Captain Boroweicki

[BonkTastic]

This is rich coming from the guy who post snapshots of graphs that don't go anywhere near telling the whole story though. To be fair, I just connected the dots with your avatar, so at least you're staying on brand.

Get with the times, man. Corsi is so last year.

Right now, garbage-tier variants on +/- with single-game sample sizes is the new hotness.

 

[God Says No]

6 hits from boro yesterday, 1 from demelo, no other d had a hit.

Defence is as soft as marshmellow.

Yes. That's why we lost yesterday. We didn't have enough hits.

 

[Knave]

You don't need corsi. You just need to watch him while he's on the ice to see what a disaster of a player he makes at the NHL level.

 

[solidprospect]

Yes. That's why we lost yesterday. We didn't have enough hits.

Never said that but doesn't surprise me that you jumped to that conclusion.

Like you think forwards running around in our end without being hit or checked is a good thing.

He shuts down Gaudreau and whoever he was playing against the leafs, and gets blamed for a goal in his own end by fans against Philly when the forward involved got benched. LoL.

 

[leftwinglocker]

Against the best player in the world.....

 

[God Says No]

Never said that but doesn't surprise me that you jumped to that conclusion.

Like you think forwards running around in our end without being hit or checked is a good thing.

He shuts down Gaudreau and whoever he was playing against the leafs, and gets blamed for a goal in his own end by fans against Philly when the forward involved got benched. LoL.

No you didn't outright say it, but it's what you insinuated. So how do you explain that CAL D had waaay less hits and still won?

 

[solidprospect]

No you didn't outright say it, but it's what you insinuated. So how do you explain that CAL D had waaay less hits and still won?

Because they're better than us?

Check our hits from today against Edmonton, much better, Jaros had 5. Not bone crushing hits either just let the guy know you're there at least. Our d had 14 hits.

 

[God Says No]

Because they're better than us?

Check our hits from today against Edmonton, much better, Jaros had 5. Not bone crushing hits either just let the guy know you're there at least. Our d had 14 hits.

You just contradicted yourself. In one breath you are saying they won because they are better, then you are again insinuating that because we had hits we won the game. I can tell you right now. There is very little correlation between the number of hits and wins. BUT, you are correct there is a high correlation between skill level and wins.

 

[Knave]

Against the best player in the world.....

View attachment 203857

Consider shifts last well over a minute for a defensemen, he had 22 "shifts" against McDavid for a total of a little more than 12 minutes.

All that says to me is Edmonton tried exploiting Borowiecki and we're lucky that despite getting caved in they only came away with a goal.

If you watched the game you could see if there was an opportunity to take Mark Borowiecki off the ice and put on Chabot against McDavid, Marc Crawford instructed his defense corps to do that. The overtime shows it clearly: They started McDavid, we started Chabot. If the coaching staff actually trusted Borowiecki they would have put him out to start OT seeing as we went with a 1-2 formation instead of traditional 2-1.

 

[BonkTastic]

Against the best player in the world.....

View attachment 203857

Yeah.

As the home team, Edmonton had the advantage of last line change, and tried to exploit the **** out of Boro.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Knave]

Yeah.

As the home team, Edmonton had the advantage of last line change, and tried to exploit the **** out of Boro.

Makes perfect sense to me.

And lets understand something here: Kucherov's points per 60 minutes (since this seems to be the new fad) is 4.7

McDavid against Borowiecki is basically scoring at that historic pace too. In that 4.5-5 range depending on exactly how many seconds you want to count Borowiecki as "on the ice" against McDavid since it's just a bar graph with no exact number (but it's around 12:XX).

If by shutting down McDavid you mean allowing him to score at a near-historic pace then yeah... I guess Borowiecki "shut him down" last night.

 

[solidprospect]

You just contradicted yourself. In one breath you are saying they won because they are better, then you are again insinuating that because we had hits we won the game. I can tell you right now. There is very little correlation between the number of hits and wins. BUT, you are correct there is a high correlation between skill level and wins.

I did no such thing, reading comprehension is hard for you and you like to jump to ridiculous conclusions.

You asked me why Calgary is better than Ottawa when then answer is pretty f***ing obvious dude.

Their is nothing wrong with asking your d to hit more , check more, or compete harder, you're just being silly because Calgary didn't have a lot of hits one game.

Maybe the puck wasn't in Calgarys end enough for their d to hit anyone, you ever think of that? Of course not.

