Confirmed with Link: Canes Sign Defenseman Jake Gardiner to 4 Year Contract

[bleedgreen]

In before bleedgreen says “that topic is reserved for trading Calvin de Haan” .....

And I’d “like” that post”

 

[geehaad]

A Jake Gardiner discussion thread is fine. Unhinged rage posts during a game should go in the GDT since the same people posted the same rage in both threads. Just a personal opinion.

Upvoted. There's a really good reason a good number of us skip ahead in the GDTs to posts that originated 2.5 hours after the game began. Rage-posting elsewhere is akin to subverting the profanity filter, in my mind.

Apparently, its just fine unless I'm the one expressing the anger. Then its "why are you always so angry?"

It is very clearly not fine, evidenced by a good amount of push-back in the replies here. Beyond that, it's difficult to determine whether this is a sincere objection to how we respond to you...I'm assuming you really don't care.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Upvoted. There's a really good reason a good number of us skip ahead in the GDTs to posts that originated 2.5 hours after the game began. Rage-posting elsewhere is akin to subverting the profanity filter, in my mind.

Man what the heII are you on about?

EDIT: the two capital I’s look too much like actual L’s for this to not look like I’m being a jackass so here I am, explaining the joke.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Upvoted. There's a really good reason a good number of us skip ahead in the GDTs to posts that originated 2.5 hours after the game began. Rage-posting elsewhere is akin to subverting the profanity filter, in my mind.



It is very clearly not fine, evidenced by a good amount of push-back in the replies here. Beyond that, it's difficult to determine whether this is a sincere objection to how we respond to you...I'm assuming you really don't care.

I mean, I get it, but good luck policing that kind of stuff.

The negativity sucks sometimes, but I'm pretty sure that Moar Rules is not the answer.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I mean, I get it, but good luck policing that kind of stuff.

The negativity sucks sometimes, but I'm pretty sure that Moar Rules is not the answer.

Not to mention, the negativity and rage posting is justified at times. We all know how much shit we’ve had to deal with over the past decade+ when it comes to this team. So when it finally looks like they might be turning a corner with the success of last year, it’s frustrating and/or angering that they don’t seem to be building off that success this year. In many aspects, they look worse.

 

[My Special Purpose]

But the problem with him is that he's never been that good of an actual defensive player. His value comes from being an upper tier offensive defenseman who helps drive the offensive play when he's on the ice. We can't rely on him to really even be a good defensive defenseman because that's never been his game, and if he's just not got it anymore to be an offensive force, he quickly trends toward negative value to the team.

First of all, allow me to be clear. Jake Gardiner is not getting good results these days. It's painful to watch him play, and I'm anxious when he's on the ice. We'd probably have more points as a team if we had gone with a Fleury/TvR third pair and not signed him at all.

But ...

Two things:

No. 1, I believe that when Gardiner "clicks," we will be better for it. He's got a seven-year history as a very good No. 3 defenseman, and there's every reason to believe a Gardiner-Pesce pairing would succeed, given time. Remember, at this time last season, we wanted Hamilton on the third pairing, and we felt that Rod was an idiot for "forcing" the pairing with Slavin. Now it's arguably one of the top five pairings in the league.

And No. 2, your assessment of Gardiner's game that I quoted is wrong in virtually every conceivable way. Gardiner's career point shares shows that he's *more* valuable defensively than offensively *every* year of his career, and virtually *identical* to Faulk's defensive point share over the same time period.

Gardiner: Faulk:

Looking at this, it *should* be abundantly clear to anyone paying attention that it seems that it just takes top four defensemen a little more time than we'd like to get comfortable in their new surroundings. But I guess that's not reasonable.

There's also this little gem for anyone willing to actually reflect on the situation instead of just burying the guy out back:

Does anyone realize how nearly impossible it is to have an oiSH% of 4 percent OR an oiSV% of 85.3 percent? To have *one* of those numbers would make you among the unluckiest players in the league. To have *both* of those numbers is just ridonkulous. An 89.3 PDO is more than unsustainable, it's almost unimaginable.

Gardiner has been bad. There is no doubt. But he's also been ridiculously unlucky. Faulk's got basically the same stats (1-6-7 in 30 GP) as Gardiner (1-5-6 in 28 GP) and his PDO is 101.0 this season, including a 9.3 percent oiSH% despite the fact that he's obviously had very little to do with creating offense.

Not only is Gardiner not as bad as you think, he's not even the player you think he is. This will all be clear soon enough.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Gardiner also isn’t playing much with Aho, Svech, and TT so he’s not getting any cheap points because everyone else sucks at scoring.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I couldn’t care less about Gardiner’s points at this point in time. I’d just like him to stop turning over the puck in what seems like every crucial moment of the game.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Gardiner also isn’t playing much with Aho, Svech, and TT so he’s not getting any cheap points because everyone else sucks at scoring.

He's also not getting a lot of time with Staal, so he's not getting anything cheap defensively. So yeah, play a guy a lot with Dzingel, McGinn, Wallmark, Bishop and Martinook and complain that he's upside-down.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Stop trying to turn this place into PackPride Sports.

