Confirmed with Link: Canes get Niederreiter for Rask!?!?

[Brock Anton]

Heh, so Waddell legit did steal Nino.

 

[ookhaab]

That doesnt seem like very good GM strategy... Though that trade does make more sense now.

 

[bleedgreen]

Bumping this because this popped up on my Twitter feed:



I can't imagine this is true, because it seems like a very piss poor way to do a very important job, but it is one way to explain why this deal happened.

I’m struggling to believe this is true.

Kinda takes any brilliance out of our end. A ten year old on an Xbox would’ve made that trade from our side.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I’m struggling to believe this is true.

Kinda takes any brilliance out of our end. A ten year old on an Xbox would’ve made that trade from our side.

I struggle to believe it, but the trade was very odd to begin with. And the Wild did suddenly fire a long time analytics guy at the end of the year.

 

[Chrispy]

I’m struggling to believe this is true.

Kinda takes any brilliance out of our end. A ten year old on an Xbox would’ve made that trade from our side.

This also goes against the way Waddell described the trade talks

These are a lot of details of how things developed that seem to contradict Russo's report:
Carolina had previously identified Nino as a player to acquire.
Waddell called Fenton on Monday 1/14 to begin talks.
Talks continued for 3 days and involved additional players before both just decided on a 1-1 deal.

That doesn't read like the Wild calling up Carolina on a whim at all.

 

[Svechhammer]

This also goes against the way Waddell described the trade talks



These are a lot of details of how things developed that seem to contradict Russo's report:
Carolina had previously identified Nino as a player to acquire.
Waddell called Fenton on Monday 1/14 to begin talks.
Talks continued for 3 days and involved additional players before both just decided on a 1-1 deal.

That doesn't read like the Wild calling up Carolina on a whim at all.

No, I like the mindset going around that they just called us and we accepted. Keep Waddell in the weeds, ready to take advantage of any hapless weak GM. Let them think they can take advantage of him when in reality he's the one playing you. Please, keep that reputation alive, at least for one more season while we put the final pieces in place for a long sustained run at the Cup.

 

[Wolfpuck]

Bumping this because this popped up on my Twitter feed:



I can't imagine this is true, because it seems like a very piss poor way to do a very important job, but it is one way to explain why this deal happened.

That's amazing if true. It's one thing to be incompetent. It's another to not even give a shit.

 

[My Special Purpose]

That doesn't read like the Wild calling up Carolina on a whim at all.

It could have been that the final conversation went like Russo described.

My problem with the anecdote is the "no due diligence" part. This is clearly an attack on Fenton to make him look like a bad GM. But as I said in another thread, every organization is *always* scouting *everybody*. There's no way Fenton was an AGM and a GM in this league for as long as he's been without knowing damn well what he was getting in Rask. The attempt to portray him as a lazy, mindless fantasy hockey owner is ridiculous, IMO. There's very little doubt in my mind, especially coming from an amateur scouting background like Fenton does, that Paul Fenton knew exactly what he was getting when he traded for Victor Rask.

Having said that, *why* he would acquire him knowing what he knows about Rask is still up for debate, but I'm not buying the "no due diligence" part. My personal opinion is that Fenton knew how well-liked Nino was in the room and he thought he could break up the "country club" atmosphere and spark something with one move. His coach had just gotten through criticizing Nino in the press as well. So maybe he did it to please Boudreau, as well.

 

[Chrispy]

It could have been that the final conversation went like Russo described.

My problem with the anecdote is the "no due diligence" part. This is clearly an attack on Fenton to make him look like a bad GM. But as I said in another thread, every organization is *always* scouting *everybody*. There's no way Fenton was an AGM and a GM in this league for as long as he's been without knowing damn well what he was getting in Rask. The attempt to portray him as a lazy, mindless fantasy hockey owner is ridiculous, IMO. There's very little doubt in my mind, especially coming from an amateur scouting background like Fenton does, that Paul Fenton knew exactly what he was getting when he traded for Victor Rask.

Having said that, *why* he would acquire him knowing what he knows about Rask is still up for debate, but I'm not buying the "no due diligence" part. My personal opinion is that Fenton knew how well-liked Nino was in the room and he thought he could break up the "country club" atmosphere and spark something with one move. His coach had just gotten through criticizing Nino in the press as well. So maybe he did it to please Boudreau, as well.

Even if Fenton immediately said "Yes" to Rask, he had 3 days of further negotiation to look at Rask and determine if that was the direction he wanted to go. So it's not like it was a heat of the moment decision with no opportunity to do more scouting.

