OT: Can I ask? Why is there no love for brutes anymore? Probert? McCarty?

[Mlotek]

While it may be disappointing how much Abdelkader's overall game has fallen off the last two seasons, the depiction of Abdelkader as a snake and coward is not true at all. His 31 scraps were not hitting guys who were down. Attacking Blumbden I agree was an ugly and stupid act where I think he just lost his mind, but for the most part Abdelkader has done a decent job sticking up for himself and his teammates.

This must be part of what the Wings valued in JA. When you've got a team of mostly passive, smaller, skill players may be you feel you need someone who can be that physical threat.

Nice of him to stand up for Larkin, by jumping the guy from behind.... still goes down to ice first.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

Nice of him to stand up for Larkin, by jumping the guy from behind.... still goes down to ice first.

This right here is one of my biggest problems with the game today. There was nothing wrong with that hit but Abdelkader has to jump in and fight the guy. Why? Are players not allowed to throw big, clean hits anymore? I don’t remember this happening before the first lockout. The last 7 years or so it’s been alarming how that mindset has emerged.

 

[Winger98]

If someone threw a hit like that on Yzerman thirty years ago, Probert would have beaten the living hell out of them far worse than what Gator did to Emelin.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

At least Big Rig would win his fights. Abby losses around 80% of them.

Abby's fighting strategy has always been the sneaky tactic of letting his opponent tire out by repeatedly punching him in the face as he stands there, before ripping a 25% accuracy haymaker at the end.

 

[Henkka]

If you have time, “Ice Guardians” is a great documentary on Netflix. It tackles this whole issue really well and seems to side with keeping enforcers in the game. Joe Kocur, Dave Schultz, Brett Hull, Chris Chelios, Kelly Chase, Wendel Clark, along with some doctors, and other experts all make appearances and give opinions. It’s definitely worth watching.

Thanks for reminding. Was just trying to find something from Netflix...

very hot summer day here in Finland...

and nothing is better than watch a hockey document on outside terrace.

 

[Wings4Life]

I think witkowski's team mates fully appreciate his presence. Say what you will about the role for "big body" guys on the team. Witkowski and guys like him are always appreciated by me as a fan.

I have never thought complaining about your 4th line leads you in a positive direction.

If our team has problems (cant win)... it will be the top 6 players that are not dominating... Not the bottom 3 who cant chip in.

Its hard to find skilled big body guys like McCarty anymore, of course i think McCarty made the NHL as having offensive prowess, not a face puncher.

True on that last part, McCarty was considered a scoring line forward and was our top line Right Wing in that historic 1996-97 season.

 

[odin1981]

Abby's fighting strategy has always been the sneaky tactic of letting his opponent tire out by repeatedly punching him in the face as he stands there, before ripping a 25% accuracy haymaker at the end.

Don't forget the fall over on miss and sad attempt and a drag down for posterity so that the refs break it up.

 

[Henkka]

True on that last part, McCarty was considered a scoring line forward and was our top line Right Wing in that historic 1996-97 season.

Tough to name the top line from this TOP9:

Sandstrom - Yzerman - McCarty
Kozlov - Fedorov - Brown
Shanahan - Larionov - Lapointe

Imo, there was three top lines in all cases where Stevie, Fedex and Shanny will play separately.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Don't forget the Blackhawks won their cups in '13 and '15 as the least physical team in the league.

They may not have played a physical style per se, but the Hawks certainly had guys whose purpose was to stick up for teammates and little else on those rosters.

In '13, they had Carcillo, Bollig and Mayers and in '15 Carcillo was still there.

Ironically, the Red Wings had one less fighting major in '13 and WAY less in '15...

Witkowski isn't necessary. I'd rather take some lumps for a while and hope one or two of Detroit's prospects can evolve into skilled players who are unafraid to answer the bell if needed. We know the club likely disapproves but Mantha has shown he will stand up for the team, Athanasiou and Bertuzzi have also fought. As long as we have a few guys who aren't pushovers the team doesn't need an Ott or Witkowski.

