Confirmed with Link: Canadiens trade for Christian Dvorak for Cond. '22 1st (best but top 10 protected) + '24 2nd

[JeffreyLFC]

there goes any chance at leveraging the major LTIR space in season to address the major hole on D.

MB's really not very good at this management thing

We would probably have never traded our 1st round pick anyway with the draft in Montreal next year. That pretty solidify the chance of us drafting in the first round next year.

 

[Belial]

No, I think it's quite reasonable. 50-60 is 2C territory and more is 1C. Below 30 points is 4th liner territory.

You can think whatever you want but just cuz McDavid is able to get 150 points that doesn't mean he sets the bar.

 

[Gravity]

You can think whatever you want but just cuz McDavid is able to get 150 points that doesn't mean he sets the bar.

You know any 1Cs that score less than 60?

 

[Miller Time]

Got it. You said Weber wasn't good last year n Savard is worse than bad Weber at both ends of ice. If I'm bored tomorrow I'll look up your posts. Did you hammer on Weber last year?

You asked me 1 question and I'll answer it. If Romanov doesn't take a big jump No it won't bother me. Bit I think he will clean up so.e of his D game No idea why ya went on about JKO critics n whatever for a paragraph. I actually was pro KK.
Core roster needs and being incapable? No one makes a SC finals without some quality core pieces. Some are actually still playimg this year for the Habs. And some are being developed just fine. You should enjoy some of that. It's good for the soul

you don't need to look... Weber was not great last year, though that was also not very surprising... it was predictable. The surprising part was how well he gutted through a very solid playoff performance. Overstated a bit, but his sheer will impacted both his play and the play of those around him. Savard, who i like as a signing (and predicted for weeks ahead of the signing... it was such an obvious fit given our GMs M.O) is a big upgrade to our bottom pairing... unfortunately Weber's injury leaves him badly out of place in a top-4 role on a team with Chiarot/Edmundson pencilled into the top 4 (unless Romanov makes big strides and beats one of them out).

can't help you with the reading comprehension. Be careful putting to much "hope" into another young player, that's what ends up driving a lot of unwarrante vitriol once high/unrealistic expectations aren't met.

I enjoyed the playoff run just fine, thanks. Enjoyment doesn't have to preclude grounded assessments of what shape the roster is in... some times teams to ride 1-2 remarkable performances from key players (usually a goalie, though Cammy just about won us a playoff round back in 09-10) and a whole lot of luck to get to the finals. Rare, but last year's team certainly fits that bill. Not many teams in history make it to the SC finals despite a losing overall record for the season... that record is a better reflection of our roster state than a 20-game stretch with a few very timely wins.

 

[Miller Time]

We would probably have never traded our 1st round pick anyway with the draft in Montreal next year. That pretty solidify the chance of us drafting in the first round next year.

don't disagree... though it still doesn't make the self-imposed handcuffs for a team seeming to be "trying" to stay playoff competitive any less

then again... i guess we could still trade the pick, just with the restriction that it be "the other one"

 

[Belial]

You know any 1Cs that score less than 60?

I don't know why we suddenly jumped to #1 center but yeah Bergeron had a couple of seasons under 60 points while still being a #1 center.

 

[aresknights]

you don't need to look... Weber was not great last year, though that was also not very surprising... it was predictable. The surprising part was how well he gutted through a very solid playoff performance. Overstated a bit, but his sheer will impacted both his play and the play of those around him. Savard, who i like as a signing (and predicted for weeks ahead of the signing... it was such an obvious fit given our GMs M.O) is a big upgrade to our bottom pairing... unfortunately Weber's injury leaves him badly out of place in a top-4 role on a team with Chiarot/Edmundson pencilled into the top 4 (unless Romanov makes big strides and beats one of them out).

can't help you with the reading comprehension. Be careful putting to much "hope" into another young player, that's what ends up driving a lot of unwarrante vitriol once high/unrealistic expectations aren't met.

I enjoyed the playoff run just fine, thanks. Enjoyment doesn't have to preclude grounded assessments of what shape the roster is in... some times teams to ride 1-2 remarkable performances from key players (usually a goalie, though Cammy just about won us a playoff round back in 09-10) and a whole lot of luck to get to the finals. Rare, but last year's team certainly fits that bill. Not many teams in history make it to the SC finals despite a losing overall record for the season... that record is a better reflection of our roster state than a 20-game stretch with a few very timely wins.

"any team/GM that believes a d group like that is a good bet to support making the playoffs, let alone a deep playoff run, is either incredibly incompetent or flat-out lying."

