Post-Game Talk: Canucks def. Avs - 4-2 (Kuzmenko x2, Boeser, Miller)

[sting101]

Overpaying for bad players is what got us into this mess, not retaining the team's best players.

Yes if we just kept Toffoli and Tanev the players would have understood moving away from Virtanen Stecher and Markstrom and we would have had 2 very good core guys on good contracts vs losing the 9OA 2nd and Garland OEL on worse deals.

 

[LordBacon]

This is basically a middling team getting terrible goaltending when excellent goaltending was expected.

Pettersson/Hughes/Kuzmenko/Horvat/Demko is not some sort of old, broken-down core. Your analogy is also terrible.

Anyone supporting trading Kuzmenko/Horvat for crappy rental packages should also be supporting trading Pettersson right now, too. If you're supporting trading those guys and not on board to sell sell sell on Pettersson, then you're stuck in nowhere land being dazzled by magic beans.

If you trade Kuzmenko/Horvat, there is no way back to competing during our team control on Pettersson.

Look back at my comments from tank post.
Im all for trading petey if the return is right.
This group is going nowhere, their record supports my view.

Also, betting on god like goaltending just for the team to sneak into the playoffs as your team building strategy sounds silly.

Mcdrai are arguably the best duo in the league right now and the oilers arent exactly a sure playoffs team either. Theyre exactly whats going to happen to this franchise, right in no man's land for the next decade because they cant take a step back in the short term to improve long term.

Edit: My b, thought this post was directed at me.

 

[wonton15]

Can’t hate Lazar. He’s a great glue guy

 

[iFan]

If you're trading Kuzmenko/Horvat now, this team isn't competing while we have team control on Pettersson and he'll be forcing his way out at the earliest opportunity.

'Sell Kuzmenko and Horvat for magic beans!' and 'Pettersson is amazing and we need to keep him!' are not mutually compatible opinions. If you sell those guys, Pettersson is gonzo and if Pettersson is gonzo we should be trading him now to maximize his value.

They need to move multiple contracts and re-invest that money better, they'll need to move picks to do it, and they need to fire their lame-duck coach and get a quality systems coach in place. And the goaltending needs to recover.

And again, this team would be a playoff team right now if we were receiving the level of goaltending we received in literally any/every year that Benning was GM, and that was expected going into the year. Demko's struggles have magnified everything else and made things seem much worse than they actually are.

still if we move out Boeser and Garland a lot of that money will go to re-signing players like Kuz and Horvat, we’d need to be aware of our cap for re-signing Pettersson.

How do we fix our D?
- You need to draft them which can take years
- sign them to big deals as a UFA, which we don’t have the cap room
- trade for them, which we don’t really have the available assets.

How do you fill out the roster that points us in the right direction?

We don’t have prospects in the system that can realistically fill in for Garland, Boeser, Myers so if we moved them out for lesser players that does hurt our depth.

Its really easy and safe to say keep our top players, trade our picks to dump guys but it really doesn’t solve the deep issues at play here… we don’t have great players on ELC, we don’t have young players coming up.

If you really look at our situation we’re either going to be a middle of the pack team for the foreseeable future or we need to start selling and rebuilding. Benning messed this up badly and this new management didn’t do themselves any favours by re-signing Boeser and Miller well committing another 5 million cap space to another late 20s winger.

 

[MS]

Look back at my comments from tank post.
Im all for trading petey if the return is right.
This group is going nowhere, their record supports my view.

Also, betting on god like goaltending just for the team to sneak into the playoffs as your team building strategy sounds silly.

Mcdrai are arguably the best duo in the league right now and the oilers arent exactly a sure playoffs team either. Theyre exactly whats going to happen to this franchise, right in no man's land for the next decade because they cant take a step back in the short term to improve long term.

Edit: My b, thought this post was directed at me.

I mean, the return on Pettersson is also not likely to be right. You aren't going to win a trade where you're moving out a player of that calibre. You might get 1-2 'solid' players but your chances of getting a game-breaking superstar are very low.

Teams never let top 20-something players go for nothing or crappy rental packages for a reason. Teams never trade superstars in their mid-20s for a reason. It's f***ing hard to get those players, but fans convince themselves that the magic beans they'd get back are going to automatically be even better. It's such flawed thinking.

Bo Horvat is having probably the best season for a C not named Henrik in this team's 53-year franchise history and is younger than the Sedins/Luongo when Gillis took over. But people are frothing at the notion of trading him for some garbage rental package that is basically a guaranteed loss for the franchise. It absolutely boggles my mind.

 

[canuckking1]

My guess is he’s injured because I don’t understand how the shot would have fallen off that much on the PP.

I do think he’s slightly injured but a lot of it is his static movement on the PP.