Nobody said hits = wins,someone just said they'd like to see more of them, because it's obvious that's our problem, or even a step below that, checking and winning puck battles.

 

[solidprospect]

And lets understand something here: Kucherov's points per 60 minutes (since this seems to be the new fad) is 4.7

McDavid against Borowiecki is basically scoring at that historic pace too. In that 4.5-5 range depending on exactly how many seconds you want to count Borowiecki as "on the ice" against McDavid since it's just a bar graph with no exact number (but it's around 12:XX).

If by shutting down McDavid you mean allowing him to score at a near-historic pace then yeah... I guess Borowiecki "shut him down" last night.

How dare any defenceman not be able to completely shutdown Macdavid, this is unacceptable and I won't tolerate it, said every team in the NHL.

 

[solidprospect]

5 point per game players on Calgary and i'm being asked why they won.

 

[Knave]

How dare any defenceman not be able to completely shutdown Macdavid, this is unacceptable and I won't tolerate it, said every team in the NHL.

If you're selling Mark Borowiecki as a shut down defenseman surely he would be able to hold McDavid to a non-historic pace, right? If you're arguing he successfully shut down McDavid... the numbers should speak for themselves and say "Connor McDavid underperformed when Mark Borowiecki was on the ice against him". The numbers do not say that. The numbers say that McDavid scores at a near historic pace against Borowiecki. He scores better against Borowiecki than the average defenseman he faces.

 

[BonkTastic]

How dare any defenceman not be able to completely shutdown Macdavid, this is unacceptable and I won't tolerate it, said every team in the NHL.

The point was't made in a vaccuum - Daxi wasn't suggesting that Boro is bad BECAUSE he couldn't contain McDavid.

The point was made as a rebuttal against a REALLY bad take that suggested/implied that Boro was good, that ridiculously tried to use matchup data vs McDavid as some kind of proof of anything.

You missed the point of the post entirely.

 

[solidprospect]

If you're selling Mark Borowiecki as a shut down defenseman surely he would be able to hold McDavid to a non-historic pace, right? If you're arguing he successfully shut down McDavid... the numbers should speak for themselves and say "Connor McDavid underperformed when Mark Borowiecki was on the ice against him".

Every team plays their best d against macdavid and each of those d don't completely shut him down either. Truth.

 

[aragorn]

Consider shifts last well over a minute for a defensemen, he had 22 "shifts" against McDavid for a total of a little more than 12 minutes.

All that says to me is Edmonton tried exploiting Borowiecki and we're lucky that despite getting caved in they only came away with a goal.

If you watched the game you could see if there was an opportunity to take Mark Borowiecki off the ice and put on Chabot against McDavid, Marc Crawford instructed his defense corps to do that. The overtime shows it clearly: They started McDavid, we started Chabot. If the coaching staff actually trusted Borowiecki they would have put him out to start OT seeing as we went with a 1-2 formation instead of traditional 2-1.

McDavid has scored over a 100 pts this yr & they weren't all against Boro. Anyone who watches hockey knows that 3rd pairing defencemen rarely play 3 on 3 for obvious reasons. Boro is in there to add toughness to the blueline, to block shots, to play the PK, to make big hits, to separate players from the puck & to shut down the other team's best players. Most defenceman who have to go against the other team's best players constantly are probably going to be minus players given that those best players only need to get a goal or pt in a game to have won the battle between the two & the debate between fans. NO defenceman can stop offensive players consistently, good offensive players always manage to find a way to put up pts one way or another. The best they can do is to manage it & keep the scoring down & hope your goalie can help you out & let's not forget that McDavid has Draisaitl on his wing too. In Ottawa the goalies have not been able to help out their defence very much this yr. It's a team game & the forwards should also take some blame for not helping out more defensively.

In other words even if Boro wins 90% of the time against the better player, the better player only needs to score one goal for Boro to lose that debate. While people won't like it, I hear his name mentioned numerous times in breaking up plays, blocking shots, separating players from the puck & getting the puck out of the D-zone but as usual people only want to point out the times he gets beat, not all the times he makes a good play. Of course, when we point out that their favourite player gets beat then they get very defensive or try & point out how much more important that player is offensively or some such nonsense. It's a constant hate fest in here against Boro who works harder than most on this team on every shift.

 

[Knave]

Every team plays their best d against macdavid and each of those d don't completely shut him down either. Truth.

Who was expecting perfection? I'm just tired of the graphs so if we want to use misleading numbers:

McDavid scores at roughly ~1.3-1.4 goals per 60 minutes.

