Career: Pavel Datsyuk or Patrick Kane?

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I wrote a long post that explains that higher up in the thread. Datsyuk could do that if he wanted to, it was just a waste of his ability

Which doesn't really track because Zetterberg did that job AND outscored Datsyuk in the playoffs.

If Dats could do that without sacrificing offense, seems like they would've given him that role. Your saying he could do that if he wanted to is based on little to no evidence.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Patrick Kane is a little bitch. Pavel Datsyuk is not.





Datsyuk for me.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Datsyuk had the gaudy takeaway stats. But when it came down to clutch defensive situations, Zetterberg was the first one over the boards, not Dats.

I'm not saying Datsyuk wasn't great, but Zetterberg was better.

Z was better at neutralizing a single player, dude was a fricking hound like that, dats was more of a take the play away and control the ice defense.
Didn't matter who had the puck, if Dats was on the ice, there was a pretty good chance he'd end up with it. Z on the other hand shut down crosby, toews (Didn't toews take like 3 or 4 penalties in a row from Z riding him till another hawk went over to the box and talked him off the ledge?).

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Z was better at neutralizing a single player, dude was a fricking hound like that, dats was more of a take the play away and control the ice defense.
Didn't matter who had the puck, if Dats was on the ice, there was a pretty good chance he'd end up with it. Z on the other hand shut down crosby, toews (Didn't toews take like 3 or 4 penalties in a row from Z riding him till another hawk went over to the box and talked him off the ledge?).

yeah I think it was Seabrook who did that. For all Toews "intangibles" and leadership there were a few key times Seabrook had to settle him down or call him out for not performing.

Great username by the way.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Three Cups.

I’m taking Kane and not looking over my shoulder once.

 

[chosen]

Kane beat a prime Sidney Crosby out for a Ross and Hart.



What was Datsyuk on the 2002 cup run?

Who was better than Kane in the three cup wins? Toews in 2010 you could argue but Kane was more consistent through every round and won the cup.



Datsyuk was never the best player in the league. Kane was.

In which season(s) was Kane the best player in the league?

 

[chosen]

I must have forgotten when Jamie Benn lead the playoffs in scoring on his way to a Smythe. Or when he won a Hart or Lindsay..

Kane in 15-16 was the best player in the league by any metric.

Kane has 5 regular season top 5 point finishes including a 1 and 2.

Datsyuk has two 4th overall finishes.

Last season, the players voted Crosby the best player in the league.

Crosby was better than Kane every season they both played and were healthy.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

15-16 when he swept every major award?



Datsyuk entered the league as a 3rd / 4th liner.

Kane immediately was the foundational player on the Hawks dynasty. From the moment he joined the league the Hawks were immediately a contender.

Kane was a top line player in 3 cup runs. Datsyuk was in 2.



I mean, I’m a Penguins fan. Crosby was viewed as the best player in the league heading into 15-16. McDavid was entering the league but who would you take at the start of that season over Sid.

Datsyuk entered the league as a 3rd/4th liner because the Red Wings literally had 9 Hall of Famers on that roster with 6 of them at forward. He was an extra forward on that team not because he was bad, but because they were one of the most stacked rosters in the existence of hockey.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That’s why Babcock chose to have Zetterberg shut down Crosby offensively instead of Datsyuk in the finals? I mean what does Babcock know anyway?

Zetterberg was a better "shutdown this one specific player" guy. He was just a damn bulldog. Datsyuk was a great defender because he was opportunistic and very very skilled at thievery. He played defense by the logic of "if I have the puck, you can't have it".

Babcock knew that about his players. So, if you just want to take the best player on the other team out (after you've already gotten a lead), Z was the choice. Tie game or trailing and you needed to shut down their offense while trying to score yourself? Datsyuk. Or both of them.

E: but f*** that, what’s situational hockey? Zetterberg was a superior 1 on 1 defender to Datsyuk. Datsyuk was far superior overall largely by in impacting possession through takeaways

 

[Sky04]

Datsyuk was easily more impactful, but don't expect HF to count defence.

Nah I'll take a guy who scores in clutch moments over the disappearing act Datsyuk had in the name of "defense", don't expect Datsyuk fanboys to remember that though.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Three Cups.