That's actually a big reason why they signed guys like Ott and Witkowski (other than for C and D depth, respectively) in the first place.

They don't want guys that can actually help them win games being taken off the ice for 5 minutes or longer in a game for fighting, or in Mantha's case, missing entire games because he got hurt in a fight.

The Red Wings said the exact same thing in 96-97. "As long as we have a few guys who aren't pushovers the team doesn't need Stu Grimson". By December, you had Mickey Redmond lamenting the Wings losing useful/productive guys like Shanahan, McCarty, LaPointe and Konstantinov to fighting majors and allowing poor Jamie Pushor to do his best impersonation of a punching bag. Right before the new year started, Joey Kocur then became the newest Red Wing...

 

[ricky0034]

They may not have played a physical style per se, but the Hawks certainly had guys whose purpose was to stick up for teammates and little else on those rosters.

In '13, they had Carcillo, Bollig and Mayers and in '15 Carcillo was still there.

Ironically, the Red Wings had one less fighting major in '13 and WAY less in '15...

I bet those three guys contributed so much in the combined 9 games they played in the Playoffs

also Carcillo wasn't "still" there in '15,he played on two different teams the next year then came back for '15(and played 0 games in the Playoffs)

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Tough to name the top line from this TOP9:

Sandstrom - Yzerman - McCarty
Kozlov - Fedorov - Brown
Shanahan - Larionov - Lapointe

Imo, there was three top lines in all cases where Stevie, Fedex and Shanny will play separately.

Hard to be a forgettable piece on the top line of a cup-winning team, but my goodness was Sandstrom forgettable.

I think of Bob freaking Rouse before him when I think of players on that roster.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I bet those three guys contributed so much in the combined 9 games they played in the Playoffs

also Carcillo wasn't "still" there in '15,he played on two different teams the next year then came back for '15(and played 0 games in the Playoffs)

I guess it's a good thing I didn't single out playoffs then, huh? They were called (ironically on the RW board) the softest team "in the league" which to me would also encompass the regular season... Where they easily secured home ice advantage for the duration of the playoffs, while Quenneville had at least one of those three guys I mentioned dressed in every single game. And that's completely leaving out physical guys like Shaw and Bickell that did play every playoff game for them in '13. Even so, 9 out of 23 is still a pretty good chunk of their playoff games to have one of those guys dressed, especially when you consider they didn't need one for 7 games against the RW (where Carcillo dressed for games 1 and 2).

As for '15, I forgot about Carcillos stint outside Chi in between. I also forgot that Andrew Desjardins, who lead the Sharks in fighting majors prior to being traded to the Hawks, was on that team and dressed for most of their playoff games.

It was just a poor argument against signing guys like Ott and Witkowski while using the example of "softest teams" that were successful while also employing their own Ott's and Witkowski's...

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

If someone threw a hit like that on Yzerman thirty years ago, Probert would have beaten the living hell out of them far worse than what Gator did to Emelin.

Yes, when it’s a star player then I totally get the logic. But my problem is I feel like it happens 90% of the time any run of the mill player gets hit.

 

[newfy]

Because that type of play has lead to players being brain damaged and killing themselves.

This is a pretty lazy argument. WHo has this happened to exactly again? Rypiens the best argument for this and he spiralled into depression for years after his nephew died. People knew about his mental health problems long before he killed himself. Boogard was an OD for a pain killer addiction, back issues playing an extremely physical game led to moreso than fighting. Probert was heart issues from cocaine, Belak wasnt a suicide etc..

For all the guys that have apparently killed themselves because of fighting, I would make the argument that they already had issues that led them to want to fight (Rypiens case) or other issues like drug addiction leading to an earlier death. It doesnt help, but saying fighting makes them brain damaged and kill themselves is lazy

Nice of him to stand up for Larkin, by jumping the guy from behind.... still goes down to ice first.