Yet you say Weber was bad reg season, you wanted Savard, Romanov is a year older. So not much different in the back end this year. And this D ( - bad Weber as you say plus add Savard who ya wanted even if as a 5/6) did make a deep playoff run and made POs lol. The group of 6 isn't that much worse if at all than the D that made POs ( reg season I'm taking as Weber was a beast in the POs) with #1 goalie and teams best highest paid player out for a big stretch, Best def C out for a big stretch, heart n soul F out....... but yet 4 more than later any supporting this D is incompetent or lying OK then. Context helps paint a picture. Without the injuries yo so many key players maybe it isn't the same struggle to get in. Many hockey people liked the Habs D.

Hopefully a healthy Price for an entire year helps. Offense should be better.

Can't help me with reading comprehension lol. Thats a good thing for me.

 

[bsl]

the group was bad last year... we limped into the playoffs thanks to a really hot start to the season...

Weber wasn't great last year, but was still considerably better than Savard at both ends of the ice. Net downgrade... i'm surprised that's even a question.

Certainly hope Romanov makes a big jump this year. That would be great. And... if he doesn't, will you be in the same crowd as the big JKO critics who couldn't separate their overinflated emotional expectations from "hoping" he'd just be better than his strong bubble playoff performance instead of accepting the reality that young players tend to make uneven progress in their early 20's?

Romanov could do great and cement himself as the top-3 D we desperately need for this defense not to be a big liability... and... he may very well have a season similar or even worse than last year. That won't remove his potential, even though we can be sure some of the usual suspects will start complaining about him as no better than a 3rd pairing dman for life.

This group, on paper, is clearly worse than last year. Could romanov (or wideman... or norlinder...) surprise and make it better? I'm sure we all hope so.

Treading on hope is all that's left when management is incapable of addressing core roster needs

God.What a bunch of blather. Blah blah blah, And the team is much better than last year.

 

[Miller Time]

"any team/GM that believes a d group like that is a good bet to support making the playoffs, let alone a deep playoff run, is either incredibly incompetent or flat-out lying."

Yet you say Weber was bad reg season, you wanted Savard, Romanov is a year older. So not much different in the back end this year. And this D ( - bad Weber as you say plus add Savard who ya wanted even if as a 5/6) did make a deep playoff run and made POs lol. The group of 6 isn't that much worse if at all than the D that made POs ( reg season I'm taking as Weber was a beast in the POs) with #1 goalie and teams best highest paid player out for a big stretch, Best def C out for a big stretch, heart n soul F out....... but yet 4 more than later any supporting this D is incompetent or lying OK then. Context helps paint a picture. Without the injuries yo so many key players maybe it isn't the same struggle to get in. Many hockey people liked the Habs D.

Hopefully a healthy Price for an entire year helps. Offense should be better.

Can't help me with reading comprehension lol. Thats a good thing for me.

i don't get your logic.

"bad" weber was still a decent top-4 dman, to say nothing of the leadership role he plays with the group (which, while often overstated, does appear to be at the least a positive influence on his peers).

Removing a top-4 caliber dman from a group that is already made up of 2 players better suited as 4-5's, is a big loss. Savard doesn't help that loss at all. So while he does improve the bottom depth, we were already lacking top end quality and have only further increased that hole with Weber's absence.

Injuries affect all teams. Last year we were middle of the pack (17th -the higher the better) in CHIP (cap hit injury players)... and a big chunk of that was Price, which the 4.8M$ we spent on his back-up rightfully mitigated to a degree... of skaters, only 7 teams had fewer cap $ sidelined to injury. So overall, we were ahead of the curve as far as injury "luck"... can't play that card.

"hockey people" had MB as GM of the year through 15 games, and most likely to be fired through the last 15... the "clydesdale" media narrative got some nice buzz in the playoffs, but it was heavily ungrounded. A deeper dive into the effectiveness of our D reveals it to be a heavily flawed group that gives up both high volume and high quality shots... and now weber is gone and his replacement is even less effective. Net downgrade from a mediocre group.

 

[nhlfan9191]

points are indicative of him being buried in the lineup by Tocchet. He is so much more than a 3rd line center. He is Danault defensively with so much more offensive potential

Im not going to pretend to know much about Dvorak with him playing in Arizona. But Danault’s finished 6, 6, and 7 the last 3 years in Selke voting while Dvorak hasn’t received a vote in his life. To say he’s even close to as good defensively seems silly. His offensive stats don’t seem far off Danault either, but he can score goals which is a big plus.

