Confirmed with Link: Canes get Niederreiter for Rask!?!?

MinJaBen

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Jason Spezza.

Do you really think he adds anything that we don't already have in Staal? And for his age and recent health, that seems risky.

In a perfect world, Mika Zibanijad solves all our issues. But I think we blew our chance at a blockbuster with the Rangers. Still, he's so perfect, I'd revisit and make about anybody available, and only give up when the price got too high.

I'd have used Ferland, Fox and our myriad picks to try to get Hayes from NYR at the trade deadline, so we'd at least have the rights to negotiate with him at the moment. I still like Hayes.

I also like Turris in Nashville. If the Preds go all-out for Duchene, which it looks like they will, they can't be paying $6 million for Turris for the next five seasons. He's 29 and a right shot, and even though the counting stats are lower than you'd expect for the money, he's young and talented enough to expect a bounce-back.

I also very much like Rickard Rakell. I know the Ducks would probably rather part with Adam Henrique, but I'd push for Rakell. Neither of them are truly centers, but I like Rakell enough that I think the talent outweighs the imperfect positioning.

Others I like include: RNH and Kadri, and to a lesser extent, Henrique, Andreas Athanasiou, Alex Wennberg and J.T. Miller, who all seem like a little too much of the same to me, but who could help.

I like Zibanijad a lot as well, but I can't see the Rangers tearing it any further down with KK or Hughes coming in this draft. I was willing to give up Necas, a D prospect, and our 1st for him before the deadline...still would...but I don't see the Rangers biting on that now. As far as the others go, especially Turris, why pay $6M for Turris when you can get so much more if we just directly offer Duchene ourselves? Yes, it would probably take somewhere around $9M to get him, but I'd much rather spend that extra on a Duchene than help another team get him by taking a $6M reclamation project off their hands.
 

Anton Dubinchuk

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Do you really think he adds anything that we don't already have in Staal? And for his age and recent health, that seems risky.

It was a tongue and cheek comment that Spezza is who Kev wants as a 2C based on the fact that we fought about whether he could fix our powerplay a few weeks ago. Him saying “I want Spezza” then “2C should be our only target” was funny to me (though I would like to make it clear that I understand his position of throwing Spezza out as a potential name, and in fact agree with his assessment that anything but 2C can be filled from within), and I was answering on his behalf that “Spezza was the 2C he wants” (primarily to bust balls).
 

WreckingCrew

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Do you really think he adds anything that we don't already have in Staal? And for his age and recent health, that seems risky.



I like Zibanijad a lot as well, but I can't see the Rangers tearing it any further down with KK or Hughes coming in this draft. I was willing to give up Necas, a D prospect, and our 1st for him before the deadline...still would...but I don't see the Rangers biting on that now. As far as the others go, especially Turris, why pay $6M for Turris when you can get so much more if we just directly offer Duchene ourselves? Yes, it would probably take somewhere around $9M to get him, but I'd much rather spend that extra on a Duchene than help another team get him by taking a $6M reclamation project off their hands.
It's cute that you think the Canes can land a big name UFA :neener:
 

tarheelhockey

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It's cute that you think the Canes can land a big name UFA :neener:

I think we can if we want to pay for the talent.

IMO, this trade illustrates where the real opportunity is for a team like the Canes. Not so much in paying market value for UFAs, but in taking advantage of situations where a team feels like they have to get rid of a player on a discount.

I feel like there's at least one team a year that makes an utterly boneheaded trade. Two recently have been Nino and TT. If we keep a little cap space and Waddell keeps his ear to the ground for crisis situations, we might actually make out OK in the long run without any big free agent signings at all.
 

My Special Purpose

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Do you really think he adds anything that we don't already have in Staal? And for his age and recent health, that seems risky.



I like Zibanijad a lot as well, but I can't see the Rangers tearing it any further down with KK or Hughes coming in this draft. I was willing to give up Necas, a D prospect, and our 1st for him before the deadline...still would...but I don't see the Rangers biting on that now. As far as the others go, especially Turris, why pay $6M for Turris when you can get so much more if we just directly offer Duchene ourselves? Yes, it would probably take somewhere around $9M to get him, but I'd much rather spend that extra on a Duchene than help another team get him by taking a $6M reclamation project off their hands.

