OT: Can I ask? Why is there no love for brutes anymore? Probert? McCarty?

[PelagicJoe]

Physicality is a plus, almost necessary for a defensive player. While it might be bad for hockeyplayers health to have brutal players in the NHL, its good for the team defense.

Skilled player however is not meant to be sitting in the box or sitting out a suspension. So...what Im saying pick brutal players for the bottom six and soft but skilled fancy pants for the tip six.

That was our formula from the Yzerman era all the way up to the last cup run.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Specifically to the OP, I know Tootoo was a great redemption story but I don't like the way he played the game. Yes he fought above his weight class but he often started those fights by jumping guys. He'd have thrown three or four haymakers before the other guy even gets his gloves off. He also threw some big hits but did so by taking himself way out of position and oftentimes was borderline late/charging.

And Ott was a rat. He doesn't belong in the same post as Probert, Kocur or even Witkowski.

I grew up watching Probert and Kocur in their prime. I remember being at a game where Kocur KO'd a guy with one punch. It was incredible. But knowing what I do now about concussions and the lifelong devastating effects they can have, I can't really get excited for that like I used to as a kid.

But I still get it. When Laperriere caught Lidstrom with a butt end on a hit and nearly KO'd him, I was glad we had Downey on the team to at least make him answer for it. Honestly at the time I wish we had a prime Probert to feed Lappy his few remaining teeth.

So I get it, but it's hard for me to enjoy that kind of stuff as much after those enforcers died and hearing so many stories of the toll it takes on them physically and mentally.

 

[82Ninety42011]

Because it is entertaining at the time, but at its core is a novelty? Does gladitorial combat where slaves and criminals fight against lions have a place in society? I mean, people in stadiums were on their feet watching.

People pay big bucks for UFC and Boxing should that be considered removed from society as well? Don't compare slaves to players choosing to fight it's not the same .

 

[SCD]

Unfortunately, over the years, NHL has been fairly inept at punishing dirty plays and players. It has got better in recent years.

It took a long time for a player like Gudas to finally get disciplined for head hunting. His elbow to Franzen accelerated Johan's demise. No penalty was ever called on that hit in the corner. Would that hit have happened if Probert was on the ice? Probably. But it might not happen a second time.

Concussions are a serious problem, and we will never go back to old-time hockey. But, the NHL has to do a better job protecting it's players form dirty hits. Larkin was run a few times last year. One serious injury and this rebuild will take a different direction.

 

[HIFE]

I'm thankful that fighting hasn't been erased from the game at the pro or junior level, and probably never will. Like most of us I'm also glad it's place has gotten toned down.

Washington is a great example of employing physicality in their gameplan. What makes a player like Oshie so effective is his ability to use the body, especially creating space for himself. Then they've got/had Orphik and Wilson who are ready to go at a moments notice. I would think a team wants at least one guy who will throw down a few times a year, but even that may be a dying strategy. Don't forget the Blackhawks won their cups in '13 and '15 as the least physical team in the league.

In the 2010's we've had Ericsson and Abdelkader playing the role of fighter (which they did a fine job of IMO). Now with Abdelkader's cheek bone broken and Big Rig aging they seem to be shying away from it. But considering a rival such as Toronto that barely has a single fighter, do the Wings really want to waste a roster spot on a one-dimensional enforcer/energy type?

Witkowski isn't necessary. I'd rather take some lumps for a while and hope one or two of Detroit's prospects can evolve into skilled players who are unafraid to answer the bell if needed. We know the club likely disapproves but Mantha has shown he will stand up for the team, Athanasiou and Bertuzzi have also fought. As long as we have a few guys who aren't pushovers the team doesn't need an Ott or Witkowski.

 

[kliq]

I've been a long, longtime viewer of this site and board. I finally joined. And I must say, it really makes me sick all the comments I've seen over the years about Tootoo, Ott, Witkowski. I'm asking all Red Wings fans. WHY the hate?

Tootoo was a great redemption story. He had personal demons, he was NOT a big guy, but he loved putting it all on the line. Ott was obviously a guy who couldn't fight well. But my god did he love to do it to get the boys and the fans going. Witkowski is a Michigan kid living out his dream. I know him from some sports related events and he's a great person who loves doing what it takes to help the team, whether that's a fight or sitting in the press box. Literally anything to live the dream being in the NHL.

Do we all not remember the guys like Kocur, Probert, McCarty. Let's add Shanny, Downey, hell even Pushor to the list. Those guys were a part of historic seasons (Pushor with the first scrap of Bloody Wednesday, Downey with his name on the cup and the beating of Laperriere). The Avs/Wings. More recently, the Bolts/Ducks vs. the Wings. Hell, even the Stars and Blues, we had plenty of moments.