 

[Andy]

This trade can only be judged by what KK does in Carolina. If he ends up developing into a 60 point centre, then this whole saga will look bad.

I hope Dvorak is ready for some very high expectations. I see people predicting 25 goals and 60 points.

 

[Habano]

A lot of people are expecting Dvorak to put up bigger numbers because he will supposedly be playing with better wingers.

I'd like to know, which one of our wingers is so much better than Taylor Hall, Phil Kessel, Clayton Keller or even Conor Garland that Dvorak is gonna come here and get all these points.

 

[Belial]

A lot of people are expecting Dvorak to put up bigger numbers because he will supposedly be playing with better wingers.

I'd like to know, which one of our wingers is so much better than Taylor Hall, Phil Kessel, Clayton Keller or even Conor Garland that Dvorak is gonna come here and get all these points.

He was playing with Pittlick and Crouse!

 

[LaP]

"any team/GM that believes a d group like that is a good bet to support making the playoffs, let alone a deep playoff run, is either incredibly incompetent or flat-out lying."

Yet you say Weber was bad reg season, you wanted Savard, Romanov is a year older. So not much different in the back end this year. And this D ( - bad Weber as you say plus add Savard who ya wanted even if as a 5/6) did make a deep playoff run and made POs lol. The group of 6 isn't that much worse if at all than the D that made POs ( reg season I'm taking as Weber was a beast in the POs) with #1 goalie and teams best highest paid player out for a big stretch, Best def C out for a big stretch, heart n soul F out....... but yet 4 more than later any supporting this D is incompetent or lying OK then. Context helps paint a picture. Without the injuries yo so many key players maybe it isn't the same struggle to get in. Many hockey people liked the Habs D.

Hopefully a healthy Price for an entire year helps. Offense should be better.

Can't help me with reading comprehension lol. Thats a good thing for me.

The team that made the playoffs finished 18th in the league despite playing in a weak division. Most of the time 18th is not enough to make the playoffs. The team will definitely have to play better than last year to make it.

 

[Habano]

He was playing with Pittlick and Crouse!

How was he playing with Pitlick, they're both centres. Also, his TOI was higher than any other centre on the team including Schmaltz.
Christian Dvorak - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

 

[Draft]

Said Mad Max.

To quote Hobbes,

“Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.”

In short, when every man cares only for themselves, and not for their tribe, one cannot claim the benefits of the tribe.

KK better step up his game and fly on his own, because MTL will no longer protect him, and if he doesn’t show Carolina the money, neither will they.

Not a fan of hobbes or his beliefs. You are misinterpreting his writing.

Hobbes, influenced by contemporary scientific ideas, had intended for his political theory to be a quasi-geometrical system, in which the conclusions followed inevitably from the premises.[12] The main practical conclusion of Hobbes's political theory is that state or society cannot be secure unless at the disposal of an absolute sovereign. From this follows the view that no individual can hold rights of property against the sovereign, and that the sovereign may therefore take the goods of its subjects without their consent. This particular view owes its significance to it being first developed in the 1630s when Charles I had sought to raise revenues without the consent of Parliament, and therefore of his subjects

I am a lot more about workers self determination. Seems smart to be your own boss and not need to bow and scrape to someone gifted their position and authority from an accident of birth.

So as long as you have a boss you may take everything from me and I have no say in the matter. Well KK is doing what he can so that he won't have to worry about future needs. Then he can do what he likes at his leisure because his needs have been met. No need to have a whip cracked above your head to cajoule you to do something, you do it because you love it.

At long last! My years of having to study political theory are applicable on HFHabs. You're both missing the mark a bit, IMO.

First, the quoted passage sets up Hobbes' framework for the social contract, the Laws of Nature, and Sovereign Authority. This is setting the stage for these concepts, he's not arguing for either an absolute sovereign or the social contract at this point. He is absolutely not arguing in support of social cooperation, tribalism or teamwork, nor is he, in this passage, delineating how people should be governed. Rather, this is an exposition of the (entirely fictional and logically inconsistent) State of Nature that occurs when all individuals are sovereign and we see the results of unbridled sovereignty and no recognition of the practical imperatives that lead to government. The quoted passage has nothing to do with in-group/out-group, violation of social compacts, or "claiming the benefits of the tribe". Simply put, this is a description of how Hobbes views a world where everyone maintains authority and sovereignty over themselves with no consideration for others.

