Player Discussion Carey Price - The Non All-Star Edition

[BLONG7]

The question is WHO is better.

There is NO question.

 

[BLONG7]

I wish that we didn't even draft Price, Kopitar would have been a much better option.

It at least would have forced our GM to try to build a team, instead of laying it all at the feet of da goalie.

 

[Archijerej]

Michel Therrien doesn't get enough credit for Price's success in the past. It was a similar situation as with Islanders goalies under Trotz. You got the impression that he was constantly bailing the team out, when in fact the chances for the opposing team were the only chances available and the goalie was able to anticipate them.

 

[Le Tricolore]

ok thanks for not answering

I thought the point I was making was very clear.

Other than for a small stretch in 2009-10, Carey Price has always been a much better goalie than Jaroslav Halak. Halak had a very good two rounds in the playoffs ten years ago, and some people can't get over it.

 

[OldCraig71]

Kopitar is one man. Even if Halak or another goalie after were good, it still wouldn’t have made much of a difference. We still would’ve lacked the goal scoring depth we have for years. And Kopitar’s name wouldn’t have been near as illustrious as it has been with LA. Likely would’ve fallen into the same position Price is in right now, only difference being position. Great/good players get surrounded with crap all the time now. It’s been a 30-31 team league for 20 years. It’s very difficult to win. Even tougher when you add the political crap our franchise has refused to move away from on top of everything else.

My reason for saying that was, I feel and have always felt that a strong top 6 and a good mid-tier NHL goalie are the way to go to build a successful team. We have relied on Price more than we should have and even made him our highest-paid player with holes all through the roster. Price gets blamed for the team's shortcomings because of his salary but the team in front of him has always been the problem. We have also struggled at the center ice position for years and Kopitar would have been a big step in the right direction, 15 years later and Phil Danault is our number one center and before him it was DD, that's just really bad.

 

[Habs Halifax]

My reason for saying that was, I feel and have always felt that a strong top 6 and a good mid-tier NHL goalie are the way to go to build a successful team. We have relied on Price more than we should have and even made him our highest-paid player with holes all through the roster. Price gets blamed for the team's shortcomings because of his salary but the team in front of him has always been the problem. We have also struggled at the center ice position for years and Kopitar would have been a big step in the right direction, 15 years later and Phil Danault is our number one center and before him it was DD, that's just really bad.

100%! Blaming Price cause our team D in front of him and our centers are not good enough is disgusting IMO. Building around a goalie is an issue yes but we have him and yes we are overpaying him a bit. Regardless, he is our only star and we should not treat players like that.

 

[OldCraig71]

100%! Blaming Price cause our team D in front of him and our centers are not good enough is disgusting IMO. Building around a goalie is an issue yes but we have him and yes we are overpaying him a bit. Regardless, he is our only star and we should not treat players like that.

2020 is pulling out all of the stops! A 100% agreement between TLTQ and OC!

 

[ahmedou]

Would you mind explaining some of the context behind these graphs? My understanding of advanced stats isn't great. Even in the second graph, what does that per game refer to? I get the proportions of shots the he faces part, but what does the Y axis refer to? Chances/attempts? That doesn't seem right though, since there's no way any goalie sees 50+ slot passes per game, for example. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, just trying to understand.

Goodou question

I'mma trying to explain it as much as I can.

First graph (Carey Price 2019/20 AR):

GSAA - (Goals Saved Above Average): The difference between the actual number of goals that a goalkeeper has collected and their expected number, which stems from the danger of the shots that the goalkeeper is facing and which would stop the average NHL goalkeeper.

GSAx - (Goals Saved Above Expected): The most used and most authoritative statistic for goalkeepers, which expresses how many extra goals the goalkeeper caught than expected, or did not catch.

xSv% - (expected success of interventions): The success that the average goalkeeper would've, based on the number and danger of shots.

Sv% - (success of interventions):The actual success of goalkeeper interventions.

dSv% = Sv% - xSv%: The difference between the actual and expected success of the goalkeeper's interventions.

dSv% = 0 : Means that the goalkeeper catches on average. A positive number indicates above-average performance, a negative number on it's the opposite.

HDSv% - success of saves against highly dangerous shot (High)

MDSv% - success of saves against medium-dangerous shot (Medium)

LDSv% - success of saves against low-danger shot (Low)

Second graph (Carey Price's Save Difficulty in All Situations):

Y = Proportions of shots (saved) per game (in %)

Above there's the ''NHL goalie Truth or Fiction: Should teams still fear Carey Price?'' article that I posted. It's the post #725. It shows that with more details.

 

[Habs Halifax]

2020 is pulling out all of the stops! A 100% agreement between TLTQ and OC!

It happens from time to time. When it does, it must be 100% true!

 

[Genesis76]

I thought the point I was making was very clear.

Other than for a small stretch in 2009-10, Carey Price has always been a much better goalie than Jaroslav Halak. Halak had a very good two rounds in the playoffs ten years ago, and some people can't get over it.

Still not answering how Price is better. Look at their career stats. Halak is better there’s just no question any more.

