Can we please trade Gardiner now?

[ToneDog]

He’s a putrid player.

I can’t bare to watch him anymore. If game 7 wasn’t enough to get this guy out then this entire season should be. Horrendous horrendous player

To honor Gards, the league is going to come up with a new stats. Braincramps/60 mins. Seriously on one hand I pity the team that signs Gards on July 1st as I did the teams that signed JVR/TyBo/Leo last year. On the other I can see Gards looking good in a different sweater similar to Leivo. Either way I will not miss Gards, the same way I do not miss JVR/TyBo/Leo.

 

[Macallan18]

i will say this (again)

I understand and appreciate the things that Jake brings.
i would rather us start committing to some defensemen who are more defensively sound. This doesn't mean "Non puck moving plugs." or whatever just those who are more dedicated into NOT being all about the offense we have many high event defensemen it would be nice to balance that with some just... "stay at home" (for a lack of a better term) but around these parts.

i'd rather the Leafs not really commit to jake. it's time to move on.

yup, lets dump our worst defensemen for "high events' aka giveaways....which would be... gasp...MORGAN RIELLY?
OMG he has 62 giveaways this year compared to Jake's 50.
Problem is, our fans our blind to Morgan's faults, and pounce on Jakes. (Jake is far more responsible defensively, Morgan has better offense).
And as far as the eyetest nonsense, if you want to rely on it, better get out some graph paper before the game and make some tables and actually
COUNT the giveaways and gaffes, etc.
It won't be Jake at the top of the list.
Oh well, all the Jake haters will be happy next year when some other team scoops him up at $6mil plus, and we give Zaitsev more ice time!!!

 

[DougGilmour93]

yup, lets dump our worst defensemen for "high events' aka giveaways....which would be... gasp...MORGAN RIELLY?
OMG he has 62 giveaways this year compared to Jake's 50.
Problem is, our fans our blind to Morgan's faults, and pounce on Jakes. (Jake is far more responsible defensively, Morgan has better offense).
And as far as the eyetest nonsense, if you want to rely on it, better get out some graph paper before the game and make some tables and actually
COUNT the giveaways and gaffes, etc.
It won't be Jake at the top of the list.
Oh well, all the Jake haters will be happy next year when some other team scoops him up at $6mil plus, and we give Zaitsev more ice time!!!

What you don’t seem to understand is, Jakes gaffes lead to scoring chances or goals against.
Reilly’s, aren’t as costly.

 

[pcruz]

if there are takers, sign me up, he won't be back get a asset and package it with Zaitev. Addition by subtraction............

That’s not how it works.
We would need more than suitable replacements for those 2 and Liljigren isn’t ready yet. Neither is Holl or any other Marlies player.

As much as I can’t stand the defensive gaffes and brutal mistakes combined with soft play, Gardiner brings quite a bit to the team as well as eating up major minutes.

We need to shelter him to maximize his effectiveness while minimizing his flaws.

That’s on the staff.

Let him walk in the summer, but we’ll need him this Spring.

 

[FerrisRox]

no, Dubas is not going to trade our 2nd best dman before the cup run because some fans don't understand his value. sorry

Do you seriously rank Gardiner ahead of Muzzin?

 

[ToneDog]

Do you seriously rank Gardiner ahead of Muzzin?

You don't let your #2 dman walk and pay your 4th best forward $7M. Muzzin is more valuable than Gards to this team but hard to compare the two because one is an apple and the other an orange.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Actually wo Jake Zaitsev is a better player than Gardiner.
The Gardiner-Zaitsev pair was brutal for both of them and for the team too.
Zaitsev paired anyone whos not Jake is a good player.

Nope. Zaitsev has brought down everyone he has been paired with, while it's the opposite with Gardiner. With Zaitsev, you need someone to babysit him to help with transitioning out.

 

[Nalens Oga]

Y'all arguing about Gardiner vs Zaitsev meanwhile I'm here going they both suck, get rid of them both.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

What you don’t seem to understand is, Jakes gaffes lead to scoring chances or goals against.

Reilly’s, aren’t as costly.

Why do you think this is an accurate statement? Serious question.

Gardiner (58%) has the best goals-for % of any Leaf over the past 3 seasons. We outscore other teams the most with Jake on the ice; more than any other player. Nylander and Matthews are 2nd and 3rd (both above 56.6%). Zaitsev (48%) is last of 16 players (minimum 1,500 minutes).

