Proposal: Candidates for 3rd line winger role

[Xspyrit]

If we can’t get Formenton signed Kerfoot wouldn’t be a bad option once the Leafs are forced to move him.

You're very hard to follow. On one hand it was "the right move" to trade Brown for a 2nd in 2024 and now you're suggesting Kerfoot?

I think they would take possibly take him for future considerations but I don’t see any way they give up anything.

That is a very bad hockey market evaluation. Dorion just traded Connor Brown (at the worst possible timing) and still got a 2nd round pick for him. What is this talk about future considerations? Or even the sweetener you were talking about earlier? No surprise people are confused...

Why would the Ducks give up an asset for a 1 year rental in a development year. Terrible asset management for them.

Weren't you among those who defended Dorion about his asset management? (more lack thereof)

Well Anaheim has Terry, Vatrano and Sifverberg on the right side with Perreault likely to be eased in. Not sure how much additional insulation they need at RW.

Connor Brown can play LW with ease...

Brown - Pinto - Joseph
Motte - Kastelic - Watson
Crookshank/Kelly

That depth would have been perfect this season, even if we lost Formenton.

It would allow all of Greig, Jarventie, Lodin and Sokolov to spend all season developing in the AHL with maybe a call-up at one point.

 

[GCK]

You're very hard to follow. On one hand it was "the right move" to trade Brown for a 2nd in 2024 and now you're suggesting Kerfoot?



That is a very bad hockey market evaluation. Dorion just traded Connor Brown (at the worst possible timing) and still got a 2nd round pick for him. What is this talk about future considerations? Or even the sweetener you were talking about earlier? No surprise people are confused...



Weren't you among those who defended Dorion about his asset management? (more lack thereof)



Connor Brown can play LW with ease...

Brown - Pinto - Joseph
Motte - Kastelic - Watson
Crookshank/Kelly

That depth would have been perfect this season, even if we lost Formenton.

It would allow all of Greig, Jarventie, Lodin and Sokolov to spend all season developing in the AHL with maybe a call-up at one point.

1. Kerfoot makes 750K Brown makes 4M and we are on a budget which you seem unwilling to accept. I think Formenton signs anyway which is preferred.

2. The worst possible timing would be now when rosters are set and cap space is filled.

3. It’s very hard to move contracts right now no matter the quality of the player unless you will take money back which was not happening.

4. I hated all the 2nd rounders Dorion gave up but could care less about picks in rounds 4-7

5. Have you ever seen Brown play LW or is this just an assumption.

 

[Xspyrit]

1. Kerfoot makes 750K Brown makes 4M and we are on a budget which you seem unwilling to accept. I think Formenton signs anyway which is preferred.

2. The worst possible timing would be now when rosters are set and cap space is filled.

3. It’s very hard to move contracts right now no matter the quality of the player unless you will take money back which was not happening.

4. I hated all the 2nd rounders Dorion gave up but could care less about picks in rounds 4-7

5. Have you ever seen Brown play LW or is this just an assumption.

1. You could be right of course but as of now, it seems that we have entered the FYOUS. Not a lot of cap space and even traded for DeBrincat who makes 9 M$ this year.

2. No rush to trade anybody now... Brown could have been kept until the deadline or until the end of the season. Luckily Motte was still unsigned but we might have had to spend more than a 2nd to find a proper replacement down the road (unless we wanted to rush Greig). Ideal scenario, keep Brown until the deadline and hope to sell at max value then graduate Greig who will have had a good amount of AHL games.

3. Again, no rush to trade. Worst case scenario : let contracts expire to UFA

4. Every pick matters, like every dollar matters. A business has to be managed carefully.

5. IIRC he played it on his first season here, even maybe in his 2nd season? And he surely did in Toronto. I know he has played RW here for a while but that was mostly because we were full at LW and low at RW.

 

[aragorn]

Motte seems like a perfect C. Brown replacement at a price this team can afford. While it remains to be seen if Motte can put up the same kind of numbers as C. Brown he is off to a pretty good start during these preseason games & will likely play with Pinto for the most part who is also off to a great start. And Motte seems to be just as good as C. Brown defensively.