Do you not have any arguments?

 

[Le Tricolore]

Still not answering how Price is better. Look at their career stats. Halak is better there’s just no question any more.

Do you not have any arguments?

Halak also played in front of the best team in the NHL last year, while playing less than half of their games,

Price played in front of one of the worst teams in the league and having no real backup to speak of, so he played more games in a season that was cut short than most starters play in a full season.

You're not going to change my mind on this, and I won't change yours though. Have a good one.

 

[DarkSender]

Would you mind explaining some of the context behind these graphs? My understanding of advanced stats isn't great. Even in the second graph, what does that per game refer to? I get the proportions of shots the he faces part, but what does the Y axis refer to? Chances/attempts? That doesn't seem right though, since there's no way any goalie sees 50+ slot passes per game, for example. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, just trying to understand.

My humble observation of this graph shows that for each category listed on the right, Carey faces these situations more than the average goalie in the league. For example, he receives around FOUR more slot passes per game than other goalies. That's how I interpreted the stats. I hope im not wrong...

 

[DarkSender]

Still not answering how Price is better. Look at their career stats. Halak is better there’s just no question any more.

Do you not have any arguments?

Boy you should stop this seriously... Price would have got around 8-10M$ in contract from any other GM in the league if they had the cap space. For the maximum number of years possible too. Halak can't even dream of that number. Stats are not everything you need to look up for. Especially when you compare a #1 and a #2 goalie.

 

[CanadienShark]

My humble observation of this graph shows that for each category listed on the right, Carey faces these situations more than the average goalie in the league. For example, he receives around FOUR more slot passes per game than other goalies. That's how I interpreted the stats. I hope im not wrong...

Yeah I get the relative comparison part, just wasn't sure how to interpret the rest of it.

 

[Treb]

Still not answering how Price is better. Look at their career stats. Halak is better there’s just no question any more.

Do you not have any arguments?

Halak is so good that he lost starting spots to Elliott, Greiss and Rask and cleared waivers in 2016-2017.

 

[peate]

What did we get for Halak anyway? Oh yeah, Lars Eller. Think Price is worth more?

 

[Treb]

What did we get for Halak anyway? Oh yeah, Lars Eller. Think Price is worth more?

To be fair, I recall reading that Gauthier did not even call all GMs and other GMs would have definitely beat Eller+ Schultz.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Halak is so good that he lost starting spots to Elliott, Greiss and Rask and cleared waivers in 2016-2017.

And what of our backups? Halak has had major health issues. WHat do you think we could have gotten for price is the real question? W got two late 2nd round draft picks for halak (Eller trade) Do you think Price has more value than say Shaw, esp for a team rebuilding? Would you trade Price for Shaw? Halak may not be a 60 game performer, but neither is price. Nore is anyone paying Halak 10.5 million. That is literally 1 million shy of a great tandem of goalies that don't get exhausted every single season.

His value in trade would have fetched a great 1st overall and good prospect. Price has more VALUE than Halak, but he doesn't bring 5 million more than halak. Take that money and we could have a LD to help out an OK goalie instead of pretending like a 10/5 million dollar player can do it entirely by himself with this pile of penis trimmings in front of him. I know we are sitting on piles of cap space, but if we had a 6 million dollar or even 8 million dollar goalie than we don't sign pickles, we get a 7 million dollar d man to actually help the goalie.*

*Of course a competent GM is required for these things to happen.

 

[Treb]

And what of our backups? Halak has had major health issues. WHat do you think we could have gotten for price is the real question? W got two late 2nd round draft picks for halak (Eller trade) Do you think Price has more value than say Shaw, esp for a team rebuilding? Would you trade Price for Shaw? Halak may not be a 60 game performer, but neither is price. Nore is anyone paying Halak 10.5 million. That is literally 1 million shy of a great tandem of goalies that don't get exhausted every single season.

His value in trade would have fetched a great 1st overall and good prospect. Price has more VALUE than Halak, but he doesn't bring 5 million more than halak. Take that money and we could have a LD to help out an OK goalie instead of pretending like a 10/5 million dollar player can do it entirely by himself with this pile of penis trimmings in front of him. I know we are sitting on piles of cap space, but if we had a 6 million dollar or even 8 million dollar goalie than we don't sign pickles, we get a 7 million dollar d man to actually help the goalie.*

*Of course a competent GM is required for these things to happen.

All this has nothing to do with Price being better than Halak, so I have no idea why you are quoting me.

 

[DarkSender]

And what of our backups? Halak has had major health issues. WHat do you think we could have gotten for price is the real question? W got two late 2nd round draft picks for halak (Eller trade) Do you think Price has more value than say Shaw, esp for a team rebuilding? Would you trade Price for Shaw? Halak may not be a 60 game performer, but neither is price. Nore is anyone paying Halak 10.5 million. That is literally 1 million shy of a great tandem of goalies that don't get exhausted every single season.

