the season before even thinking about it. If he's tearing it up, his value goes through the roof. If he's terrible, he won't be any worse than he was to close out last season, so he'll still get a reasonable deal.

The argument against this is that most teams won't have cap room for him once the season starts, but I think the number of suitors is limited anyway, so I'm not sure that's a major consideration. Plus it looks like he won't be traded before free agency starts, so it's a moot point.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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Marek's take from the M vs. W podcast is the most logical one: Sakic would be a fool to trade Duchene now. Play 2-3 months of the season before even thinking about it. If he's tearing it up, his value goes through the roof. If he's terrible, he won't be any worse than he was to close out last season, so he'll still get a reasonable deal.

The argument against this is that most teams won't have cap room for him once the season starts, but I think the number of suitors is limited anyway, so I'm not sure that's a major consideration. Plus it looks like he won't be traded before free agency starts, so it's a moot point.

Avs should also be in a position to retain up to 50% salary on him if needed, and should be able to take a cap dump back as well to make it work from a salary point.


Although, I think if the Avs are going to wait 2-3 months into the season, they're probably better off just waiting until next summer entirely. That way teams would also have the opportunity to negotiate a new contract with Duchene before trading for him.


I imagine teams would be much more likely to move a Hanifin or Ekholm/Ellis if they did so knowing Duchene would be signed beyond his current contract with them.


Even more so if Duchene can return to 50+ points next season as well, and eases that worry that he's declined a bunch.
 

Perratrooper

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#1 Because there are multiple offers out there right now it could be a matter of seeing hiw much more you can get and which one helps you the most

#2 I never seen anything around them for the TDL but there is a current Murray+ deal out there today and CBJ have been noted as 1 of the most persistent on Duchene.

#3 That package could be the one he was looking for. Not futures but 2 young currents that are 24.

#4 If those 2 are somehow considered damaged goods I'd hate to hear your opinion of off the cliff Duchene... see I can make unfounded claims abiut your players too...

I have no problem personally as an Avs fan with Jenner and Murray, but personally I'd want a bit more on top. Maybe that's greedy, but I don't think that package puts us in a better spot.

I just really want PLD and Murray though
 

JohnnyJacket13

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The fact a trade hasn't been done already.


This Jenner/Murray offer was rumored back at the deadline as well.


Unless something serious has happened in Sakics demands(And I highly doubt that to be the case if they haven't changed to this point) that package wont get it done.



Murray is seriously damaged goods at this point. And Jenner took a pretty significant step back this year. There's a reason the two of them are so easily available from CBus. Sakic needs to stay away.

No it wasn't. The rumored asking price at the deadline was Murray+Wennberg, which Columbus obviously rejects.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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#1 Because there are multiple offers out there right now it could be a matter of seeing hiw much more you can get and which one helps you the most

#2 I never seen anything around them for the TDL but there is a current Murray+ deal out there today and CBJ have been noted as 1 of the most persistent on Duchene.

#3 That package could be the one he was looking for. Not futures but 2 young currents that are 24.

#4 If those 2 are somehow considered damaged goods I'd hate to hear your opinion of off the cliff Duchene... see I can make unfounded claims abiut your players too...


Believe me I think Duchenes value is less than half of what it was before he just put together his 40 point season. It's a huge risk for teams as to whether he can bounce back to being a 60-70 point player, or if his game truly has taken a step back into just a ~50 point guy(He wont post 40 again, whatever team he goes to will have way more offense then the Avs from last season).




They're not unfounded claims at all. Jenner clearly took a step back. He scored 30 Goals and 50+ points 2 years ago, and followed it up with not even 20 goals or 40 points. That's the very definition of a step back. And he doesn't have a proven track record prior that would suggest last season was just a bad season like Duchene has. It's a much bigger unknown as to whether he's a 35G/55 point player or a 20G/40 point player which have massive differences in value.


