Salary Cap: Cap Space For Sale

[danielpalfredsson]

Marleau wouldn't be coming to Ottawa, in my proposal he would then be flipped to SJS. In the other proposal he could agree to come on the basis that he is then flipped to another contender of his choosing.

I originally read someone on the main board with the idea of Ottawa flipping him to San Jose.

I think it's the only thing that makes sense. TOR pays his bonus July 1st. Sends him to OTT with an asset. OTT retains half and sends him to San Jose.

With that said, San Jose may not even be able to fit him in at half retained. They have Pavelski and Karlsson to pay, among others.

There's a bunch of other scenarios I can think of, but all of them seem like things that wouldn't be approved by the NHL since most involved the Leafs paying his bonus and then something fishy happening. Such as. the Leafs paying his bonus, flipping him with an asset to the Senators, and then Marleau retiring. (35+ contract, cap hit sticks if he retires). Or the Leafs paying his bonus, sending him to Ottawa who buys him out, and then he re-signs in Toronto for league minimum which would mean he'd stay in TOR and make a little bit extra overall.

Most of the ideas circumvent how signing bonuses stay on the books of the team that pays them, but don't count towards the cap once they are paid. So if TOR pays his bonus and trades him the next day, the other team doesn't have to repay the bonus, but TOR loses the entire cap hit despite already paying Marleau's bonus.

 

[Clayonator]

I originally read someone on the main board with the idea of Ottawa flipping him to San Jose.

I think it's the only thing that makes sense. TOR pays his bonus July 1st. Sends him to OTT with an asset. OTT retains half and sends him to San Jose.

With that said, San Jose may not even be able to fit him in at half retained. They have Pavelski and Karlsson to pay, among others.

There's a bunch of other scenarios I can think of, but all of them seem like things that wouldn't be approved by the NHL since most involved the Leafs paying his bonus and then something fishy happening. Such as. the Leafs paying his bonus, flipping him with an asset to the Senators, and then Marleau retiring. (35+ contract, cap hit sticks if he retires). Or the Leafs paying his bonus, sending him to Ottawa who buys him out, and then he re-signs in Toronto for league minimum which would mean he'd stay in TOR and make a little bit extra overall.

Most of the ideas circumvent how signing bonuses stay on the books of the team that pays them, but don't count towards the cap once they are paid. So if TOR pays his bonus and trades him the next day, the other team doesn't have to repay the bonus, but TOR loses the entire cap hit despite already paying Marleau's bonus.

If they can’t re sign one of Pavelski/Karlsson it looks a lot more feasible.

 

[Clayonator]

I just looked on capgeek.com... the full list is:

Duclair
Ceci
Hogberg
Paul
Rodewald
Tambellini
Klimchuk

I think the only two guys who might file are Duclair and Ceci.

I posted in the trade thread about dealing Ceci + Tierney + 2nd for Nylander, Zaitsev and Marleau (who we then buy out as you outlined). Maybe we throw in Condon too.

Basically, Nylander, Zaitsev + Marleau's buyout would only count as ~2.75mil in real salary if the trade is made after July 1st. Leafs gain ~15mil in cap space, upgrade their RD, gain a cheap young C who can replace some of Nylanders offense, and a decent pick too

Could be mutually beneficial

Would do this in a heartbeat. Brilliant.

 

[Ouroboros]

The second buyout window can only be used on players that were on a team's reserve list as of the previous trade deadline, so the Sens can't trade for Marleau and then use an arbitration triggered buyout on him. We'd have to take him prior to the end of the initial buyout period [ending June 30th] and buy him out then, like the Avs did with Orpik. The Sens won't do that because it's before Marleau's bonus is paid. Besides - Marleau would have to agree to all this anyway, which seems unlikely.

I don't anticipate the Senators doing anything that adds any substantial real money expenses to the ledger. They've talked about how valuable cap space is in the past and not done anything to leverage it. Surely I'm not the only one who remembers Melnyk going on Toronto radio and saying that having as much cap space as the Sens do is "like having 3 first round picks!1!1!". They didn't do anything with it then and they won't do anything with it now.