I mean, you clearly have an agenda in this thread but I'll bite. Thats a dirty, dangerous hit on a young star on the team, Abby lands 7 or 8 punches, splits the guy open and youre going to complain and said he hit the ice first? Thats exactly when someone should be fighting in todays NHL and youre going to complain....Okkkkkkkkkk

If someone threw a hit like that on Yzerman thirty years ago, Probert would have beaten the living hell out of them far worse than what Gator did to Emelin.

Seriously, thats a cheap shot nowadays and fans are going to call Abdelkader dirty for doing that? Mccarty, who scored a nasty cup winning goal's most famous moment in his career is him absolutely suckering and beating a turtling player to a pulp and then kneeing him in the face when the refs jump in. And everyone in here is pumping his tires.

 

[PullHard]

This is a pretty lazy argument. WHo has this happened to exactly again? Rypiens the best argument for this and he spiralled into depression for years after his nephew died. People knew about his mental health problems long before he killed himself. Boogard was an OD for a pain killer addiction, back issues playing an extremely physical game led to moreso than fighting. Probert was heart issues from cocaine, Belak wasnt a suicide etc..

For all the guys that have apparently killed themselves because of fighting, I would make the argument that they already had issues that led them to want to fight (Rypiens case) or other issues like drug addiction leading to an earlier death. It doesnt help, but saying fighting makes them brain damaged and kill themselves is lazy

I guess I'm lazy

 

[Bench]

I guess I'm lazy

It's true. All you've done is consider the ever growing mountain of evidence that CTE fosters crippling depression, subsequent drug use, and personality changes.

It takes real effort to ignore all that.

 

[Henkka]

I could think goon-culture could come back, because nowadays they now know better about the concussions. And doctors can treat them better, so people won't go to self-treatreatmet with wrong medicines etc.

In 20-30 years ago, there was amfetamins and everything bad shit on the play and teams didn't care about the individual. That did lead depression and death in some cases. Not everybody died. When this medical awareness changes, it's totally a different field to start heavyweights being real enforcers again.

They just need to handle that lawsuit first.

 

[Bench]

I could think goon-culture could come back, because nowadays they now know better about the concussions. And doctors can treat them better, so people won't go to self-treatreatmet with wrong medicines etc.

Treatments for CTE are reducing symptoms, not curative. Presently there's no magic pills to reverse repeated brain damage. Knowledge about concussions has led to big enhancements in identification and, by far most importantly, prevention.

EDIT: I can't type.

 

[Henkka]

Treatments for CTE are reducing symptoms, not curative. Presently there's no way magic pills to reverse repeated brain damage. Knowledge about concussions has lead to big enhancements in identification and, by far most importantly, prevention.

Head-batting sports aren't gonna disappear, because there will always be humans who like that kind sport. No matter what are causes. That's human nature. You just need some ruling around it, when they sign it, they know the name of the game.

There will be a long line of guys who have willingness to take those risks in a short period of fame and bigger money than working 40 years at McDonalds.

 

[TatarTangle]

Head-batting sports aren't gonna disappear, because there will always be humans who like that kind sport. No matter what are causes. That's human nature. You just need some ruling around it, when they sign it, they know the name of the game.

There will be a long line of guys who have willingness to take those risks in a short period of fame and bigger money than working 40 years at McDonalds.

They probably don't know you can be a 300 pound employee and throw customers around like a rag doll and take the nation by storm

(I'm sure she was fired, it's a joke)

 

[vladdy16]

What is this thread even about? Goons are by definition below average hockey players. McCarty and Probert weren't Goons, they were effective players that also happened to be really tough fighters. Plenty of the best and most skilled players used to fight. Over time that changed, and the only players left fighting were guys not good enough to do anything else.

The loss of the Enforcer role is no great tragedy, in fact it's a role that only cropped up a couple of times in history, for a handful of years. The health effects of the role are well documented.

Make the ice bigger. and the neutral zone the correct size, allowing for measured and horizontal play to have a role in hockey again, and less activity from the referees, and you'll get to see more confrontation between skill players again.