 

[geehaad]

You are witnessing the policing: peer pressure. Nothing more, nothing less.

And no one is suggesting that all rage-posting be eliminated.

 

[WreckingCrew]

You are witnessing the policing: peer pressure. Nothing more, nothing less.

And no one is suggesting that all rage-posting be eliminated.

All this rage and anti-rage posting is getting ridiculous...I move to a vote of no rage posting, all in favor?

ONLY VENGEANCE POSTS ARE ALLOWED! NO RAGING!

BTW if anyone disagrees I'm going to rage post...

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I agree with the general sense of what you’ve said, @My Special Purpose, but at least for me the “eye test” half of the equation is the part that, maybe “scares” me isn’t the right word, but gives me pause.

His skating is hampered. Like, it’s always tough to speculate who’s injured and who’s just aging quickly, but whatever it is, it’s noticeable. I’m not willing to use the BA word (Bryan Allen), but if this is what his skating is going to be from now on (and not just a vestige of an injury that will get better eventually), there may be something to the notion that he doesn’t fit the style of play.

Comparisons to Hamilton last year break down there once you do that. Hamilton wasn’t great, but there wasn’t necessarily anything noticeably wrong. He just wasn’t the gamebreaker he’d been advertised as. Gardiner looks like he’s driving around with a flat right now, and if that’s temporary we should be fine. If it’s not he either needs to make major adjustments to his game, or those that say this signing will fall flat may be on to something.


I also agree he hasn’t been as bad as people have said, as yesterday was the first real glaring error I can remember. We knew he’d have those moments regardless. And fully agreed that the underlying numbers suggest he should regress to the mean and start seeing some better results. So again, not disagreeing, just expressing that what I’m seeing from his legs does give me a bit of discomfort.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Comparisons to Hamilton last year break down there once you do that. Hamilton wasn’t great, but there wasn’t necessarily anything noticeably wrong. He just wasn’t the gamebreaker he’d been advertised as. Gardiner looks like he’s driving around with a flat right now, and if that’s temporary we should be fine. If it’s not he either needs to make major adjustments to his game, or those that say this signing will fall flat may be on to something.

You know what, the comparisons to Hamilton aren't good. The better comparison is Justin Williams. Does anyone remember the conversations we were having last Dec. about our captain?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

You know what, the comparisons to Hamilton aren't good. The better comparison is Justin Williams. Does anyone remember the conversations we were having last Dec. about our captain?

That’s a fair comparison, do we think general discomfort regarding his legs (again, note that I’m not saying Gardiner is a bust) was unjustified at that point? He’s now retired. Probably not the comparison you want to make for the guy we just signed for 4 more years.

Another point (BBA may be able to correct me if I’m wrong as I believe he watches the Leafs quite a bit) is that unlike a 36-year-old Williams last year, Gardiner’s lack of legs is not as advertised. I thought Gardiner was considered an average to above average skater, and that has clearly not been the case so far.

Regardless of what you’re saying (and again, I agree with the general gist of it), there does seem to be something wrong with his speed and skating right now, and to pretend that’s not true just to make the point that he hasn’t been nearly as bad as people are saying is over correction IMO. The hope is that, if it does indeed stem from the back issue, is that it’s merely lingering and not chronic.

 

[GoldiFox]

Gardiner has made as many great skating plays this year as noticeably bad ones from my view. To my very unqualified eyes I don't see Gardiner losing positing due to him lacking skating ability. Almost all the poor moments that stick out in my mind were just bad 50/50 calls where he put himself at a disadvantage. Something Hamilton also struggled with a lot last year before easing in. Although it is tough to compare Hamilton/Gardiner because Hamilton was struggling 1) on the first pair rather than the 3rd and 2) next to Jaccob Slavin rather than TVR/Fleury.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Gardiner has made as many great skating plays this year as noticeably bad ones from my view. To my very unqualified eyes I don't see Gardiner losing positing due to him lacking skating ability. Almost all the poor moments that stick out in my mind were just bad 50/50 calls where he put himself at a disadvantage. Something Hamilton also struggled with a lot last year before easing in. Although it is tough to compare Hamilton/Gardiner because Hamilton was struggling 1) on the first pair rather than the 3rd and 2) next to Jaccob Slavin rather than TVR/Fleury.

And I’m fully willing to admit I’m just not a good hockey watcher if Gardiner’s skating isn’t noticeably hampered and instead I just have Pitkanen syndrome.

But in my view, there’s been a difference between Hamilton’s potentially “perceived” effortlessness and Gardiner’s stride. It’s possible that Gardiner’s just even more effortless. The issue is that I seem to remember him getting beat to the puck so bad a couple of times, and the rest of it is pretty much as a low speed pivot. I thought he had a great start to the season and even then I described him as a “turret” in his own zone, rather than a puck mover that relies on skating.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

And I’m fully willing to admit I’m just not a good hockey watcher if Gardiner’s skating isn’t noticeably hampered and instead I just have Pitkanen syndrome.