Well, because Duchene isn't coming here. We're just not players in the big-game UFA hunt. Yeah, Raleigh has a lot to offer and it's a good, young team, and it's a nice area. But c'mon, we're not New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami, Boston and Toronto and we never will be. And it's probably just as well. That's not how to build a winning organization, anyhow.

And look, please don't feel the need to be the Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau here. Yes, Raleigh and the Canes have a great many things going for them, but for a lot of players, it's just not enough for us to be an option. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with us. We're just not for everyone.

Also, I'd rather acquire a player via trade, anyhow. For one thing, the new players' salary will be offset by whatever salary we send the other way, whereas with a UFA, you eat all that salary. And secondly, you can get out from under a bad trade a little easier than a bad free-agent signing.

Turris doesn't make $6 million if we trade Faulk for him. He's free!
 

Chrispy

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Why would Nashville take back Faulk? If they are dealing Turris, they are doing it to solve their cap issues and avoid dealing someone like Subban or Ellis.

They probably trade Turris for a pick or 2, so it's another case of replenishing picks with a Faulk deal.

The other issue is the risk with Turris is around the additional 4 years, or one year longer than Jordan Staal. If he can rebound, that's a great 2C. If he can't, that cements Jordan as 2C because they will be trying to keep Turris at 3C.

Either way (Staal/Turris or Turris/Staal) that's >$20M per season tied up in the top 3 centers.
 
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MinJaBen

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Also, I'd rather acquire a player via trade, anyhow. For one thing, the new players' salary will be offset by whatever salary we send the other way, whereas with a UFA, you eat all that salary. And secondly, you can get out from under a bad trade a little easier than a bad free-agent signing.

Two things I think are wrong with this. First, as @Chrispy points out, that assumes that the team that has the guy we want wants someone with salary back. In the Turris example, that is probably not true. The second problem is that it also assumes we have a surplus of talented players to trade for other talented players without creating a hole in our line up that also needs filling. If trading Slavin would get us McKinnon, that's great until we start giving up tons of shots that Slavin was helping us stop. Now we would need to go get a 1st pairing LHD. Adding a UFA of high enough caliber doesn't deplete our roster, just our cap space...something we have as much as anybody.

And I'm not going to argue for or against Raleigh. It's great, but not for everybody. But that goes for every team. For every guy that won't check us out because "small market" or "not Canada" there are also guys that don't want anything to do with the extreme cold of some Northern cities or the media circus of places like Toronto or Montreal. We should at least be open to asking guys and offering guys that we think would be fits. They can say no, sure. But if we don't ask and offer, it's not their fault, it's ours.
 

GoldiFox

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Didn't watch any of Turris this year but his stats are brutal.

5v5 play:
Lucas Wallmark had 7 goals and 17 points in 977 minutes
Kyle Turris had 2 goals and 13 points in 706 minutes
Greg McKegg had 6 goals 11 points in 415 minutes

Looks like borderline AHLer stats to me. Turris was eventually a healthy scratch in March and complained about it.
 

My Special Purpose

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Two things I think are wrong with this. First, as @Chrispy points out, that assumes that the team that has the guy we want wants someone with salary back. In the Turris example, that is probably not true. The second problem is that it also assumes we have a surplus of talented players to trade for other talented players without creating a hole in our line up that also needs filling. If trading Slavin would get us McKinnon, that's great until we start giving up tons of shots that Slavin was helping us stop. Now we would need to go get a 1st pairing LHD. Adding a UFA of high enough caliber doesn't deplete our roster, just our cap space...something we have as much as anybody.

Let's not start this again. Our team has made significantly more impact trades than free-agent signings. I don't know why saying we're more likely to improve via trade than free agency is even a little bit controversial. I don't even know how to respond to the rest of this word salad. All I know is that if everyone thought this way, no trade would ever be made.