So aside from the clear attempt at a hit job by Russo, Russo's timeline doesn't jive with what Carolina put out as a detailed timeline of the deal. And Carolina's timeline makes Fenton look much more calculating and careful in putting together the deal.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

No, I like the mindset going around that they just called us and we accepted. Keep Waddell in the weeds, ready to take advantage of any hapless weak GM. Let them think they can take advantage of him when in reality he's the one playing you. Please, keep that reputation alive, at least for one more season while we put the final pieces in place for a long sustained run at the Cup.

Yeah, that ruse is probably played at this point tbh. Since Donny is up for GM of the Year and all.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Also: I have a funny feeling that this year will even this deal out a bit.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

It could have been that the final conversation went like Russo described.

My problem with the anecdote is the "no due diligence" part. This is clearly an attack on Fenton to make him look like a bad GM. But as I said in another thread, every organization is *always* scouting *everybody*. There's no way Fenton was an AGM and a GM in this league for as long as he's been without knowing damn well what he was getting in Rask. The attempt to portray him as a lazy, mindless fantasy hockey owner is ridiculous, IMO. There's very little doubt in my mind, especially coming from an amateur scouting background like Fenton does, that Paul Fenton knew exactly what he was getting when he traded for Victor Rask.

Having said that, *why* he would acquire him knowing what he knows about Rask is still up for debate, but I'm not buying the "no due diligence" part. My personal opinion is that Fenton knew how well-liked Nino was in the room and he thought he could break up the "country club" atmosphere and spark something with one move. His coach had just gotten through criticizing Nino in the press as well. So maybe he did it to please Boudreau, as well.

Yeah I always love the notion that professional hockey GMs have never heard of guys or have no idea who they are when it's literally their full time jobs.

Like, it was a dumb move on his part, and like you said, his reasons for making the move are debatable. But it's 2019 and information about every team and every player is ubiquitous.

The notion that I, a Very Online Hockey Fan, can know the basics (position, general range of counting stat output) of 80-90% of players in the league, and a professional GM has never heard of a guy like Victor Rask, is nonsense.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Also: I have a funny feeling that this year will even this deal out a bit.

The season ended just before we all caught on to Nino having the same drop in production that Ferland had after an initial hot streak playing with Fins.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Nino will likely go back to his .5 or a little higher PPG. Rask will probably figure out how to get back to being a reasonably productive 30-40 point player. It'll even out a bit most likely, but I'm happy to have Nino, and think he'll likely be a bit better than Rask even if he turns it around. Even his lesser productive times seem to be pretty solid, whereas Rask has been terrible in his bad times.

 

[My Special Purpose]

And Carolina's timeline makes Fenton look much more calculating and careful in putting together the deal.

Well, it's a double-edged sword for him, though. Either he didn't do the work, and he looks like lazy and uninformed, or he did, and he looks incompetent. It was a bad trade. It was universally panned by stat geeks, scouts, fans and media, and I suspect, even the players around the league wondered what was up. There's no real way out for Fenton, so I don't understand the need to make stuff up, and clearly, one side is making something up.

Also: I have a funny feeling that this year will even this deal out a bit.

The season ended just before we all caught on to Nino having the same drop in production that Ferland had after an initial hot streak playing with Fins.

Yeah, I think we got a glimpse at unproductive Nino, but we haven't seen lazy Nino. He was engaged and physical right up to the end. I actually have a good feeling about Nino going forward, I just wonder if he -- or indeed any of our wingers -- can be fully productive with anyone but Aho as their center (but that says more about our centers than our wingers, IMO).

 

[GoldiFox]

The season ended just before we all caught on to Nino having the same drop in production that Ferland had after an initial hot streak playing with Fins.

At least Ferland still produced on a line with Staal-Teravainen. Niederreiter's production dropped off while still being stapled to the team's leading Playoff scorer Aho.

In the Playoffs Niederreiter had a lower 5v5 P/60 (1.06) than all of Martinook (1.13), Wallmark (1.42), McGinn (1.56), Svechnikov (1.82), Williams (1.93), Staal (2.06), Aho (2.19), Teravainen (2.3) and Foegele (2.66). Only Ferland (close at 1.00 while injured), McKegg (0.84), and Maenalanen (0.86) were lower. He totally dropped off the map with no indication of injury.

Niederreiter is an OK replacement for Ferland but both of them are still streaky complimentary wingers who need to be fed high-end chances. I have no doubt that Niederreiter on the 3rd line all season is a 0.5 ppg or lower winger.

 

[SvechneJerk]

Look, the only thing we need to do is draft a couple more “Ahos” this summer. How hard is that? I mean, we’ve got 10 picks this year. Sheesh.