But in my view, there’s been a difference between Hamilton’s potentially “perceived” effortlessness and Gardiner’s stride. It’s possible that Gardiner’s just even more effortless. The issue is that I seem to remember him getting beat to the puck so bad a couple of times, and the rest of it is pretty much as a low speed pivot. I thought he had a great start to the season and even then I described him as a “turret” in his own zone, rather than a puck mover that relies on skating.

I suspect that it's a style of play issue. Sounds like we are having the same concerns that Leafs fans had: when he looks good he looks good, and when he looks bad he looks bad.

Difference is, he's been some combination of snakebit/ineffective/unlucky on the offensive end, so we don't have the data to say "look, he's contributing on offense."

This may also be part of the problem of having too many offensive defensemen. Maybe they need to play with good forwards to look good, and you only have so many of those. I almost wonder if he's gonna need top pairing time to sort it out.

 

[MinJaBen]

I almost wonder if he's gonna need top pairing time to sort it out.

Only if we want to get Lafrenière.

 

[spockBokk]

Only if we want to get Lafrenière.

Wouldn’t that be the beat way to get back at MTL for the Aho offer sheet?

Revenge checklist:

Step 1-Steal top ufa LD from MTL with lower offer right before camp.

Step 2-Promote said LD to top pair

Step 3-Lose many games

Step 4-Use Dundon fat stax to rig lottery

Step 5–Draft Lafreniere in front of rabid MTL fanbase

Step 6-Profit

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I suspect that it's a style of play issue. Sounds like we are having the same concerns that Leafs fans had: when he looks good he looks good, and when he looks bad he looks bad.

Difference is, he's been some combination of snakebit/ineffective/unlucky on the offensive end, so we don't have the data to say "look, he's contributing on offense."

This may also be part of the problem of having too many offensive defensemen. Maybe they need to play with good forwards to look good, and you only have so many of those. I almost wonder if he's gonna need top pairing time to sort it out.

Agree with the gist, though I’d just change it to “good” defensemen as I think we only have two guys (Hamilton and Gardiner) that I’d consider “offensive.” Point is still the same though.

Really not ready to call for the guy’s head. If the PDO was 100 (as Kev mentioned), I’m probably still respecting him for being a “turret” and thinking “huh, I always thought his game was more based on skating, guess I was wrong” instead of concern about injury. We will see how it shakes out.

 

[bleedgreen]

Gardiner has been concerning because he looks like he’s lost his confidence on both sides of his job, as well as not looking like he’s skating as well as he has in the past.

He’s hesitant in the defensive zone. He looks like someone who knows he’s making mistakes and is trying to avoid more by sitting still for a second making sure he picks the right guy. Then he’s behind the moment and often ends up on the wrong side of his guy.

Then with the puck he isn’t making passes as crisp as you’d expect and is turning the puck over. Usually either by hesitating again a second too long or by desperately forcing a puck just to get it away from him.

So confidence is a fickle thing, could come back with some health. The problem is that he and Zaistev were the worst pairing I watching in the nhl last year. I was positive it was 90/10 Zaitsev but now I’m not too sure. Their relationship on the ice then reminds me now of JR’s quote about how when you’re drowning your peers throw you anvils instead of life preservers.

 

[RodTheBawd]

In the preseason, I remember watching him QB the PP and thinking "now this is why we got this guy" and yeah he f***ing sucks.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Gardiner has been concerning because he looks like he’s lost his confidence on both sides of his job, as well as not looking like he’s skating as well as he has in the past.

He’s hesitant in the defensive zone. He looks like someone who knows he’s making mistakes and is trying to avoid more by sitting still for a second making sure he picks the right guy. Then he’s behind the moment and often ends up on the wrong side of his guy.

Then with the puck he isn’t making passes as crisp as you’d expect and is turning the puck over. Usually either by hesitating again a second too long or by desperately forcing a puck just to get it away from him.

So confidence is a fickle thing, could come back with some health. The problem is that he and Zaistev were the worst pairing I watching in the nhl last year. I was positive it was 90/10 Zaitsev but now I’m not too sure. Their relationship on the ice then reminds me now of JR’s quote about how when you’re drowning your peers throw you anvils instead of life preservers.

Zaitsev has been solid this season for the Senators. I’ve liked his game.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Another point (BBA may be able to correct me if I’m wrong as I believe he watches the Leafs quite a bit) is that unlike a 36-year-old Williams last year, Gardiner’s lack of legs is not as advertised. I thought Gardiner was considered an average to above average skater, and that has clearly not been the case so far..

Gardner was never super "fast". He wasn't slow either. His strength in skating was that he was smooth, agile, and had good transitions/turns, and lateral movement, but he wasn't a "speed burner".

Right now, he looks stiff, hesitant and unsure. How much of that is due to effects of an injury? Or not being confident with a new team, new partners and a different system?

No clue, but he's not nearly as smooth and agile as he was in prior years in Toronto.