And signing a high-caliber UFA doesn't just deplete our caps space, it costs actual millions of dollars. Millions of dollars that we don't bring in, during the average season. Of all the silly things in that comment, intimating that we have as much money to spend as anybody is probably the silliest.

So, you'd have tossed $9 million per at Jeff Skinner?
 

MinJaBen

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Let's not start this again. Our team has made significantly more impact trades than free-agent signings. I don't know why saying we're more likely to improve via trade than free agency is even a little bit controversial. I don't even know how to respond to the rest of this word salad. All I know is that if everyone thought this way, no trade would ever be made.

This is true. It is also true of any team that never tries to sign UFAs. “You miss all the shots you don’t attempt.”

And signing a high-caliber UFA doesn't just deplete our caps space, it costs actual millions of dollars. Millions of dollars that we don't bring in, during the average season. Of all the silly things in that comment, intimating that we have as much money to spend as anybody is probably the silliest.

This is a ridiculous argument. We have to pay players we trade for as well as pay guys that are UFA. You were the one advocating Turris of all people...someone who is looking like a colossal waste of salary. If money is all Dundon cares about, we can stop talking about both UFAs and trades as we can get a guy to play center from the Checkers and be done. Fortunately, while I know he does care about money, he also seems to want to win and has said he’s willing to pay when it looks like it is possible to have a winner.

So, you'd have tossed $9 million per at Jeff Skinner?

What?!? Because I advocated signing a UFA I’d sign any stupid contract? Does that mean since you advocate trades you’d trade Nino for Rask? How about trading away Hall to get Larsson?

Talk about silly comments...
 

NotOpie

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Also: I have a funny feeling that this year will even this deal out a bit.

I've been a bit of a Rask advocate in the past and didn't understand his stagnation, even prior to his injury. He's a hard worker, has a good shot, and actually possesses some solid hockey sense. So I could easily see him coming back to the mid-40 point range. As far as Nino is concerned, he was always engaged, played hard, and mostly made very good decisions. He was a bit snake-bit, however, I can remember at least 2 posts/crossbars that he hit and a couple of other very close, near misses. Add to this a couple of nice feeds he made where Staal hit a post/crossbar and his playoff production could have been significantly better. I believe he'll be fine going forward. I anticipate he is a 50-55 point guy next season and that would be just fine for us.

Why would Nashville take back Faulk? If they are dealing Turris, they are doing it to solve their cap issues and avoid dealing someone like Subban or Ellis.

They probably trade Turris for a pick or 2, so it's another case of replenishing picks with a Faulk deal.

The other issue is the risk with Turris is around the additional 4 years, or one year longer than Jordan Staal. If he can rebound, that's a great 2C. If he can't, that cements Jordan as 2C because they will be trying to keep Turris at 3C.

Either way (Staal/Turris or Turris/Staal) that's >$20M per season tied up in the top 3 centers.

I don't know if I'd want Turris but he's certainly worth the consideration if his attitude jibes with Rod's program.

The key issue is that to get a solid 2C or any other 45-55 point scorer, we're going to have to pay at least around $6 million. Doesn't matter if that player is acquired via trade or UFA. That added salary will necessitate sending somebody out (either as part of the trade or as part of another transaction). I've mentioned before that I don't see us spending close to the cap and anticipate that we'll end up around $73 million to $75 million in cap payroll. Paying Aho, re-signing Willy, and bringing in another scorer almost guarantee's that we'll have to ship our $4.5 million to $5.5 million in salary. Sure, Dundon could spend closer to $79 million, but I think that's for the year after next (Svech's contract will have that impact). Somebody that's on today's roster won't be here in October IMO.
 