What comes from the State of Nature and the Laws of Nature are mutual covenants amongst individuals that submit/transfer individual rights to a truly sovereign authority (absolute government). Very simply: "I'll give up being able to kill anyone I want if it means I myself am not killed. We don't want to live like this, somebody needs to make sure everyone follows the rules and doesn't kill one another." Violation of the social contract is prevented by the compulsion of laws and the fear of punishment - punishment is really the only mechanism afforded to a sovereign to maintain the compact in this theory. This is not equivalent to being excluded from claiming the benefits of the "tribe". Hobbes was a monarchist - to be fair though, he was kind of pigeonholed into it given his historical context. Doc is correct in this, Bacchus is not interpreting Hobbes' ultimate vision for how we should be governed appropriately. However, in the modern, hockey-themed context I wouldn't equate the transferring of rights to an absolute sovereign as being equivalent to only "taking the goods of [their] subjects without their consent" - this type of political theory goes far beyond that.

It's worth noting that a workers' pursuit of self-determination is not necessarily exclusive of absolute sovereignty. Neither could we claim that Bergevin has absolute sovereignty or authority in this matter or be able to adequately problematize a fully self-determining form of hockey economics. Where we're really going off the rails here is applying Hobbes' political theory to a micro-scale labour conflict. Hobbes' theory is being applied inappropriately and out of context. There are several other political theorists that would be better suited to addressing this issue.

Please define a “quasi-geometrical system” for practical purposes of a human in society.

WTF does that mean

This is a very in-depth and niche concept that requires a lot of background knowledge on Hobbes' philosophy of science and how it applies to his moral and political philosophy. He has written on many topics and his civil philosophy is closely tied to his philosophy of science. *Hobbes' quasi-geometrical political system is, essentially, the application of the reasoning/logic used in Geometry to the study of moral and political philosophy.* The reason that it is quasi-geometrical is that he wasn't always consistent in applying this reasoning/logic - lots of discussion as to how Hobbes envisions a science of civil philosophy. Understanding this serves no "human in society" any practical purpose, it just shows us how/why he came to his conclusions.

That's my take. Some good resources for this topic are here:

Hobbes’s Moral and Political Philosophy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Hobbes’ Philosophy of Science (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Belial]

How was he playing with Pitlick, they're both centres. Also, his TOI was higher than any other centre on the team including Schmaltz.

You should probably inform yourself better before trying to be the king of the internet...

Pitlick took 15 FO last season while Dvorak took 1062 FO.

I don't think any more commentary is needed.

 

[Habano]

You should probably inform yourself better before trying to be the king of the internet...

Pitlick took 15 FO last season while Dvorak took 1062 FO.

I don't think any more commentary is needed.

Maybe I jumped the gun on Pittlick but why don't you check the link in my post before spewing misinformation in a way only you can.

Show me where he was playing with Pitlick and Crouse for the season genius!

You're right! No further commentary is needed.

 

[Belial]

Maybe I jumped the gun on Pittlick but why don't you check the link in my post before spewing misinformation in a way only you can.

Show me where he was playing with Pitlick and Crouse for the season genius!

You're right! No further commentary is needed.

 

[Habano]

Why don't you link it so we can see how many minutes he played with other line mates

 

[Belial]

Why don't you link it so we can see how many minutes he played with other line mates

Your premise is already dead! There's no point in going forward.

And yeah if you didn't notice the TOI is in decreasing order so as I said his most common linemates were Crouse and Pitlick.

 

[Hostile Offer]

MB got caught off guard with the offer sheet for sure but he played his cards well after that IMO. I like this deal, but I'd have preferred to keep KK at the modest bridge deal he was supposed to get. This whole saga was a mess but at the end of it all you could do worse than KK+2nd for Dvorak+3rd.

 

[Belial]

MB got caught off guard with the offer sheet for sure but he played his cards well after that IMO. I like this deal, but I'd have preferred to keep KK at the modest bridge deal he was supposed to get. This whole saga was a mess but at the end of it all you could do worse than KK+2nd for Dvorak+3rd.

And you think Bergevin didn't try to sign KK for less?

How the majority of posters are blaming this on Bergeving is just mindboggling!

 

[Hostile Offer]

And you think Bergevin didn't try to sign KK for less?

How the majority of posters are blaming this on Bergeving is just mindboggling!

Can't tell what the situation between MB and KK was but the point is it never should've come to that offer sheet. MB started the whole thing with the Aho OS, read that wrong and got burned.

 

[Belial]

Can't tell what the situation between MB and KK was but the point is it never should've come to that offer sheet. MB started the whole thing with the Aho OS, read that wrong and got burned.

Of course... Are you aware that there's plenty of other RFA's unsigned around the league right now? So by your logic, all the GMs in this league are morons, right?