 

[Bench]

What is this thread even about? Goons are by definition below average hockey players. McCarty and Probert weren't Goons, they were effective players that also happened to be really tough fighters. Plenty of the best and most skilled players used to fight. Over time that changed, and the only players left fighting were guys not good enough to do anything else.

The loss of the Enforcer role is no great tragedy, in fact it's a role that only cropped up a couple of times in history, for a handful of years. The health effects of the role are well documented.

Make the ice bigger. and the neutral zone the correct size, allowing for measured and horizontal play to have a role in hockey again, and less activity from the referees, and you'll get to see more confrontation between skill players again.

Thank you. The guys we're talking about today as "enforcers" are a far cry from the likes of Bob Probert. When one of our tough guys puts up a 29 goal, 62 point season with 398 penalty minutes, then we can talk about comparisons and why they aren't getting the same love.

The players being pushed out aren't tough players, it's tough brawlers like George Parros (career points 36, penalty minutes 1092) who only serve to drop the gloves with the opposing teams enforcer for a basically staged fisticuffs.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I could think goon-culture could come back, because nowadays they now know better about the concussions. And doctors can treat them better, so people won't go to self-treatreatmet with wrong medicines etc.

IMO, the concussion/long term health narrative is what will keep it from really making a comeback. That and all the latest rule changes that help deter it (instigator, helmet removal, mandatory visors, junior limits, etc. etc.).

Most of that was probably strengthened after the last time fighting made a "comeback". Fighting dropped pretty heavily after the lockout, until the Ducks gooned their way to the 2007 Cup. Made perfect sense then, when you could send out and sacrifice Brad May for the tail end of his 5 minutes of ice time and have him sucker punch and take out the other teams best dman. Or have your two best Dmen team up to slam a guys head into the glass and only lose one for a game. The rest of the league decided to follow suit, including the Red Wings. But at that point, the league and media hadn't yet perfected the notion that every fighter was one punch or one concussion away from having a miserable post hockey existence that will end tragically maybe even at their own hand.

The way I see it going forward, is guys like Tom Wilson, Zach Kassian, Wayne Simmonds, etc. etc. having the same ire as enforcers once did. That or having the role bestowed upon lighter weight 4th line/3rd pairing guys that can skate/kill penalities/etc. Kind of like when the Red Wings had McCarty handle the enforcer role when Kocur was injured and eventually retired.

The days of guys like John Scott, Boogaard, Twist, etc etc being on rosters as a one trick pony are probably over for good.

 

[ShelbyZ]

The players being pushed out aren't tough players, it's tough brawlers like George Parros (career points 36, penalty minutes 1092) who only serve to drop the gloves with the opposing teams enforcer for a basically staged fisticuffs.

I think this kinda hits the nail on the head. Didn't help any when the "enforcer" role turned more into a "game within a game", where the heavyweight from each team battled for some imaginary championship belt, bragging rights or some air time on a Don Cherry VHS tape and had much less impact on the game itself. IIRC, in Georges Laraques last stop in Montreal, the guy did nothing but hunt out staged fights while providing no real enforcement or anything to the game itself. This also brought about doormat teams like the post-Roenick/Chelios Hawks that piled guys like Probert, Ciccone, Cummins, VandenBusche etc. not to protect valuable players, but to goon it up and engage in staged fights to keep the fans interested.

Then again, the instigator rule made it where fights almost had to be staged in some way...

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Thank you. The guys we're talking about today as "enforcers" are a far cry from the likes of Bob Probert. When one of our tough guys puts up a 29 goal, 62 point season with 398 penalty minutes, then we can talk about comparisons and why they aren't getting the same love.

The players being pushed out aren't tough players, it's tough brawlers like George Parros (career points 36, penalty minutes 1092) who only serve to drop the gloves with the opposing teams enforcer for a basically staged fisticuffs.

Probert also scored 21 points in the playoffs that year and held the record in playoff points on the Wings until Fedorov broke it in 1995 (Yzerman would later tie Feds record). Quite the season.

Seeing Probert play in the All Star game that year was hilarious and awesome.

(skip to the 42:40 mark)