57special

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For those who might be curious about how ol' Victor is faring up in Minnesota, here is a snippet from Mike Russo's recent article in the Athletic;

" For somebody who should have known he was on the fringe to be in the opening night lineup, it’s extremely disconcerting how bad the start of Rask’s training camp has been.
First of all, Rask, who scored two goals and one assist in 23 games with the Wild after being acquired for Nino Niederreiter last January, showed up and managed to fail Boudreau’s skating test (Rask missed the required times needed to avoid having to skate a fourth, then a fifth time).
That was one awful first impression from a guy on the bubble, and Boudreau made it crystal clear afterward that he was not pleased.
Second, Rask was pretty nondescript in last weekend’s scrimmages. He certainly didn’t add a step to his slow-footed skating as evidenced by the fact he was constantly beaten wide by teammates, including Gerry Mayhew on an overtime winner. Considering the Wild commission skating coach Andy Ness on a part-time basis, it says something that Rask didn’t bother working with him all offseason or return to Minnesota early to work with him last month. Remember, Boudreau and former GM Paul Fenton publicly suggested that working with Ness was something Rask may want to consider.
Third, Rask was minus-3 in his preseason debut at Winnipeg. Now, to be fair, one of those goals against was an empty-netter and two of the goals-against came in the first 1:37 of the game on shots that goalie Kaapo Kahkonen arguably should have stopped.
But still, by all accounts, Rask didn’t have a good game.
Just a really bad start to camp after Fenton, when he was still with the team earlier in the summer, said he wanted to give Rask the ability to resurrect his career rather than buy him out.
At the end of the day, every player is responsible for his own career. Guys have a small window. They either take advantage of it or get passed by.
Rask is getting lapped and in danger of losing his grasp on his own NHL career. He really needs to show something in these final three or four exhibition games that he gets in.
Prediction: Rask makes the team initially. He’s 26 and scored 21 goals four seasons ago, so he could come in handy this season if the Wild run into injuries. But he’ll surely start as the 13th forward because there’s no room for him in the top-12, nor is there room for him on the power play or penalty kill."
 

Roboturner913

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IDK what happened to this guy. He was always a little bit slow, but it didn't hurt him too bad because he wasn't afraid to take a direct route to the puck. He's become a perimeter player and looks borderline scared of physical contact. I was a big fan of his game but it doesn't even look like the same dude anymore.
 

Vagrant

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IDK what happened to this guy. He was always a little bit slow, but it didn't hurt him too bad because he wasn't afraid to take a direct route to the puck. He's become a perimeter player and looks borderline scared of physical contact. I was a big fan of his game but it doesn't even look like the same dude anymore.

i have always been a fan and defender of rask, but at a certain point he made that near on impossible. there were rumors around the time of his draft that he wasn't interested in hockey and didn't really love the game. all that chatter quieted down when he came into the league and started producing, but the contract he was given was one of the worst moves they could have made for him because it made the day to day less important. for a player that has always been right on the cusp of being made irrelevant by the increased speed of the league, losing half a step was basically a death sentence. rask's situation should be a case study in why you can't give certain players long term extensions. his work ethic from that point dropped off the map. he's a great dude, but being a professional athlete is a commitment that takes a year round grind in the modern era and if you don't train to mitigate your weaknesses, you'll be passed by soon enough. perhaps francis had a soft spot for a guy they always said was too slow in the feet to be an elite player due to his own experience.

on a separate note, nino has been somewhat concerning for me with the drop in his play in the playoffs and the fact that he looks a little off in the early going here this year. he'll probably pick it up when the games start to matter, but it's something to keep an eye on. if he falls away from aho and slides down the depth chart it might make matters worse for him. he's not exactly a burner himself.
 

Anton Babchuk

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rask always sucked. his points were a result of incredibly favorable usage due to lack of high end talent. thankfully the same thing that conned us into giving him $24m also conned the wild into giving us niederreiter for him.

if you were to take aho off this team and put rask on it, we would suck but rask could probably hit 45 points again with all that ice time. wouldn't make him any good. he never was. one of the luckiest people ever to exist.
 
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Canes

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Rask just seems to not give a shit anymore. It was like that like here quite awhile even before being traded. I think he got paid and thought he didn't have to put in the work anymore. I was never his biggest fan but I never thought he would be this bad. If he's playing hockey at all in the 2-3 years, it will be in a low level European league most likely.