Y’all make things sound so difficult sometimes.

 

[bleedgreen]

At least Ferland still produced on a line with Staal-Teravainen. Niederreiter's production dropped off while still being stapled to the team's leading Playoff scorer Aho.

In the Playoffs Niederreiter had a lower 5v5 P/60 (1.06) than all of Martinook (1.13), Wallmark (1.42), McGinn (1.56), Svechnikov (1.82), Williams (1.93), Staal (2.06), Aho (2.19), Teravainen (2.3) and Foegele (2.66). Only Ferland (close at 1.00 while injured), McKegg (0.84), and Maenalanen (0.86) were lower. He totally dropped off the map with no indication of injury.

Niederreiter is an OK replacement for Ferland but both of them are still streaky complimentary wingers who need to be fed high-end chances. I have no doubt that Niederreiter on the 3rd line all season is a 0.5 ppg or lower winger.

Well said. Nino’s falloff wasn’t injury related, and while he started off great he’s showed that just like the rest of our team he’s just one part. One that cant be counted on all season to be lead the way. He isn’t a good Ferland replacement, he’s a good addition to Ferland, and Svech.....etc.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Well said. Nino’s falloff wasn’t injury related, and while he started off great he’s showed that just like the rest of our team he’s just one part. One that cant be counted on all season to be lead the way. He isn’t a good Ferland replacement, he’s a good addition to Ferland, and Svech.....etc.

It demonstrates why we really NEED a #2C behind Aho (that can drive play more than Staal) AND another top 6 winger (and play Svech wherever our new winger doesn't - either 1LW or 2RW, have NN 2LW & TT 1RW)

 

[My Special Purpose]

It demonstrates why we really NEED a #2C behind Aho (that can drive play more than Staal) AND another top 6 winger (and play Svech wherever our new winger doesn't - either 1LW or 2RW, have NN 2LW & TT 1RW)

I honestly feel that established No. 2 center is the *only* thing that should be on our summer shopping list (assuming one or both of Mrazek/McElhinney are back). We can fill anything else internally.

 

[MinJaBen]

I honestly feel that established No. 2 center is the *only* thing that should be on our summer shopping list (assuming one or both of Mrazek/McElhinney are back). We can fill anything else internally.

Any ideas? UFA or trade? I agree that another high end center is lacking, but I don't see us paying a UFA center a market rate and I don't see the organization coming to the conclusion that Staal is not the number 2c as much as the rest of us see that.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I honestly feel that established No. 2 center is the *only* thing that should be on our summer shopping list (assuming one or both of Mrazek/McElhinney are back). We can fill anything else internally.

Any ideas? UFA or trade? I agree that another high end center is lacking, but I don't see us paying a UFA center a market rate and I don't see the organization coming to the conclusion that Staal is not the number 2c as much as the rest of us see that.

Jason Spezza.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Any ideas? UFA or trade? I agree that another high end center is lacking, but I don't see us paying a UFA center a market rate and I don't see the organization coming to the conclusion that Staal is not the number 2c as much as the rest of us see that.

In a perfect world, Mika Zibanijad solves all our issues. But I think we blew our chance at a blockbuster with the Rangers. Still, he's so perfect, I'd revisit and make about anybody available, and only give up when the price got too high.

I'd have used Ferland, Fox and our myriad picks to try to get Hayes from NYR at the trade deadline, so we'd at least have the rights to negotiate with him at the moment. I still like Hayes.

I also like Turris in Nashville. If the Preds go all-out for Duchene, which it looks like they will, they can't be paying $6 million for Turris for the next five seasons. He's 29 and a right shot, and even though the counting stats are lower than you'd expect for the money, he's young and talented enough to expect a bounce-back.

I also very much like Rickard Rakell. I know the Ducks would probably rather part with Adam Henrique, but I'd push for Rakell. Neither of them are truly centers, but I like Rakell enough that I think the talent outweighs the imperfect positioning.

Others I like include: RNH and Kadri, and to a lesser extent, Henrique, Andreas Athanasiou, Alex Wennberg and J.T. Miller, who all seem like a little too much of the same to me, but who could help.

 

[Wolfpuck]

Any ideas? UFA or trade? I agree that another high end center is lacking, but I don't see us paying a UFA center a market rate and I don't see the organization coming to the conclusion that Staal is not the number 2c as much as the rest of us see that.

Maybe Turris if Nashville signs Duchene? He could bounce back for us a la Nino.

I know, trading with Poile is dangerous.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Jason Spezza.

Not a horrible fall-back position, but I think it's pretty safe he goes back to Ottawa, and I personally think we will aim higher.