 

[mriswith]

Dahlin was 21 when they traded Eichel. Pettersson is turning 25 this year and can basically force his way to UFA next summer.

Pettersson has already made it very clear he wants out if this team isn't winning. Our odds of retaining him are zilch if we're trading Kuzmenko/Horvat and hurtling into another tank. If you want to trade those guys, you'd better be on board with selling Pettersson, because that's what it means.

I like how you use Dahlin's age at the time of the trade, but then use Pettersson's age next season to try and make it sound like it's a 4 year gap.

Dahlin turned 22 that same season. Pettersson is 24 and doesn't turn 25 until next season. One year post Eichel trade Dahlin was happier than ever with his team and their future and no Sabres fan is worried at all about extending him long term.

I have always found the argument of but Pettersson to be awful, irrelevant, and a losers mentality. It's saying we need to make bad moves that hurt our ability to be a contender because of fear of one players feelings. I wouldn't let Pettersson alone hold this team back from doing the correct things and I think way too many people fail to understand that continuing to be a bubble team going nowhere losing pieces every season with a bunch of retirement contracts aging worse every year is more demoralizing and hurts our chance of extending him more than accepting the rebuild immediately and accelerating it. Players hate permanent mediocrity, going nowhere, getting worse just as much or more than fans. One year post-Eichel trade and Dahlin's a hell of a lot happier now than he was in the forced "contention", first years of Skinner's new deal era.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

We could have ourselves a new and improved lotto line..

 

[Zippgunn]

I think we have a goalie controversy brewing

You wonder what it will take for Delia to get two starts in a row...

 

[orcatown]

Strange game. Canucks look like they are easing their way to another lost when suddenly Kuzmenko turns a switch and gets them back in things. You want to celebrate such a win and should, I guess, but then you think of the long term future, including the retention of Kuzmenko and you're back to feeling less than hopeful. Also, you wonder if Avs are making the playoffs. This is not last year's team and, with what the playoffs seemingly took out of them, plus the injuries, they don't look a very good team. However, give the Canucks credit for playing a decent shut down game in the the third (although far from air tight). This is something they have often failed to do this year.

Good

Kuzmenko - 'cool hand Luke' around the net. Obviously a pivotal factor in this game.

OEL - something that tends to get overlooked is the efficiency of his movement of the puck from his end. Was smooth with that in this game and also good on the PP.

Myers - again prone to the bad penalty but overall played well. Good in the match ups with Colorado top line and went to the body hard to break up plays. One of his better games in a while.

Pettersson - thought he played well both ways and was important on two of the goals.

Horvat - continues to skate well and is becoming something of play maker. HIs puck movement was good.

Lockwood - had 8 hits in this game and showed good puck management. Best player on his line and, until the 3rd, was carrying the line. Garland started being more effected in that period after a weak start.

Delia - do we have a goal tending controversy. Be ironic if he takes over from Martin.

Lazar - IMO his best game in months. Forecheck helped create some chances and blocked shots more effectively.

Not Good

Hughes - got banged around pretty good in this one and ended up fighting the puck. Stumbled into a bad penalty which was indicative of his lack of composure. Him and Bear had to be bailed out way too often. Seemed more in sync when he got with Schenn.

Schenn - not mobile enough over the last while. Getting out of position and too many chances coming from his side. Play on second goal was poor from start to finish. Looked better when back with Hughes.

Others

Boeser - nice he scored and had some better moments in this game. However, there were times when the puck came to him in scoring positions and he muffined it or missed the net. Get anything from Boeser and you're happy and he was improved. But Kuzmenko should be on the 1st PP.

Miller - did less and got more done. Him trying to carry the team only leads him into forcing things and destroying team play.

Sometimes I wonder what Boudreau and his coaches are up to. He needs to do what works and forget the experiments . Needs to:

1. Keep Schenn with Hughes.

2. Put Kuzmenko on the first PP

3. Get Horvat off the PK and develop others suck as Lockwood to do it

 

[LordBacon]

I mean, the return on Pettersson is also not likely to be right. You aren't going to win a trade where you're moving out a player of that calibre. You might get 1-2 'solid' players but your chances of getting a game-breaking superstar are very low.

Teams never let top 20-something players go for nothing or crappy rental packages for a reason. Teams never trade superstars in their mid-20s for a reason. It's f***ing hard to get those players, but fans convince themselves that the magic beans they'd get back are going to automatically be even better. It's such flawed thinking.

Bo Horvat is having probably the best season for a C not named Henrik in this team's 53-year franchise history and is younger than the Sedins/Luongo when Gillis took over. But people are frothing at the notion of trading him for some garbage rental package that is basically a guaranteed loss for the franchise. It absolutely boggles my mind.