He scores between 4.5-5 goals per 60 minutes while Borowiecki is on the ice.

Truth.

Mark Borowiecki is over 3 times worse than the average NHL player at playing vs. McDavid.

Truth.


The real honest answer is the coaching staff would immediately change Borowiecki for Chabot if McDavid jumped on the ice. The same is true of that Gaudreau graph posted a few days earlier. The TOI and shift numbers spell it out plainly. Coaching staffs (we've gone through a whole bunch of coaches) do not trust Borowiecki to play well vs the top players.

I'm too lazy to dig into numbers and I don't really trust analytics to accurately measure players but I'm sure they support my eye test. It's not hard to see. Multiple times last night Borowiecki had 15-30 second shifts because he would immediately go to the bench if McDavid jumped on the ice.

 

[solidprospect]

Who was expecting perfection? I'm just tired of the graphs so if we want to use misleading numbers:

McDavid scores at roughly ~1.3-1.4 goals per 60 minutes.

He scores between 4.5-5 goals per 60 minutes while Borowiecki is on the ice.

Truth.

Mark Borowiecki is over 3 times worse than the average NHL player at playing vs. McDavid.

Truth.

LOL tired of graphs that show stats, stats that you're trying to show he's apparently bad, not sure where you're getting those numbers from but how dare anyone not be able to shutdown macdavid completely, damn nhl defenceman these days!

 

[Knave]

McDavid has scored over a 100 pts this yr & they weren't all against Boro. Anyone who watches hockey knows that 3rd pairing defencemen rarely play 3 on 3 for obvious reasons. Boro is in there to add toughness to the blueline, to block shots, to play the PK, to make big hits, to separate players from the puck & to shut down the other team's best players. Most defenceman who have to go against the other team's best players constantly are probably going to be minus players given that those best players only need to get a goal or pt in a game to have won the battle between the two & the debate between fans. NO defenceman can stop offensive players consistently, good offensive players always manage to find a way to put up pts one way or another. The best they can do is to manage it & keep the scoring down & hope your goalie can help you out & let's not forget that McDavid has Draisaitl on his wing too. In Ottawa the goalies have not been able to help out their defence very much this yr. It's a team game & the forwards should also take some blame for not helping out more defensively.

In other words even if Boro wins 90% of the time against the better player, the better player only needs to score one goal for Boro to lose that debate. While people won't like it, I hear his name mentioned numerous times in breaking up plays, blocking shots, separating players from the puck & getting the puck out of the D-zone but as usual people only want to point out the times he gets beat, not all the times he makes a good play. Of course, when we point out that their favourite player gets beat then they get very defensive or try & point out how much more important that player is offensively or some such nonsense. It's a constant hate fest in here against Boro who works harder than most on this team on every shift.

Last time I checked this is the NHL and just like I won't accept Dorion's "A FOR EFFORT" bullshit, I'm not going to accept "Mark Borowiecki works really hard". Sports is results based. Mark Borowiecki's results are terrible and yet we keep re-signing him and playing him.

And yes, there are 4 other players on the ice and a goalie but at a certain point if the goalie changes, the defensive partner changes, the forward lines change... the only common denominator in Borowiecki's awful stat lines is.... Mark Borowiecki. If everything changes and you (Borowiecki) stay the same... and we still lose the game or get outscored... YOU are the problem, not the 4 other guys and the goalie.

 

[solidprospect]

Another chart. xgf/xga for macdavid wasn't very good against Ottawa, somehow. you can barely see macdavid but he's there on the bottom left when he's usually upper right.

 

[Knave]

Another chart. xgf/xga for macdavid wasn't very good against Ottawa, somehow. you can barely see macdavid but he's there on the bottom left when he's usually upper right.

Right, because Chabot was on the ice and Ottawa scored.

Now filter out our good players making McDavid look bad and lets see how he does against Borowiecki.

 

[solidprospect]

Right, because Chabot was on the ice and Ottawa scored.

Now filter out our good players making McDavid look bad and lets see how he does against Borowiecki.

Filter out the players making Boro look bad and you might have an equal playing field, almost. Are we really comparing Boro to Macdavid , as aragorn said a third paring d to a 1st overall pick and boro does reasonably well.

10 million dollars+ vs 1 million...lol

 

[Knave]

Filter out the players making Boro look bad and you might have something. Are we really comparing Boro to Macdavid , as aragorn said a third paring d to a 1st overall pick.

Who is saying this isn't a superstar against a borderline NHLer?