As for Murray, yeah he's by far my least valued Dman in any rumors for Duchene. The guy is barely a Top 4D(Actually I dont even think he is) who continually gets beat out of spots by other guys, and on top of that he can't stay healthy ever. Literally have 0 interest in him as a player and will be pretty upset if Sakic opts for him over the Hamonic offer and I dont like Hamonic much either.
 

Meeqs

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Murray is a young LHD, he is also terrible:
8YKP3QPW5
https://public.tableau.com/shared/8YKP3QPW5?:display_count=yes
Jenner is also has 3rd-4th line possession numbers and puts up between 30-40 points a season. He's essentially a younger Mcginn.

Neither one of those guys are special, and while I could see them being a part of a Duchene deal they certainly wouldn't be the main piece. This isn't saying that aren't solid NHL players to those CBJ fans who may like them, but they don't get you Duchene.

If there is any team who would know CBJ's roster it would be the Avs, having their previous ASGM and 2 previous AHL coaches.

If a deal does happen I would expect Bjork or Wennberg to be the main target (assuming the top 2 are untouchable). Maybe PLD but coming off a meh season I'm not sure he'd be the one they'd look at.
 

boredmale

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Avs should also be in a position to retain up to 50% salary on him if needed, and should be able to take a cap dump back as well to make it work from a salary point.

Although, I think if the Avs are going to wait 2-3 months into the season, they're probably better off just waiting until next summer entirely. That way teams would also have the opportunity to negotiate a new contract with Duchene before trading for him.

I imagine teams would be much more likely to move a Hanifin or Ekholm/Ellis if they did so knowing Duchene would be signed beyond his current contract with them.

Even more so if Duchene can return to 50+ points next season as well, and eases that worry that he's declined a bunch.

I think Colorado stands to lose more then they can gain by waiting a year. Worst case scenario is Duchene repeats, my guess his asking price goes from Good NHLer(2/3 Defenseman, 2nd line forward), 1st and good prospect to 1st and 2 decent prospect/3rd liner/#4 defensemen. On the flip side say he gets 60 points they might be able to squeeze out either a slightly better player or (more likely) prospect then they can now
 

Meeqs

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Best of luck with Murray or Jenner. I still think the Blues could put together a better package, but I guess they aren't willing to

I think its so funny what teams are willing to give up to get 3rd line centers like Hanzal and middle pairing guys coming off bad years like Hamonic, but once it comes to a legitimate 1st line center all of a sudden a 1st, a prospect and a roster guy is lunacy.

I mean RJ is asking for 8.5m in NSH, and goodness knows how much Jumbo Joe will get paid tomorrow at 38(?). Its not easy getting centers.
 

JoemAvs

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I think Colorado stands to lose more then they can gain by waiting a year. Worst case scenario is Duchene repeats, my guess his asking price goes from Good NHLer(2/3 Defenseman, 2nd line forward), 1st and good prospect to 1st and 2 decent prospect/3rd liner/#4 defensemen. On the flip side say he gets 60 points they might be able to squeeze out either a slightly better player or (more likely) prospect then they can now

No matter what Sakic does, he will have to take a big gamble on something.

We won't get a surefire 1 for 1 deal for Duchene where we know exactly what we will get in return . We will have to gamble on some futures or gamble on Duchene bouncing back. Either way there is a lot of risk involved.

One thing that might keeping him around more reasonable is the Metropolitan Division.

Odds are that one of the teams in there will not be happy with their start of the season. Don't think that all of the Rangers, Jackets, Islanders, Canes and maybe even Flyers (very longshot but still) will have a good start to the season.

And especially the 3 teams most interested in Duchene in the Jackets, Canes and Islanders (even though I highly doubt Sakic will ever deal with Snow again but who knows) probably won't all start off hot and all of them really want to make the playoffs next season.

It makes sense that the team having a bad start would offer up way more than they are right now. Especially if Duchene starts off decently enough.

We will see. At this point I am just sick of this drama. I just hope someone steps up and pays up just to get this over with soon.
 