If Joseph can also increase his pt production with those two not only do we have a pretty good 3rd line, but it should more than make up for the loss of C. Brown. While I still would like to see Formenton sign & return to this team since he is much younger than Motte they should have a much improved bottom six this yr.

 

[GCK]

1. You could be right of course but as of now, it seems that we have entered the FYOUS. Not a lot of cap space and even traded for DeBrincat who makes 9 M$ this year.

2. No rush to trade anybody now... Brown could have been kept until the deadline or until the end of the season. Luckily Motte was still unsigned but we might have had to spend more than a 2nd to find a proper replacement down the road (unless we wanted to rush Greig). Ideal scenario, keep Brown until the deadline and hope to sell at max value then graduate Greig who will have had a good amount of AHL games.

3. Again, no rush to trade. Worst case scenario : let contracts expire to UFA

4. Every pick matters, like every dollar matters. A business has to be managed carefully.

5. IIRC he played it on his first season here, even maybe in his 2nd season? And he surely did in Toronto. I know he has played RW here for a while but that was mostly because we were full at LW and low at RW.

Your first 3 points all come down to money. If you don’t believe there is a budget. Of course keeping Brown makes sense if you ignore reality.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Definitely need Formenton as 3LW, everyone else is a massive drop off.

Motte is not a massive drop off.

 

[GCK]

Motte is not a massive drop off.

Motte has a history of missing large chunks of the season due to injury

 

[Xspyrit]

Your first 3 points all come down to money. If you don’t believe there is a budget. Of course keeping Brown makes sense if you ignore reality.

Reality from the past ≠ reality today

It seems that you are the one ignoring something. Yes we have been "on a budget" for a long time, I think we all know that, but Melnyk was also talking about the eventual FYOUS, which was actually supposed to start for the 2021-22 season but delayed 1 season since the team was not ready to take a next step.

Now, we have like 5 M$ in dead money, DeBrincat makes 2.6 M$ more than his cap hit, we only have 5.69 in cap space with an important player left to sign. But we can't really add more cap hit because Zub, DeBrincat and Pinto will all need extensions next season, and we'll need a goalie too.

Having Brown this season would have fit under the cap. How much more was his cost compared to what Formenton would have been? Don't think it would have been substantial for a team with a near 80 M$ salary expenditure. Sens NEED to start winning NOW and they have obviously shown that they are ready to spend to do so

 

[HSF]

Motte is not a massive drop off.

offensively? absolutely he is

 

[GCK]

Reality from the past ≠ reality today

It seems that you are the one ignoring something. Yes we have been "on a budget" for a long time, I think we all know that, but Melnyk was also talking about the eventual FYOUS, which was actually supposed to start for the 2021-22 season but delayed 1 season since the team was not ready to take a next step.

Now, we have like 5 M$ in dead money, DeBrincat makes 2.6 M$ more than his cap hit, we only have 5.69 in cap space with an important player left to sign. But we can't really add more cap hit because Zub, DeBrincat and Pinto will all need extensions next season, and we'll need a goalie too.

Having Brown this season would have fit under the cap. How much more was his cost compared to what Formenton would have been? Don't think it would have been substantial for a team with a near 80 M$ salary expenditure. Sens NEED to start winning NOW and they have obviously shown that they are ready to spend to do so

Leblanc and Dorion have both clearly stated we have an internal budget. Rumours were 74M and we are at 70M without Formenton signed and without a D that Dorion is still chasing.

 

[Xspyrit]

Leblanc and Dorion have both clearly stated we have an internal budget. Rumours were 74M and we are at 70M without Formenton signed and without a D that Dorion is still chasing.

POTENTIAL PERFORMANCE BONUSES	$4,025,000
ESTIMATED SALARY EXPENDITURE	$67,980,000
DEAD CAP SALARY EXPENDITURE	$5,562,500
NON-ROSTER SIGNING BONUSES	$1,400,000

Seems to me that they have already busted their budget. How come they were able to sign Tyler Motte?