Bo is having a career year, much like JTM last year, or Eriksson before.
You extend them based on that performance then youre gonna have a BAD time.

Also Im fully aware that the package we're getting back isnt gonna be equal or even gonna be worse that what we're sending the other way.
But the trades are gonna get us picks, prospects, cap and helps the team tank for a high 1st round pick for the foreseeable future.
We desperately need all of those.
Also those "magic beans" can be used on other trades as well like I dont know why youre so fixated on the idea that those trades are all one and done.

You build a solid foundation for the team by getting young talented players on ELCs or their first extentions which are cost effective(or in rare cases, the likes of Kuzmenko). Then using the left over capspace to sign supporting cast for the core players, or even eat up shit contracts for other teams in order to get prospects/picks. You dont sign the likes of OEL/JTM/BH/AK to freaking retirement contracts which are only effective for the first couple of years.
That strategy has resulted in the team in this dog shit position we're in right now.
Drop the "magic beans" arguement and look at the big picture.

The team needs a shake up, you cant rely on Markstrom/Demko like the last 8 years, their body cant handle that much workload. The D cant do shit and the team isnt going anywhere.
You cant honeslty be happy with the results on ice.

 

[logan5]

Man is Hughes good in his own end. Time after time retrieving the puck and getting it out. He makes it look so easy, it gets overlooked.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Clearing up cap space, can very easily, even without fault of management, lead to bad moves, and further cap stress.

There is something about paying your top players, that forces being smarter about the rest of the team. We never had big $ drafted or extended players during the Benning era, so the $ was given out too freely.

 

[MS]

Bo is having a career year, much like JTM last year, or Eriksson before.
You extend them based on that performance then youre gonna have a BAD time.

Also Im fully aware that the package we're getting back isnt gonna be equal or even gonna be worse that what we're sending the other way.
But the trades are gonna get us picks, prospects, cap and helps the team tank for a high 1st round pick for the foreseeable future.
We desperately need all of those.
Also those "magic beans" can be used on other trades as well like I dont know why youre so fixated on the idea that those trades are all one and done.

You build a solid foundation for the team by getting young talented players on ELCs or their first extentions which are cost effective(or in rare cases, the likes of Kuzmenko). Then using the left over capspace to sign supporting cast for the core players, or even eat up shit contracts for other teams in order to get prospects/picks. You dont sign the likes of OEL/JTM/BH/AK to freaking retirement contracts which are only effective for the first couple of years.
That strategy has resulted in the team in this dog shit position we're in right now.
Drop the "magic beans" arguement and look at the big picture.

The team needs a shake up, you cant rely on Markstrom/Demko like the last 8 years, their body cant handle that much workload. The D cant do shit and the team isnt going anywhere.
You cant honeslty be happy with the results on ice.

Horvat obviously isn't going to score 60 goals going forward. That doesn't mean that he won't be worth his contract for several years or that he'll regress to the 55-point player he was 5 years ago. As I've said a few times, he's levelled up.

The top 5 teams right now in this league are getting basically zero contributions from ELCs and really only Dallas (Robertson) is getting big value from 2nd contracts. Fans have seized on this as a thing because Chicago did it once upon a moonbeam but it really isn't a thing.

You win by putting together a quality core of 5-8 players - and inevitably spending money on them - and then outmanaging the rest of the league to fill out the roster.

 

[BoHorvat 53]

I can't stress this enough; letting Kuzmenko walk would be a disaster. This is a winger who now has 34 points in 37 games (and in a lot of those received under 14 minutes of ice time). I'd love to get him locked up long-term at any number under 7.

 

[LordBacon]

Horvat obviously isn't going to score 60 goals going forward. That doesn't mean that he won't be worth his contract for several years or that he'll regress to the 55-point player he was 5 years ago. As I've said a few times, he's levelled up.

The top 5 teams right now in this league are getting basically zero contributions from ELCs and really only Dallas (Robertson) is getting big value from 2nd contracts. Fans have seized on this as a thing because Chicago did it once upon a moonbeam but it really isn't a thing.

You win by putting together a quality core of 5-8 players - and inevitably spending money on them - and then outmanaging the rest of the league to fill out the roster.

Aight, good argument.
Lets see how this goes bro

 

[iFan]

this group isn't going anywhere when you have
Boeser making 6.6
Miller making 8 (next season)
Myers making 6
OEL making 7.2
Pearson making 3.2
Garland making basically 5

Those players make up about 40% of our cap space... you can't screw around with your cap space like this and expect to compete or win anything other than a chance for a wild card playoff spot and a first round exit. Boeser, OEL and Myers eats up over 20% of our cap and their useless, how do you really compete with that dragging down your cap and nothing in the system.