 

[DrEasy]

What I would do:

1- acquire a bad contract along with some assets from a team with cap issues;
2- the player with the bad contract hates playing here in our gong show and therefore retires on the spot;
3- profit! Didn't have the pay the player, and got assets for him anyway!

 

[Larionov]

Like others, I can't see Melnyk being willing to actually add to his payroll, regardless of what he may say to the media. The other flaw with these plans is that all of these guys with ugly contracts (Marleau, Lucic, Ericksson, etc.) all have full NMCs. To say that we are not a destination of choice for veterans would be a significant understatement.

 

[Sen sational]

Vegas site on HF has a discussion of their cap space issues. They are at a cap hit of approximately $83 million without signing William Karlsson and others. They are suggesting that Clarkson's LTIR $5.25 million cap hit should be traded along with Reaves to try to free up cap space.

Clarkson has one year left and he is owed $1 million after his bonus is paid, although they also suggest it is insured. Either way there is very little real money owed. Ottawa could take a 2nd round pick in 2019 or 2020 as one option, or Vegas currently is at 17th in first round (could go to 16) if there was something Ottawa really wanted they might move up and take a 3rd instead of a 2nd.

Reaves has one year left at $3 million, they think he is overpaid. Ottawa might consider taking him as a package deal with Clarkson for a 1st. Would certainly add grit to the lineup and give the young guys some protection.

 

[stempniaksen]

Vegas site on HF has a discussion of their cap space issues. They are at a cap hit of approximately $83 million without signing William Karlsson and others. They are suggesting that Clarkson's LTIR $5.25 million cap hit should be traded along with Reaves to try to free up cap space.

Clarkson has one year left and he is owed $1 million after his bonus is paid, although they also suggest it is insured. Either way there is very little real money owed. Ottawa could take a 2nd round pick in 2019 or 2020 as one option, or Vegas currently is at 17th in first round (could go to 16) if there was something Ottawa really wanted they might move up and take a 3rd instead of a 2nd.

Reaves has one year left at $3 million, they think he is overpaid. Ottawa might consider taking him as a package deal with Clarkson for a 1st. Would certainly add grit to the lineup and give the young guys some protection.

I would LOVE Reaves and a pick for the small price of whatever is owed to Clarkson (20% of $1 million post signing bonus, so ~$200k?) and that's exactly the type of deal the team should be looking to make.

I doubt McPhee and Gallant see Reaves as a full blown cap dump though, he still has an important role on that team.

 

[ottawah]

We shouldn't ever have an issue hitting the floor. Even this upcoming season we're already at 45 million with only 14 players signed. Cap floor should be at 60 give or take. If there is any truth to both Ceci and the Senators being mutually interested in an extension, that brings us up to 50 million with 15 signed. Colin White on a bridge (I think we should go long term though) is 2 million minimum, 52 with 16 signed. At that point, it's a non-issue since we only have to spend an average of 1.15 million on 7 skates to hit a 60 million floor.

Even long term, we'll have no issue hitting the floor. Chabot is going to take 7-9 million on a 6-8 year deal. Tkachuk will be in a similar range. White is more difficult to predict. If we bridge him, we could be looking at 5-6 million on his third contract.

A starting goalie will always cost 4.5 million or more. There might be transitional periods where a team has a starter on their RFA deal, but that usually doesn't last very long. Whether Gustavsson or Daccord become a starter, or we sign/trade for one, we probably pay around 4.5 or higher for a starter.

I think Batherson is going to break out, and unless we idiotically bridge him, he'll be making close to 7 million if not more starting in 2022.

Pageau is a UFA. There hasn't been a lot of talk about whether we will trade or re-sign him, but he will cost in excess of 4 million to re-sign, maybe 4.5.

About 3 years from now, I think Chabot, Ceci, Brannstrom, White, Batherson, Tkachuk, JGP, and a starting goalie could easily take up 45-50 million in cap space. That's only 7/23 players. I really don't think we'll ever have trouble hitting the floor.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't use our cap space to take on low salary/high cap hit contracts to get assets, but I think people are wrong when they perceive the Senators hitting the floor as being a problem.

I think you are making my point, not the opposite. Tkachuk, White (if on a bridge), batherson, branstrom are not up next year. and your goalie quote is below what we are paying now.