 

[GCK]

POTENTIAL PERFORMANCE BONUSES	$4,025,000
ESTIMATED SALARY EXPENDITURE	$67,980,000
DEAD CAP SALARY EXPENDITURE	$5,562,500
NON-ROSTER SIGNING BONUSES	$1,400,000

Seems to me that they have already busted their budget. How come they were able to sign Tyler Motte?

Estimated salary expenditures on Capfriendly include the cost of NHL contracted players in the AHL like Johnathan Aspirot, Dillon Heatherington, etc….

 

[Xspyrit]

Estimated salary expenditures on Capfriendly include the cost of NHL contracted players in the AHL like Johnathan Aspirot, Dillon Heatherington, etc….

Why would they do that? But ok

Did you think about dead cap, etc?

Anyway, it's possible that they're still just below the cap in terms of an internal budget. Although at this point IMO, they should go all in financially. Their best bet is now to start making the playoffs and winning rounds to make profits

I love Joseph and Motte (+ Gambrell) but I really wish we still had Nick Paul and Connor Brown instead.

Paul - Pinto - Brown could have been the best 3rd line in the league. That would have a literal nightmare for the opposition, broken sticks on the bench all season.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Why would they do that? But ok

Did you think about dead cap, etc?

Anyway, it's possible that they're still just below the cap in terms of an internal budget. Although at this point IMO, they should go all in financially. Their best bet is now to start making the playoffs and winning rounds to make profits

I love Joseph and Motte (+ Gambrell) but I really wish we still had Nick Paul and Connor Brown instead.

Paul - Pinto - Brown could have been the best 3rd line in the league. That would have a literal nightmare for the opposition, broken sticks on the bench all season.

The only problem is that Paul isn’t much of a scoring threat, and Brown was mush less of a threat this last season.

I love the speed and scoring with Formy and Joseph, and it should really let Pinto’s offence shine.

We may see a lot of broken sticks over the endless breakaways…. Lol

 

[Xspyrit]

The only problem is that Paul isn’t much of a scoring threat, and Brown was mush less of a threat this last season.

I love the speed and scoring with Formy and Joseph, and it should really let Pinto’s offence shine.

We may see a lot of broken sticks over the endless breakaways…. Lol

Yay Formenton - Pinto - Brown could have been crazy too.

But we have no idea what is going on with Formenton. Hopefully it's not what we fear

 

[GCK]

Why would they do that? But ok

Did you think about dead cap, etc?

Anyway, it's possible that they're still just below the cap in terms of an internal budget. Although at this point IMO, they should go all in financially. Their best bet is now to start making the playoffs and winning rounds to make profits

I love Joseph and Motte (+ Gambrell) but I really wish we still had Nick Paul and Connor Brown instead.

Paul - Pinto - Brown could have been the best 3rd line in the league. That would have a literal nightmare for the opposition, broken sticks on the bench all season.

I like the look of Paul Pinto Brown as well but Paul and Brown would be 7M assuming 3M for Paul whereas Motte and Joseph is 3.85.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Estimated salary expenditures on Capfriendly include the cost of NHL contracted players in the AHL like Johnathan Aspirot, Dillon Heatherington, etc….

AHL contracts are a separate cost, not included, just add them up , to get your answer.
We need room to include all potential performance bonuses for this year, if any carry over next year, we will be in cap trouble, if we want to keep DeBrincat.

 

[HSF]

Leblanc and Dorion have both clearly stated we have an internal budget. Rumours were 74M and we are at 70M without Formenton signed and without a D that Dorion is still chasing.

zaitsev will be moved in a chychrun deal for sure. Then they can fit both Chychrun and Formenton

 

[GCK]

AHL contracts are a separate cost, not included, just add them up , to get your answer.
We need room to include all potential performance bonuses for this year, if any carry over next year, we will be in cap trouble, if we want to keep DeBrincat.