 

[Paulinbc]

Day at work. Just finished watching. WWWWOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! go team.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

this group isn't going anywhere when you have
Boeser making 6.6
Miller making 8 (next season)
Myers making 6
OEL making 7.2
Pearson making 3.2
Garland making basically 5

Those players make up about 40% of our cap space... you can't screw around with your cap space like this and expect to compete or win anything other than a chance for a wild card playoff spot and a first round exit. Boeser, OEL and Myers eats up over 20% of our cap and their useless, how do you really compete with that dragging down your cap and nothing in the system.

Ehh, OEL is the only egregious one on that list. 2 of those guys have only 1 season left. Brock and Garland aren't that far from earning their cap hits on paper.

Retain a milly here, a milly there, buyout OEL in 25, and there's room for a very different looking team. They will have to be smart about any more signings, picks and trades, but that's no different than any other team.

 

[iFan]

Ehh, OEL is the only egregious one on that list. 2 of those guys have only 1 season left. Brock and Garland aren't that far from earning their cap hits on paper.

Retain a milly here, a milly there, buyout OEL in 25, and there's room for a very different looking team. They will have to be smart about any more signings, picks and trades, but that's no different than any other team.

and if it's win now, who do we replace them with? remember we gave up a top 10 pick to get Garland and OEL (which is why I don't like moving picks out to win now with this group) do you go shopping for UFAs and over pay, we don't have available trade assets to use to upgrade the team if the plan is to win now.

 

[MS]

Ehh, OEL is the only egregious one on that list. 2 of those guys have only 1 season left. Brock and Garland aren't that far from earning their cap hits on paper.

Retain a milly here, a milly there, buyout OEL in 25, and there's room for a very different looking team. They will have to be smart about any more signings, picks and trades, but that's no different than any other team.

As I was just saying in the OEL thread, when you look at the structure to me OEL should be an automatic buyout in 2023.

If you buyout OEL and are able to trade Myers (should be very doable with his tiny salary) and unload one other player - whether that's Boeser or Pearson or Garland - all of a sudden you have a lot of options and room to make moves.

 

[Breakers]

top 3 forwards in Even strength scoring
1) Crosby
2) McDavid
3) Pettersson

not bad

 

[CanucksSayEh]

and if it's win now, who do we replace them with? remember we gave up a top 10 pick to get Garland and OEL (which is why I don't like moving picks out to win now with this group) do you go shopping for UFAs and over pay, we don't have available trade assets to use to upgrade the team if the plan is to win now.

The team does have assets to trade, you just may not like using them.

Yes it will be difficult, the brass will have to make good signings, good picks and pull off a surprise or two. This isn't any different than building from scratch though.

They did find a Kuzmenko once, maybe they can do it again. Simply keeping Tanev, Toffoli and McCann probably has this team comfortably competing for the division lead. While it's maddening those moves were botched, it also shows that miracles aren't needed to get good players on good deals.

Every season, there is a handful of players that become available people complain about missing out on. There will be more going forward, we just need to nab them better than managements passed.

 

[iFan]

As I was just saying in the OEL thread, when you look at the structure to me OEL should be an automatic buyout in 2023.

If you buyout OEL and are able to trade Myers (should be very doable with his tiny salary) and unload one other player - whether that's Boeser or Pearson or Garland - all of a sudden you have a lot of options and room to make moves.

what moves though? Horvat will eat up 3 million of that, Kuz could be in for 7 million given the season he is having and UFA status, Pettersson will take a bit of that freed up cap space. We also need to replace OEL and Myers how do we add in 2 top 4 D man when we don't really have the trade chips or prospects that are developing in the system to fill in. I just don't see what you're seeing here, we have so many holes and issues at play. It's kinda like quitting your job because you bought a lotto ticket and are dreaming that you're going to win... dreaming is a lot of fun until reality smacks you in the face.

 

[God]

what moves though? Horvat will eat up 3 million of that, Kuz could be in for 7 million given the season he is having and UFA status, Pettersson will take a bit of that freed up cap space. We also need to replace OEL and Myers how do we add in 2 top 4 D man when we don't really have the trade chips or prospects that are developing in the system to fill in. I just don't see what you're seeing here, we have so many holes and issues at play. It's kinda like quitting your job because you bought a lotto ticket and are dreaming that you're going to win... dreaming is a lot of fun until reality smacks you in the face.

It's difficult to say which defensemen they'll be able to acquire because every team's situation changes after the season is over. Last year we saw Alex Romanov, John Marino, Mike Matheson, Mackenzie Weegar, and Nils Lundqvist get traded. The year before we saw OEL (lol), Nate Schmidt, and whoever else get dealt.

But if you need to make 7 million in space to help you re-sign Horvat and Kuzmenko, you do it. Especially when OEL and Myers are playing replacement level hockey.