Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 "Season" Pt. 3

[g00n]

It is two different things. I may like it or not it doesn't make the rule good. The same goes for you. You may like it or not, this rule is bad.

Your opinion.

 

[francaisvolantsparis]

Your opinion.

We are lucky, We can discuss our opinions freely. And no politburo bolshevik here to oppress us.

 

[HTFN]

We are lucky, We can discuss our opinions freely. And no politburo bolshevik here to oppress us.

Certainly a lot of American politics though. "Most people", "believe me, this is a bad thing", "prove it so I can ignore it", turning it into a war against stats instead of clutter and accessibility.

 

[francaisvolantsparis]

Certainly a lot of American politics though. "Most people", "believe me, this is a bad thing", "prove it so I can ignore it", turning it into a war against stats instead of clutter and accessibility.

This "clutter and accessibility" is a fabricated argument. Nothing in the @twabby post was "clutter and accessibility" offending. It was hypocritic to bring it here.

 

[Calicaps]

This "clutter and accessibility" is a fabricated argument. Nothing in the @twabby post was "clutter and accessibility" offending. It was hypocritic to bring it here.

You misunderstand. It's an issue of the thread and walls of graphics. It makes it very hard to have other conversations. But whatever. It's our rule and will be enforced.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

I enjoy Twabby's posts with the graphs because he takes the time to explain them and is honest about their limitations or weaknesses. I have learned a lot, to be honest.

I certainly don't see eye to eye on all things (ie Tom Wilson) but I think it is a bit of a mistake to segregate his analytics to one thread. Then you'll have one sided opinions on certain subjects. (Kuz)
The forum will be poorer, for it. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Calicaps]

I enjoy Twabby's posts with the graphs because he takes the time to explain them and is honest about their limitations or weaknesses. I have learned a lot, to be honest.

I certainly don't see eye to eye on all things (ie Tom Wilson) but I think it is a bit of a mistake to segregate his analytics to one thread. Then you'll have one sided opinions on certain subjects. (Kuz)
The forum will be poorer, for it. Just my opinion, of course.

This is the final time I will say this: stats are not prohibited in the general thread. But pages and pages of graphs and walls of text must go to the stat thread or if it's only one chart-heavy post, use colapse tags. You can link in the general thread to the stat post too. This is our rule. It has been in place for ~7 years. That is all.

 

[Melkor]

The fancy stats are trash. Someone needed to say this. All for sending them on another board, let alone another thread.

 

[g00n]

This is the final.time I will say this: stats are not prohibited in the general thread. But pages and pages of graphs and walls of text must go to the stat thread or if it's only one chart-heavy post, use colapse tags. You can link in the general thread to the stat post too. This is our rule. It has been in place for ~7 years. That is all.

This.

To the 3 or 4 people who keep saying it....NOBODY IS BANNING STATS FROM THE THREAD.

Go ahead and post the stats. Just be aware that if you post like 5 heat maps and 3 charts and a threadbomb explanation of said graphics, and it just keeps going like that to the point of spamming, there's a good chance your post will be moved to the Analytics thread.

Or if the discussion becomes more about the validity of the stats, or esoteric details of the stats only a few enthusiasts understand, such that the discussion wanders too far OT then there's a good chance your post will be moved to the Analytics thread.

This has always been the case with this rule. So can we stop the false narrative that stats are banned? They're not.

K? K.

 

[hb12xchamps]

Perhaps there should be a thread for those who refuse to read analytics, rather than attempting to stifle legitimate roster discussion? The stat haters can have their own safe space.

Yes, let’s make the majority of posters here go to a non stats thread instead of the stat nerds going to a thread that’s already on the forum. Makes sense!

So again, why isn't there an intangibles thread? Why isn't there an eye-test thread? Why isn't there an appeal to authority thread? Those aren't typically my favorite types of arguments, but I'm perfectly willing to either engage with them or ignore them in this thread and am not asking them to be cast off somewhere else.

How do I engage with people who make a claim in this thread that I disagree (or agree) with? Ask them to go to the stats thread (which they may or may not do) and then merge the discussion from that thread back into this thread? It's unnecessarily tedious, when the alternative is to just ask people to either scroll past analytics posts or simply put me or others on ignore.