2 years from now will not be an issue, now is not an issue, it is next year. I see us in 16 months time being 25M+ short of the floor. I have no clue whatsoever how you make that up without drastically overpaying and forcing some kids ot play in the minors.

 

[ottawah]

Depending on the length of the deals it's entirely possible Chabot, Tkachuk and White eat up $20+ million of the money coming off the books. Add in another $3/4 million for Pageau/Tierney + Wolanin and that space is gone in a hurry.

I really don't think the floor will affect this team at any point in the coming years. We'll be tight, obviously, but not tight enough to seriously worry about it.

Tkachuk is not up. I budgeted 12M is raises for the other 3. Play 7M in raises for Duclair and Tierney. and am still 26M short of the floor in 16 months.

 

[Ouroboros]

I think you are making my point, not the opposite. Tkachuk, White (if on a bridge), batherson, branstrom are not up next year. and your goalie quote is below what we are paying now.

2 years from now will not be an issue, now is not an issue, it is next year. I see us in 16 months time being 25M+ short of the floor. I have no clue whatsoever how you make that up without drastically overpaying and forcing some kids ot play in the minors.

It's very difficult to project a roster and salary structure for 20/21 because we have so few players under contract. As of today, the only money the Sens have committed for that season are Bobby Ryan, Zack Smith, Brady Tkachuk [ELC], Marian Gaborik [LOL] and Dion Phaneuf's retention [double LOL]. A lot depends on what they do with Chabot, White, Tierney, Wolanin, Duclair and others. So a lot of assumptions and projections have to be factored in.

That said - the following skeleton would suggest that getting to the floor won't be much of an issue:

Tkachuk [.925] - White [3.5] - Batherson [.736666]
Duclair [1.5] - Brown [.863333] - Ryan [7.25]
Formenton [.753333] - Pageau [4.0] - Balcers [1.5]
Tierney [3.75] - Smith [3.25] - Davidsson [.768333]
Veteran/Scrub [1]

Chabot [8] - Demelo [4]
Brannstrom [.894166] - Ceci [4.75]
Boro [1] - Jaros [1.5]
Wolanin [1.25]

X
Hogberg [1]

Gaborik [4.875]
Phaneuf [1.75]

That team is at just under 59M and it doesn't have a goalie. Once they pay 4.5-5.0M for a starter they'll be there.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

It's very difficult to project a roster and salary structure for 20/21 because we have so few players under contract. As of today, the only money the Sens have committed for that season are Bobby Ryan, Zack Smith, Brady Tkachuk [ELC], Marian Gaborik [LOL] and Dion Phaneuf's retention [double LOL]. A lot depends on what they do with Chabot, White, Tierney, Wolanin, Duclair and others. So a lot of assumptions and projections have to be factored in.

That said - the following skeleton would suggest that getting to the floor won't be much of an issue:

Tkachuk [.925] - White [3.5] - Batherson [.736666]
Duclair [1.5] - Brown [.863333] - Ryan [7.25]
Formenton [.753333] - Pageau [4.0] - Balcers [1.5]
Tierney [3.75] - Smith [3.25] - Davidsson [.768333]
Veteran/Scrub [1]

Chabot [8] - Demelo [4]
Brannstrom [.894166] - Ceci [4.75]
Boro [1] - Jaros [1.5]
Wolanin [1.25]

X
Hogberg [1]

Gaborik [4.875]
Phaneuf [1.75]

That team is at just under 59M and it doesn't have a goalie. Once they pay 4.5-5.0M for a starter they'll be there.

Yeah, and if anything, salary wise while I think your projections for most of the salaries other than Demelo are pretty close to what I'd expect, I also think they are more on the conservative side of close.

I think you are making my point, not the opposite. Tkachuk, White (if on a bridge), batherson, branstrom are not up next year. and your goalie quote is below what we are paying now.

2 years from now will not be an issue, now is not an issue, it is next year. I see us in 16 months time being 25M+ short of the floor. I have no clue whatsoever how you make that up without drastically overpaying and forcing some kids ot play in the minors.

Poster above did a good job of illustrating something close to what I think, so I won't re-iterate it.