I’m taking Kane and not looking over my shoulder once.

This is an exceptionally shitty reason to pick one player over another.

 

[Oddbob]

Datsyuk entered the league as a 3rd/4th liner because the Red Wings literally had 9 Hall of Famers on that roster with 6 of them at forward. He was an extra forward on that team not because he was bad, but because they were one of the most stacked rosters in the existence of hockey.

If you are just going to bring logic about the roster to this, we can't even be friends!

 

[The Abusement Park]

This is an exceptionally shitty reason to pick one player over another.

When he was one of the 2 most important players on each of those wins it's a valid reason.

 

[SuperScript29]

Better career? Kane, but if you were to ask me which of the two I'd rather have at their very best, it's easily Datsyuk for me.

 

[mapleleafslaughssame]

I don't think it will always just even itself out. Hockey Outsider did a ton of research into a statistic called Vs X which attempts to compare players in different seasons in a way that adjusts for league scoring levels and outlier players. Here's where these two place on the different year ranges he's worked out:

Best 7 year average points
Kane: 96.2
Datsyuk: 82.5

Best 5 year average points
Kane: 101.2
Datsyuk: 85.2

Best 3 year average points
Kane: 105.2
Datsyuk: 88.6

That offensive gap seems pretty substantial to me.

Scoring is way up now do you really think your doing anything here you just wasted time getting all those numbers.

 

[Beau Knows]

Scoring is way up now do you really think your doing anything here you just wasted time getting all those numbers.

That's not how those numbers work, but good try

 

[Regal]

That's not how those numbers work, but good try

The two issues that make the numbers look worse for Datsyuk though are health and Kane having a huge outlier season. If we look at the VsX using points per game for the 5th player in points per game (because it’s an easier stable number than looking for outlier number 2s), we get this:

7 years:
Kane: 102.4
Datsyuk: 93.4

5 years:
Kane: 106.7
Datsyuk: 95.3

3 years:
Kane: 111.2
Datsyuk: 98

And if we take out Kane’s huge 126.5 outlier (when his next best are 107 then 100), and also take out Datsyuk’s best season, we get this:

7 years:
Kane: 96.8
Datsyuk: 91.2

5 years:
Kane: 99.9
Datsyuk: 93.1

3 years:
Kane: 102.3
Datsyuk: 95.1

Kane had by far the best offensive season out of the two, and was in general healthier, both big points in a career comparison. For most of their primes though, the difference offensive per game wasn’t huge.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

This is an exceptionally shitty reason to pick one player over another.

Says who?

I’m looking at careers in general and the success of said careers.

Kane was brought in to win Cups. Dats was chosen as a core player to win Cups. I will choose the guy who was more successful at it over somebody who wasn’t every time.

And plz, don’t point out some fourth line journeyman with a bunch of Cups. That meme is dated.

Datsyuk was never better then Patrick Kane. Ever. Kane came in and changed a franchise. Dats was given the torch to keep a winning tradition and flopped.

So much for this whole “but broooh he was so much better then Kane defensively “ when Kane wasn’t drafted to be a defensive player in the first place. He was brought in to win games and Cups, which he did.


.

 

[Sky04]

This is an exceptionally shitty reason to pick one player over another.

Not really considering Kanes role in all 3 cup wins.

 

[jaster]

Since Hawks fans weren't even able to watch NHL hockey until halfway through Datsyuk's career, no one should feel guilty about throwing their opinions on this matter directly into the garbage.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

What was Datsyuk on the 2002 cup run?

He was a rookie playing behind 3 Hall of Fame centers. Or if moved to the Wing playing behind 3 Hall of Fame wingers. Then throw in Draper and Maltby as the defensive specialists so Dats wasn't really going to get that ice time as a rookie either.

If you're talking about career I voted Kane, but using the 2002 Cup run as some kind of criticism of Datsyuk is ignorant.

At the very least it would've been better to take a shot at Dats for his lack of playoff goal scoring for three seasons after 2002, but that would require being familiar with his career.