I know that this doesn't tell the whole story, but it clearly discredits your point. He does not cost us goals more than Rielly based on the actual evidence of...goals for and against.

 

[budzz]

Fact is Gardner is a very good offensive D-man. But yes his defence is offensive. I hear this argument on sports radio all the time, and usually it ends up the host saying something like "I don't get all the hate, he makes a few mistakes but is soooo good!"

Thing is in a tight game, or game 7, he WILL make a huge gaff and give the puck away at the wrong time. It has happened ALOT... he gets stage fright when things are tight. Elite puck movers are great and all, but this team has enough offense that we could absorb a lesser puck mover that could actually defend when the going is tough and the games on the line. It is along the same lines as Bozak and JVR... "how are we going to replace all those goals???". yes but what about the lousy defence and all the goals they give up when on the ice?

Swapping out Gards for a D-Man that can actually play D and make the odd hit would be addition by subtraction IMHO, and would save my fingernails in the 3rd period of any game 7.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Y'all arguing about Gardiner vs Zaitsev meanwhile I'm here going they both suck, get rid of them both.

Except you're only half right.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Fact is Gardner is a very good offensive D-man. But yes his defence is offensive. I hear this argument on sports radio all the time, and usually it ends up the host saying something like "I don't get all the hate, he makes a few mistakes but is soooo good!"

Thing is in a tight game, or game 7, he WILL make a huge gaff and give the puck away at the wrong time. It has happened ALOT... he gets stage fright when things are tight. Elite puck movers are great and all, but this team has enough offense that we could absorb a lesser puck mover that could actually defend when the going is tough and the games on the line. It is along the same lines as Bozak and JVR... "how are we going to replace all those goals???". yes but what about the lousy defence and all the goals they give up when on the ice?

Swapping out Gards for a D-Man that can actually play D and make the odd hit would be addition by subtraction IMHO, and would save my fingernails in the 3rd period of any game 7.

He has been our best D in 2 of the 3 playoff series he's played in. Heck, he was good until the 7th game of the 3rd series too.

With JVR/Bozak, it was different. They produced points, but they NEVER drove possession and had a shit ton of chances against. With Gardiner, he drives possession AND does NOT have a shit ton of chances against. It's just those odd brainfarts. To some, those seem worse than if a normal D man gives the puck away 5 times but it's not ... The reason Dubas and Babcock love Gardiner is because he transitions the puck to our forwards, which is our strength, extremely effectivrly and efficiently. He's average in removing puck from player, but moving the puck is his forte and Dubas has mentioned multiple times he wants his Dmen to be nimble and smart with transition plays.

That being said, the type of Dman I want? Muzzin. Has almost has good breakouts as Jake Gardiner + the strong defensive presence.

IMO it is time to move on from Gardiner, but not for the reason you're saying. If we could afford it, we would keep him. But we can't.

 

[DougGilmour93]

Why do you think this is an accurate statement? Serious question.

Gardiner (58%) has the best goals-for % of any Leaf over the past 3 seasons. We outscore other teams the most with Jake on the ice; more than any other player. Nylander and Matthews are 2nd and 3rd (both above 56.6%). Zaitsev (48%) is last of 16 players (minimum 1,500 minutes).

I know that this doesn't tell the whole story, but it clearly discredits your point. He does not cost us goals more than Rielly based on the actual evidence of...goals for and against.

I love how all these analytical stats are the word of God and the eye test doesn’t hold much weight anymore.

Today’s fans (that hold analytics in high esteem) seem to be clueless on what hockey really is. It’s frustrating really. I feel sorry for those who put all their marbles in the analytical basket.

As an example, Marincin was a analytical marvel, but in the end, where did he end up? On waivers and now in the minors.

I’m a fan that, well, watches hockey. I have been watching hockey since the late 80’s. I can tell you who sucks and who doesn’t.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I love how all these analytical stats are the word of God and the eye test doesn’t hold much weight anymore.

Today’s fans (that hold analytics in high esteem) seem to be clueless on what hockey really is. It’s frustrating really. I feel sorry for those who put all their marbles in the analytical basket.

As an example, Marincin was a analytical marvel, but in the end, where did he end up? On waivers and now in the minors.

I’m a fan that, well, watches hockey. I have been watching hockey since the late 80’s. I can tell you who sucks and who doesn’t.