His value in trade would have fetched a great 1st overall and good prospect. Price has more VALUE than Halak, but he doesn't bring 5 million more than halak. Take that money and we could have a LD to help out an OK goalie instead of pretending like a 10/5 million dollar player can do it entirely by himself with this pile of penis trimmings in front of him. I know we are sitting on piles of cap space, but if we had a 6 million dollar or even 8 million dollar goalie than we don't sign pickles, we get a 7 million dollar d man to actually help the goalie.*

*Of course a competent GM is required for these things to happen.

Price is actually a 60 game performer.. However, we dont have good backups and always fear losing those 22 games he's not playing. So he's playing well over that mark every season he's healthy. He then performs less because of fatigue, stress and ect...

I haven't seen anyone arguing that Carey Price is WORTH giving 10.5M$. In fact, the purpose of this thread was to debate over his worth. His skills ? Everyone in the NHL today agrees that he is skilled and a really good goaltender.

 

[ahmedou]

Huet à propos de Price

«C’est tout un travail pour le gardien de but de devoir évoluer pour une équipe moyenne. On ne peut pas se permettre d’avoir une soirée de repos, parce qu’on sait que notre performance risque de faire la différence à la fin du match. Il faut être là tous les soirs.» []

«Ce qui m’a le plus renversé concernant Carey, toutefois, c’est lors de son premier match en carrière dans la LNH. La rencontre était disputée à Pittsburgh. Je me rappelle qu’il était vraiment tranquille. Pas du tout nerveux. Il y avait une caméra qui était rentrée dans le vestiaire avant le match et Carey avait pris le temps d’écrire un mot pour sa mère et l’avait montré en faisant un clin d’oeil! À son tout premier match professionnel! Son calme m’avait vraiment marqué. Les années ont passé et je me rends compte que c’est justement ce calme olympien qui lui a permis de réussir à s’établir comme il l’a fait. Un gardien qui parvient à rester calme en tout temps, cela se répercute sur son équipe entière. Tous les joueurs le sentent et cela fait des années maintenant que Carey amène cette apaisante facette à l’équipe.»

 

[nhlfan9191]

My reason for saying that was, I feel and have always felt that a strong top 6 and a good mid-tier NHL goalie are the way to go to build a successful team. We have relied on Price more than we should have and even made him our highest-paid player with holes all through the roster. Price gets blamed for the team's shortcomings because of his salary but the team in front of him has always been the problem. We have also struggled at the center ice position for years and Kopitar would have been a big step in the right direction, 15 years later and Phil Danault is our number one center and before him it was DD, that's just really bad.

I can’t say I disagree. We have lacked that superstar up front, especially center since we were winning cups. I just feel if nothing else had changed as far as how we built the teams over the years which is unlikely, we’d be sitting here either using Kopitar as a scapegoat or he would’ve just moved on or busted.

 

[OldCraig71]

I can’t say I disagree. We have lacked that superstar up front, especially center since we were winning cups. I just feel if nothing else had changed as far as how we built the teams over the years which is unlikely, we’d be sitting here either using Kopitar as a scapegoat or he would’ve just moved on or busted.

Well, we are still stumbling at the center position, we haven't prioritized it because of our over-reliance on Price. We are similar to the Rangers in that regard with Lundqvist over the years, competitive because of both of them but never good enough to win, the Rangers did fare much better than us but you get what I mean. A team needs a good one-two punch at center and a star number one D and while goaltending is extremely important I don't think that it should be a core position to build a team around and we are the proof. Luongo is another example that is similar to Price, great at his position but his contract handcuffed his team, it's not the right formula in my opinion.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Well, we are still stumbling at the center position, we haven't prioritized it because of our over-reliance on Price. We are similar to the Rangers in that regard with Lundqvist over the years, competitive because of both of them but never good enough to win, the Rangers did fare much better than us but you get what I mean. A team needs a good one-two punch at center and a star number one D and while goaltending is extremely important I don't think that it should be a core position to build a team around and we are the proof. Luongo is another example that is similar to Price, great at his position but his contract handcuffed his team, it's not the right formula in my opinion.

The contract I won’t even dispute. It was dumb. We’ve had dumb luck with goalies since Thibault. Whether it was Hackett, Theodore, Huet, Halak, Price, etc. A position that can be a nightmare for a lot of teams to find, just as much as centers or elite forwards has always seemed to work out for us. Whether systems played a big part in that is up for debate. As much as I think Therrien is trash, I don’t think it’s a complete fluke he has two different goalies playing under his system winning MVP’s, although Theodore was clearly a fluke whereas Price has always been an elite talent. The build from the net out tactic is super flawed, but I highly doubt if we drafted a guy like Kopitar, who is known for not only points in his peak but a very sound two way game, would’ve changed anything. Our managers still would’ve been trying to build with a hyper focus on keeping the puck out of the net ala the old New Jersey Devils model as opposed to adapting to the way the game has changed over the years.

 

[the]

Halak is so good that he lost starting spots to Elliott, Greiss and Rask and cleared waivers in 2016-2017.

Oh well, it could be worst I guess...

Imagine being Price and losing his starting spot to such a bum.