Vincenzo Arelliti

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Agreed. The Blues have futures, a young top 4D, AND plenty of capable players similar to Jenner. I just don't see how they can't outbid them unless Sakic is refusing to trade in-division. STL should be all over this.
 

Cyclones Rock

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Please god no haha. I also guarantee I'm one of the only ones that would be 100% fine with him never playing here again even as a 35yo on the 3rd line putting up 25g and 55pts. I can't stand the guy.


"Home" means Vancouver.

Don't worry. He'll never play in Columbus again.

Two year running playoff totals: Nashville 19 wins, Columbus 1 win.
#1Cs are really important:laugh:
 

CBJx614

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Murray is a young LHD, he is also terrible:
8YKP3QPW5
https://public.tableau.com/shared/8YKP3QPW5?:display_count=yes
Jenner is also has 3rd-4th line possession numbers and puts up between 30-40 points a season. He's essentially a younger Mcginn.

Neither one of those guys are special, and while I could see them being a part of a Duchene deal they certainly wouldn't be the main piece. This isn't saying that aren't solid NHL players to those CBJ fans who may like them, but they don't get you Duchene.

If there is any team who would know CBJ's roster it would be the Avs, having their previous ASGM and 2 previous AHL coaches.

If a deal does happen I would expect Bjork or Wennberg to be the main target (assuming the top 2 are untouchable). Maybe PLD but coming off a meh season I'm not sure he'd be the one they'd look at.

Wennberg isn't going anywhere in a Duchene trade. The idea is to ADD to Wennberg, not get rid of him. If it takes Wennberg to get Duchene than we might as well just sign Thorton and wait for PLD to develop.
 

Meeqs

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Wennberg isn't going anywhere in a Duchene trade. The idea is to ADD to Wennberg, not get rid of him. If it takes Wennberg to get Duchene than we might as well just sign Thorton and wait for PLD to develop.

I don't expect CBJ would have any desire to move him, and I also don't doubt he would be a player Sakic would demand. So I wouldn't be surprised if that is the current hang up. We can all discuss what we feel is fair, but most of it always ends up being off. However if we go off of what is reported Sakics asking price has been very high, and Murray+Jenner+1st isn't high, its meh. If Sakic was settling for Meh, Duchene would be moved already.

What is even more likely is Sakic is trying his best to get Hanifin, so he is dealing with divisional teams and asking for pieces they are unlikely to give up and hoping for a win on either front.
 

Cyclones Rock

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I believe the last time you made such an assertion about lower leagues it was that Steve Mason was done and couldn't hack it in the ECHL, let alone the NHL or AHL.

Coming from someone who thought RJ Umberger was still a second line NHL forward going forward after his last year in Columbus. LOL

At the end of his Columbus tenure, Mason couldn't have hacked it in the ECHL. He was that bad. He became an NHL goalie again in Philly. He needed a change of scenery. You nostalgic types would have kept him in Columbus forever because of his Calder season. Those glory days passed him by years before he finally was (mercifully) shown the door in Columbus. Delusional types such as yourself would have prevented the acquisition of Bobrovsky as you would have faithfully awaited "the real Steve Mason" to appear. That never would have happened had he stayed.

Murray is a bottom pairing defenseman. Deal with it. That's what he is in Columbus. Bottom pairing defensemen ultimately get replaced by younger and cheaper types. Murray's day of reckoning will come in a few years. The AHL or Europe is his long term hockey future. Sorry, but your hero Scott Howson whiffed on this #2 overall pick.

What exactly are the skills you see in him that makes you think that he has top pairing potential? Your response ought to be an interesting one:laugh: Of course, you won't.:D
 
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Dumais

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Wennberg huh, so are you ready to talk trading Mackinnon or you going to be adding (a big add too) to Duchene? Because Wennberg at his age and just coming of his season, and just coming off his elc, is way more valuable than 2 years of Duchene who's stats seem to be declining. BTW, You guys would be better arguing with Oilers fans over the adds for Drai considering he's their second best center and far more expendable.
 

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