Do the math all NHL contracts listed in cap friendly show up in Salary expenditures even the AHL players. Guys on AHL contracts are not included. It’s about 2M.

Performance bonuses are not going to be 4.5M but realistically could hit almost 2M.

 

[UglyPuckling]

AHL contracts are a separate cost, not included, just add them up , to get your answer.
We need room to include all potential performance bonuses for this year, if any carry over next year, we will be in cap trouble, if we want to keep DeBrincat.

True. The players towards the bottom of a CapFriendly team salary page are AHL players and prospects. The title of this section is "NON-ROSTER". They are not included in the most important stats like "PROJECTED CAP SPACE" and "PROJECTED CAP HIT" (aka "TODAYS CAP HIT"). A lot of the most important info that one can glean from CapFriendly appears at the top of the page.

When I put my spreadsheets together and post them here, I also note that "performance bonuses are not included". If the total on one of these spreadsheets is already close to the cap ceiling, calling out that "performance bonuses are not included" is important and points to potential cap issues the following year.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Motte passes the eye test as a 3LW but he also has a career high of 9 goals and 16 points at age 27. His best pace was only 11 goals and 25 points. I believe some need to temper expectations.

That said, I also don't think we need to make a trade. Sure, we have a puzzle piece missing at 3LW without a signed Formenton, but 2/3 of our 3rd line is among the best in the NHL, and we have an amazing top 6. If we are in the playoffs by the trade deadline and Formenton isn't signed for whatever reason - THEN we make a trade and go for whoever's just having a decent year. Someone like Athanasiou (upcoming UFA) from Chicago for example.

 

[Cosmix]

A question a lot of people are still asking...rhetorically.

The big Q was why did we acquire Stepan at all? The cost being a 2nd round pick makes it even stupider.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The big Q was why did we acquire Stepan at all? The cost being a 2nd round pick makes it even stupider.

Pretty simple really, and was well explained at the time.

He could still play top 6 centre, albeit on a team that was looking to finish as high in the draft as possible while not harming player development, and was known as a strong leader and mentor, which they wanted for Norris in particular. Stepan was also known for playing mistake free hockey, and was a 200 foot player. He was a very highly regarded vet, who seemed happy to come here and play the role we wanted him to play.

Development and insulation along with being able to actually slot in on the second line was the reasoning. Pandemic and distance from family turned out to be harder than he anticipated, and then he got hit with a season ending injury as he was starting to play better.

In my opinion the reasoning was sound, but it ended up being a failure in execution. It happens.

 

[Xspyrit]

What was shocking in the Stepan trade is that the 2nd round pick wasn't coming our way, that's all

Stepan was a cap dump with his 6.5 AAV

The following year, the same Coyotes got a 2nd and a 7th for taking a 4.5 AAV Gostisbehere (2 years though), who was a better player IMO and much closer to be worth his cap hit

I like the look of Paul Pinto Brown as well but Paul and Brown would be 7M assuming 3M for Paul whereas Motte and Joseph is 3.85.

Yes I accepted this as it was necessary for our 2023-24 cap situation anyway, Paul and Brown would have been costly going forward. It looks like our cap will be very tight next season. But thankfully, we should not be in cap hell after that. Once the dead money expires, it will also help

 

[Cosmix]

Pretty simple really, and was well explained at the time.

He could still play top 6 centre, albeit on a team that was looking to finish as high in the draft as possible while not harming player development, and was known as a strong leader and mentor, which they wanted for Norris in particular. Stepan was also known for playing mistake free hockey, and was a 200 foot player. He was a very highly regarded vet, who seemed happy to come here and play the role we wanted him to play.

Development and insulation along with being able to actually slot in on the second line was the reasoning. Pandemic and distance from family turned out to be harder than he anticipated, and then he got hit with a season ending injury as he was starting to play better.

In my opinion the reasoning was sound, but it ended up being a failure in execution. It happens.

Stefan was a complete waste of a roster spot and failed to deliver anything of value.