Something tells me that if the majority of the recent analytics discussion was focused on Zdeno Chara and how he's been really good, or if I was making the argument that Kuznetsov has been bad that we wouldn't be having this discussion about moving it to the stats thread. It's only because the current discussion is about a polarizing figure in Kuznetsov where I'm taking the unpopular side that I'm being asked to go to a different thread.

Sorry, this seems like a bunch of crap and I'd prefer to keep discussing it here.

Jesus just use the collapse function and this won’t be an issue. This site already is borderline unreadable on mobile and posts with multiple charts and graphs make it so much worse

 

[AussieCapsFan]

I've put on my ignore list ~ten 13yo Kuzy haters and useless trolls including one mod and now my experience on these boards is so good. It is night and day. No need to read all these jalous nervous p**ps trolls do then thet hear Kuzy name or someone say something on their foreverhurt God Nicklas Backslow

I feel like the only reason you're having any kind of experience on this board is because most of us haven't put you on ignore because it's more entertaining to laugh at your constantly ill informed / ignorant opinions.

 

[AussieCapsFan]

I feel like if you can’t make your case in a decent paragraph or 2, you’re spinning your wheels and wasting everyone’s valuable time.

If the diversionary tactics/whataboutisms were removed, intellectual succinctness would be achieved and appreciated by all.

and FWIW that mod who made the stat rule was a total diiiiick, but he ran a tight ship!

I hate to point out the irony of this, but didn't you and several others spend about 30 pages arguing about COVID vaccinations
And then another 30 arguing about the Wilson hit? If ever there was a benchmark for failing to make a case succinctly, surely that was it?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I hate to point out the irony of this, but didn't you and several others spend about 30 pages arguing about COVID vaccinations
And then another 30 arguing about the Wilson hit? If ever there was a benchmark for failing to make a case succinctly, surely that was it?

I’ve never once made a single post made up of two entire screens full of eye bleeding charts and graphs and mind numbing analysis.....

so yeah. Anything else?

That’s the point of this all isn’t it....back and forth is fine.....gigantic posts filled with stuff that makes following the conversation taxing or even unbearable is what people seem to be taking issue with here today.

I’m not even at the forefront of this....the Mods are handling it....don’t like it, address it with them.

 

[Calicaps]

Ok enough. Local forum rule #12 is in effect. Everyone just move on before this becomes its own spam. Sweet Jeebus.

 

[AussieCapsFan]

I’ve never once made a single post made up of two entire screens full of eye bleeding charts and graphs and mind numbing analysis.....

so yeah. Anything else?

That’s the point of this all isn’t it....back and forth is fine.....gigantic posts filled with stuff that makes following the conversation taxing or even unbearable is what people seem to be taking issue with here today.

I’m not even at the forefront of this....the Mods are handling it....don’t like it, address it with them.

Can the Devil not have more than one advocate? That seems unfair

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

This is the final time I will say this: stats are not prohibited in the general thread. But pages and pages of graphs and walls of text must go to the stat thread or if it's only one chart-heavy post, use colapse tags. You can link in the general thread to the stat post too. This is our rule. It has been in place for ~7 years. That is all.

No worries. Spoiler tags should work.

 

[traparatus]

This is the final time I will say this: stats are not prohibited in the general thread. But pages and pages of graphs and walls of text must go to the stat thread or if it's only one chart-heavy post, use colapse tags. You can link in the general thread to the stat post too. This is our rule. It has been in place for ~7 years. That is all.

Out of curiosity, who are the 'we' in 'this is our rule?

 

[Calicaps]

Out of curiosity, who are the 'we' in 'this is our rule?

The hfcaps board. It’s a local rule that was put in place about 7 years ago in response to requests from multiple posters (not by me). See the pinned “Local Rules” thread for more info.

 

[traparatus]

The hfcaps board. It’s a local rule that was put in place about 7 years ago in response to requests from multiple posters (not by me). See the pinned “Local Rules” thread for more info.

I see.