Sens cap floor issue has always been way overblown. I still think we're going to need to get an insured LTIR contract because we are going to want a buffer to keep us above the floor if there are opportunities to deal cap in season (that goes for 19-20 and 20-21), but I don't see it as a scenario where we are going to be sweating to hit the cap floor.

 

[aragorn]

I don't mind the idea of acquiring a bad contract or two for picks especially 2nd rd picks in the upcoming drafts.

 

[NB613]

Vegas site on HF has a discussion of their cap space issues. They are at a cap hit of approximately $83 million without signing William Karlsson and others. They are suggesting that Clarkson's LTIR $5.25 million cap hit should be traded along with Reaves to try to free up cap space.

Clarkson has one year left and he is owed $1 million after his bonus is paid, although they also suggest it is insured. Either way there is very little real money owed. Ottawa could take a 2nd round pick in 2019 or 2020 as one option, or Vegas currently is at 17th in first round (could go to 16) if there was something Ottawa really wanted they might move up and take a 3rd instead of a 2nd.

Reaves has one year left at $3 million, they think he is overpaid. Ottawa might consider taking him as a package deal with Clarkson for a 1st. Would certainly add grit to the lineup and give the young guys some protection.

Replace Reaves with Colin Miller (and we add a later pick)

 

[DJB]

The only one that makes sense is bringing in Clarkson and that insured contract

 

[Qward]

Ryan McDonagh is getting 8.4M in salary this season. Ooof.


David Backes is getting $4m per year next two years, but cap hit is $6M.

Might be able to swing that. Backes and Axel Andersson for an AHL plug.

 

[Sen sational]

Dallas might need some cap help, Martin Hanzal may not be able to return (from HF board) and they already have Stephen Johns on IR. They need to sign Zucc and 6 others and are at about $65 million. Given their success in the playoffs they may go after some UFAs and want to make sure they have cap space at the TDL as well. Potential opportunity.

 

[Sen sational]

Per Dorion on TSN1200, Ottawa has received calls from teams looking to have Ottawa "take on contracts". Be nice to use our cap space to improve the team.

 

[BatherSeason]

Per Dorion on TSN1200, Ottawa has received calls from teams looking to have Ottawa "take on contracts". Be nice to use our cap space to improve the team.

What was his answer?? Was it "Mr Melnyk has reassured me that money is not an object as long as it helps improve the Ottawa Senators"

 

[NorthCoast]

What was his answer?? Was it "Mr Melnyk has reassured me that money is not an object as long as it helps improve the Ottawa Senators"

Exactly. Hence why we have not spent any money...because the team is already perfect. Duh!


It's also why he stuck PD with the lunch bill...because PD's baconator wasn't going to help them either.

 

[NorthCoast]

Per Dorion on TSN1200, Ottawa has received calls from teams looking to have Ottawa "take on contracts". Be nice to use our cap space to improve the team.

You know the league respects you when...


Nothing against using cap space to our advantage. Just never thought it would be our team identity.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

You know the league respects you when...


Nothing against using cap space to our advantage. Just never thought it would be our team identity.

This is probably what Melnyk means when he says we'll be a cap team by 2021 or whenever. I truly believe he just thinks fans think cap=salary and we'll have a bunch of LTIR contracts to reach the cap ceiling.

I'll be surprised if this isn't the case.

 

[Upgrayedd]

What was his answer?? Was it "Mr Melnyk has reassured me that money is not an object as long as it helps improve the Ottawa Senators"

To the media likely, to those teams calling, likely a bit of laughing followed by sobbing....nobody is doing the worst owner in sports any favours and Eugene can't even afford to keep our own home grown talent...like was previously discussed these teams are calling to see what Gene and Pierre are willing to give for their insured ltir players.

 

[aragorn]

I would only take on a bad contract if it somehow also got us a 1st or 2nd rd pick in this yr's draft.

 

[Sen sational]

I would only take on a bad contract if it somehow also got us a 1st or 2nd rd pick in this yr's draft.

Callahan and a 2nd, he gets to play lots of minutes to showcase himself for the TDL, at which point Ottawa retains 50% and trades to a playoff team for a pick. Character in the locker room until the trade.