 

[Gurglesons]

He was a rookie playing behind 3 Hall of Fame centers. Or if moved to the Wing playing behind 3 Hall of Fame wingers. Then throw in Draper and Maltby as the defensive specialists so Dats wasn't really going to get that ice time as a rookie either.

If you're talking about career I voted Kane, but using the 2002 Cup run as some kind of criticism of Datsyuk is ignorant.

At the very least it would've been better to take a shot at Dats for his lack of playoff goal scoring for three seasons after 2002, but that would require being familiar with his career.

I did both.

Also brought up the fact he was almost traded for Gomez.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I did both.

Also brought up the fact he was almost traded for Gomez.

Sure. Like Yzerman was "almost" traded too. Another weak criticism.

And the Selke is a trophy no one cares about? You're showing your ass on that one.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Says who?

I’m looking at careers in general and the success of said careers.

Kane was brought in to win Cups. Dats was chosen as a core player to win Cups. I will choose the guy who was more successful at it over somebody who wasn’t every time.

And plz, don’t point out some fourth line journeyman with a bunch of Cups. That meme is dated.

Datsyuk was never better then Patrick Kane. Ever. Kane came in and changed a franchise. Dats was given the torch to keep a winning tradition and flopped.

So much for this whole “but broooh he was so much better then Kane defensively “ when Kane wasn’t drafted to be a defensive player in the first place. He was brought in to win games and Cups, which he did.


.

Says logic. In 2009, if Patrick Sharp doesn't lance Nicklas Lidstrom in the ballsack, Datsyuk gets 2 Cups to his name as a core player. Cups are a team accomplishment and using them to prop up any one player is completely moronic. Was Ray Bourque a better player because he got dealt onto a holy shit stacked Colorado team to win a Cup?

And WHAT? Datsyuk was given the torch to keep a winning tradition and was part of a COMPLETE turnover from the absurdly stacked 01-02 team that got decimated by age and by the salary cap and the Wings were prohibitive favorites for the Cup from 2006-2010. Datsyuk being around is why the Wings limped along into the playoffs from 2012-2015 after Lidstrom retired. Those teams were completely decrepit and had a couple supreme talents that kept them meandering along. 12-13 Wings gave your boy Kane and his team all they could handle as a MASSIVE underdog, due in large part to Pavel Datsyuk.

Wings team that won in 2008 had six players in common with 2002... and let's be real. 2008 Chelios was NOT 2002 Chelios. 2008 Hasek was most certainly not 2002 Hasek. Same with McCarty. You could argue that Kris Draper was always gonna Kris Draper because he was an engine on skates. Dollar Bill Wirtz passing away and handing the team to Rocky may have had as much a change on the Blackhawks as anything else.

I won't even disagree on Kane > Datsyuk. Mathematically, it's in black and white. But it's closer than you're going to give it credit for, because you're tossing out Datsyuk's major defensive advantage because "Kane wasn't drafted to be a defensive player". If Datsyuk was solely a wing and his only job was to score, his offensive stats would be higher than they are. All the nonsense about "changing a franchise" is exactly that. Datsyuk was part of a complete turnover in Detroit after they had their salary limit cut literally in half. That's as much "changing a franchise" as coming in and making the shitty Blackhawks not shitty anymore. Which again, happened one hell of a lot more because they were able to displace Dollar Bill Wirtz who badly mismanaged the franchise for his son who let hockey people do hockey things.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Not really considering Kanes role in all 3 cup wins.

And if Patrick Sharp doesn't spear Lidstrom in the nuts in 2009, the Wings win that one and go back-to-back. The playoffs are way too much of a crapshoot to give someone a "three Cups greater than one Cups!" bump. There are several good reasons that you could and should put Kane above Datsyuk. Cups ain't it, bro.

Because as big a part as Kane had in those runs... Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford, Hossa, etc. all had similarly huge parts. Using Cups for an individual hockey player is like using wins to determine who is the best pitcher in MLB. A bygone era did it, but it's completely stupid because you can win or lose based on nothing to do with your performance.

Look at Detroit's performance with Datsyuk and without him. Datsyuk's decline to injury and his retirement mirrored Detroit's decline from prohibitive favorite to simply good team to playoff also-ran to worst team in the league.