Seems to me that while Caps have enjoyed a prolonged period of success, this discussion board remains one of the least active on HF. I am all in favor of long, well-reasoned and coherently formulated posts, even if they do contain some offensive graphs. It generates hockey discussion on a discussion board were more often than not nobody has anything to say.

Just my opinion, though I'm not sure it counts for anything.

 

[Ridley Simon]

In an attempt to try to figure out how to judge Kuznetsov's xGF% based on zone start ratio, I made a scatterplot based on data from Evolving Hockey:

View attachment 408186

This is every player-season from 2014-15 until now, with a minimum of 250 minutes played (since Kuznetsov is just above 250 minutes this year at 5v5, that is why I chose the cutoff at 250).

The x-axis is the zone start ratio. Players further to the left get heavy defensive zone starts, and players on the right get a lot of offensive zone starts.

The y-axis is the xGF%. Higher is better, 50% is average.

Circled in red is Kuznetsov from this season. He is certainly getting a ton of o-zone starts, but based on the rest of the plot doesn't it seem like despite getting these soft starts he's doing well with them? At the very least it seems difficult to make the case that he's doing poorly with these starts.

Ok.

That simply looks like a Solar System to me.

or perhaps

my 2yr old son dropping his glass of milk on the wooden floor.

I haven’t decided yet

 

[Ridley Simon]

Perhaps there should be a thread for those who refuse to read analytics, rather than attempting to stifle legitimate roster discussion? The stat haters can have their own safe space.

LOL. [mod edit]

There are so many things I could point to, about the hypocrisy of this comment.

This particular poster commenting about “stifling” anything is massive eye roll. Right.

Irony at its finest

 

[Ridley Simon]

Some jerkwad powermad mod addressed this in the OP of the fancy stats thread years ago:

View attachment 408237

I know that guy!!!

 

[Ridley Simon]

The fancy stats are trash. Someone needed to say this. All for sending them on another board, let alone another thread.

LOL. I enjoyed and agreed with this. Well said. And I mean it.

I will say I fully respect @twabby. He is eloquent, extremely (amazingly so) tolerant of other posters, and handles himself better than 95% of the posters on here (including me). So this isn’t about him.

but I think the overthought of analytics is hard to follow sometimes. Not because it’s over anyone’s head, but it’s like reading a math book, when we are here to read snippets. It’s not a fault of the math writers, more the majority of us that need the quick hits and readily absorbable commentary. Many just don’t have the time to drill down on the heavily stat laden posts.

and for me personally? When a few smug self indulged egocentric posters are fighting for it like it’s their Community College “Harvard” Degrees at stake, it turns me off even more (and again, that’s not @twabby even a little bit.....massive respect for him).

 

[txpd]

Holy schnickies. You guys know the team is running at another president's trophy. We have real world problems to worry about around here.

 

[g00n]

I see.

Seems to me that while Caps have enjoyed a prolonged period of success, this discussion board remains one of the least active on HF. I am all in favor of long, well-reasoned and coherently formulated posts, even if they do contain some offensive graphs. It generates hockey discussion on a discussion board were more often than not nobody has anything to say.

Just my opinion, though I'm not sure it counts for anything.

This board has long been one of the least-active due to relative fanbase size, at least compared to our northern rivals. It has nothing to do with stifling discussion.

In fact, in previous years there were far more one-off threads created but many new posters found themselves turned off by the relentless and immediate attacks, and the threads usually went nowhere. A few devotees of analytics (mostly Twabby) began running threads with large, deep posts about stats most didn't understand or believe in, which caused the team talk to devolve into off-topic arguing about the stats themselves. This turned more people off and drove them away, so we addressed the problem by including the option to go deeper than usual (and debate the theoretical stat accuracy) in a dedicated thread.

We made the forum more accessible and organized so people could interact and become part of our community, which has always been small but tight. Creating a dedicated thread for extra discussion of analytics doesn't change that.

As for growing the community, we probably won't see another massive spike in interest in the Caps for a long time since the previous spikes are unrepeatable (Ovechkin prime and rise to prominence, and first ever Cup).