Analytics told us Marincin was extremely effective in preventing zone entries? Do you disagree with that?

 

[jimmycarter]

Gardiner needed to go three seasons ago.

I’m tired of his mouth open thousand yard stare like he has no idea where he is

 

[hector morrison]

I love how all these analytical stats are the word of God and the eye test doesn’t hold much weight anymore.

Today’s fans (that hold analytics in high esteem) seem to be clueless on what hockey really is. It’s frustrating really. I feel sorry for those who put all their marbles in the analytical basket.

As an example, Marincin was a analytical marvel, but in the end, where did he end up? On waivers and now in the minors.

I’m a fan that, well, watches hockey. I have been watching hockey since the late 80’s. I can tell you who sucks and who doesn’t.

Stats are useful,but do not paint a complete picture. I would have traded Jake last summer. Not because he is lousy,quite the opposite. He is an effortless skater with terrific offensive upside.

The recurring theme is that mentally ,he is susceptible to mistakes in pressure situations,which lead to moments like the game 7 Boston series. Not sure there is a fix for that.

For those who may not know...he was a winger before someone thought he would be a better offensive dman.

 

[DougGilmour93]

Analytics told us Marincin was extremely effective in preventing zone entries? Do you disagree with that?

What I know is that Marincin is not an NHL caliber defensemen. And I’m not the only one. Hence he’s in the minors.

 

[DougGilmour93]

Ideally we treat this like a business and deal our asset that will no doubt price himself out of our range. Not to mention I think he sucks.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

What I know is that Marincin is not an NHL caliber defensemen. And I’m not the only one. Hence he’s in the minors.

Which is what others are saying as well? Not sure what you're complaining about in regards to analytics.

They said he was extremley effective at preventing zone entries, which he is. How to utilize that? It's up to the team/coach. If we can't find a way to utilize that skill of his , then yes he does he belong in the AHL.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Quite frankly, I'm on the trade Gardiner boat mostly because he can be replaced internally and we can use the assets to improve our team in a more meaningful way.

Everyone else can debate Gardiner's deficiencies.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Stats are useful,but do not paint a complete picture. I would have traded Jake last summer. Not because he is lousy,quite the opposite. He is an effortless skater with terrific offensive upside.

The recurring theme is that mentally ,he is susceptible to mistakes in pressure situations,which lead to moments like the game 7 Boston series. Not sure there is a fix for that.

For those who may not know...he was a winger before someone thought he would be a better offensive dman.

In regards to the bolded, that's not true at all. I'm one of his bigger fans and I'll say this, those mistakes he makes occur regardless if it is a pressure situation or not. He's shown throughout his career this, that those mistakes are random and not directly related to high pressure situations. Just take his playoff resume for example. 2 out of the 3 playoff series, he has been our best D man.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

In regards to the bolded, that's not true at all. I'm one of his bigger fans and I'll say this, those mistakes he makes occur regardless if it is a pressure situation or not. He's shown throughout his career this, that those mistakes are random and not directly related to high pressure situations. Just take his playoff resume for example. 2 out of the 3 playoff series, he has been our best D man.

The thing in those playoff series is that in all of them, there were games where he was not good and cost the team. Regardless of his mean performance, he has always had variance problems and you never know what you get on any given night. There are nights he is the best defenseman (although those are increasingly rare this season) and many nights where he is easily the worst. As people eluded to, in an 82 game season you may be able to get away with that (although it's still bad enough to be noticeable and generally unacceptable), but in a 7 game series, you can not have all of these inconsistent performances. There is a small margin of error, and Gardiner by far needs the largest one on the team to be effective in the long term.

 

[hector morrison]

In regards to the bolded, that's not true at all. I'm one of his bigger fans and I'll say this, those mistakes he makes occur regardless if it is a pressure situation or not. He's shown throughout his career this, that those mistakes are random and not directly related to high pressure situations. Just take his playoff resume for example. 2 out of the 3 playoff series, he has been our best D man.

Let's say the game 7 situation presents itself again this year. You putting Jake on the ice?

 

[Mr Hockey]

Let's say the game 7 situation presents itself again this year. You putting Jake on the ice?

I would be concerned about Freddy letting in a couple soft goals

 

[hector morrison]

I would be concerned about Freddy letting in a couple soft goals

Let's not go there....You don't win the Cup without a hot goalie!