As for Nino, I'm sort of concerned about him as well. His production dropped off a cliff down the stretch and into the playoffs. He still played very solid defensively but the offense dried up. Wild fans did warn us about that, but I still very much prefer what he can do over Rask.
 

HisIceness

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Rask got paid, and then that was that.

As for Nino, I'm sort of concerned about him as well. His production dropped off a cliff down the stretch and into the playoffs. He still played very solid defensively but the offense dried up. Wild fans did warn us about that, but I still very much prefer what he can do over Rask.

Agree with the bolded. Someone mentioned in an older thread that when Nino misses the net, Jordan Staal is there to bang in the rebound and the Hurricanes beat the Islanders in game 1 of the 2nd round. When Rask misses the net, the opposition goes on an odd-man rush the other way. Pretty accurate.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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on a separate note, nino has been somewhat concerning for me with the drop in his play in the playoffs and the fact that he looks a little off in the early going here this year. he'll probably pick it up when the games start to matter, but it's something to keep an eye on. if he falls away from aho and slides down the depth chart it might make matters worse for him. he's not exactly a burner himself.

Looks off in the early going? It’s Been one preseason game! The only NHLr to score in the two preseason games is Wallmark. TBs regulars looked like shit in 2 preseason games.

Man, the season really needs to start.
 

Canes

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As far as I'm concerned preseason doesn't really matter for established players too much, if at all. I just hope Nino settles somewhere in between his insane pace to start his tenure here and his pace to end to the season. I think if he keeps playing his game he'll be fine though.
 

57special

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The thing about Nino is that even when he can't put the puck in the net, he still is a big body who is a physical pest in the offensive zone. You need guys who can get down and dirty, and Nino can do that. At worst he is an average or better middle six winger. At best he is a top 6 wing...when he's "on", he can be a 1st liner who can score and does some dirty work.

At this point, Rask is a AHL/NHL tweener, though I'm not even sure how good of an AHL'er he is. If he truly has work ethic problems...o_O...Fenton was an idiot.
 

Navin R Slavin

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Player A

Drafted: 2010
Career stats: 313GP, 48G, 115A, 163PTS
Profile: Considered a bust. Now on third team and "last chance."
Contract: $4 million, through 2020

Player B (Ferland)

Drafted: 2010
Career stats: 289GP, 55G, 59A, 114PTS
Profile: Rising power forward
Contract: Asking for north of $6 million.

Name that player.

A reminder: Player B got $14m over 4 years for a $3.5m AAV.
 

Roboturner913

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Minnesota fans complained about Nino while he was at his worst. But even at his worst, Nino is still a pretty decent player who happens to be a little bit overpaid.

I don't think Dundon/Waddell made that trade thinking Nino was going to score at a 30 goal, 70 point pace after they got him. That was just a happy accident. If he reverts back to being the 40-45 point player he was in Minnesota, that's not great, but I'd rather pay $5.3 million for a 45 point player (bad Nino) than to pay $4 million for a 15 point player (bad Rask).

The assumption of course is that Rask isn't going to make any kind of a bounceback, but he's been so damn awful that seems like a pretty safe assumption.

rask always sucked. his points were a result of incredibly favorable usage due to lack of high end talent. thankfully the same thing that conned us into giving him $24m also conned the wild into giving us niederreiter for him.

Now this is just not true at all. You don't score 20 goals/45 points in the NHL these days without having some kind of decent talent. Could we put Martinook or Foegele in the top 6 and expect an automatic 45 points? of course not. Hell we barely got that out of Lindholm at the same time Rask was around and look what Lindy is doing right now.

Rask never logged more than 2nd line minutes and his power play points were roughly 30% of his even strength points which is pretty much the norm. To say he "always sucked" is the same as saying Eric Staal "always sucked." It's completely revisionst and totally false.

Nobody's saying he was ever a superstar either obviously. But he had something and now that something is gone, whatever it was.
 
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