I know the game has changed. So be it. I'm not asking you to say I'd prefer a Turgeon over Witkowski. I just want to clear the air that I don't like hearing the comments calling these guys plugs or saying they deserved to be waived. They are the ones who want to entertain us. They wear THE wheel. They want to stick up for their mates. They do anything it takes, if that means being punched in the face. They do it for us. Just like the names above. Let's show some love Wings fans.

P.S. - This was thought about watching videos of Ott fight Orpik, Wings/Calgary, and Mantha/McKegg. Orpik is a weasel but he's a bull, Ott waves the crowd on as he's getting hit. Mantha sees Larkin go face first into the boards, his teammate of only one year. Witkowski versus Calgary? I don't need to say much!

From an entertainment standpoint, I love fighting in hockey. As a kid, I used to absolutely go nuts for it. As an adult, its hard for me to get into it after hearing such horror stories from the guys who fought in the 80's, 90's and even 2000's. I feel guilty cheering guys on to do something that I know in the long run is going to hurt them, or in some cases lead to their death. Like most, if I'm at a game I'll get sucked into the moment (I was at the game where Mantha fought the Flames player in the entrance way) but then like I said above, I begin to feel guilty.

You are not likely going to hear me disrespect these guys, but I have a hard time cheering for fighters. Add the fact that the stats show that it doesn't have much of an impact on the actual game and it makes it that much harder to cheer for. Though I have a strong feeling you and I have discussed this before somewhere else.

 

[pz29]

McCarty had more skill then half of the current team.

 

[odin1981]

People pay big bucks for UFC and Boxing should that be considered removed from society as well? Don't compare slaves to players choosing to fight it's not the same .

UFC is pretty much criminal. The brand makes billions but individual fighters are lucky to get 250k a fight barring 1-3 fighters. At least boxing for the most part pays there champions well (millions) for what they risk. Though if you are a undercard boxer you don't make crap.

 

[Snuggs]

To me the game has become more skilled and less about physical play and more about what you can do with the puck on stick/open ice.

Less physical play in open ice/boarding has imo, caused teams and players to play faster games with less stoppages and less "policing" of reckless individuals.

To some degree I think fighting and player policing will always be apart of the game... especially with guys able and can take 20-25MHP runs at you knowing they don't have to really answer the call. Even, having the stick. Use it right play within the lines or you'll answer the bell from someone... It's like that all the way down to Bahtam. It'll be hard for hockey to fully weed out fighting imo.

Sheriffs now'a'days have to bring more than just toughness, though. Witowski sticks on our team for the moment imo because he can play either wing, and is a RHD. Allowing the young pups to play more minutes in the AHL than ride the pine/practice like Witowski mostly does.

 

[82Ninety42011]

UFC is pretty much criminal. The brand makes billions but individual fighters are lucky to get 250k a fight barring 1-3 fighters. At least boxing for the most part pays there champions well (millions) for what they risk. Though if you are a undercard boxer you don't make crap.

Truth be told I'm not a fan of either was just making point about comparing slaves to athletes choosing to fight.

 

[Mlotek]

In the 2010's we've had Ericsson and Abdelkader playing the role of fighter (which they did a fine job of IMO). Now with Abdelkader's cheek bone broken and Big Rig aging they seem to be shying away from it. But considering a rival such as Toronto that barely has a single fighter, do the Wings really want to waste a roster spot on a one-dimensional enforcer/energy type?

Witkowski isn't necessary. I'd rather take some lumps for a while and hope one or two of Detroit's prospects can evolve into skilled players who are unafraid to answer the bell if needed. We know the club likely disapproves but Mantha has shown he will stand up for the team, Athanasiou and Bertuzzi have also fought. As long as we have a few guys who aren't pushovers the team doesn't need an Ott or Witkowski.

I wouldn't consider Ericsson (the human pylon v2) an enforcer. He was always one of the weakest players on the body as well.

His 1-2 fights a year don't really qualify him as an 'enforcer'.

Adelkader is a pos who tended to hit guys when they were down. Too bad a guy like Witkowski wasn't around to punish him for it like he did Mantha. Doubt Mantha ever gonna do that again, Abbie has history of that from minors to NHL. Or even recall when he pummeld on Blumden when he was down? Scum.

 

[odin1981]

I wouldn't consider Ericsson (the human pylon v2) an enforcer. He was always one of the weakest players on the body as well.

His 1-2 fights a year don't really qualify him as an 'enforcer'.

Adelkader is a pos who tended to hit guys when they were down. Too bad a guy like Witkowski wasn't around to punish him for it like he did Mantha. Doubt Mantha ever gonna do that again, Abbie has history of that from minors to NHL. Or even recall when he pummeld on Blumden when he was down? Scum.

At least Big Rig would win his fights. Abby losses around 80% of them.

 

[HIFE]

I wouldn't consider Ericsson (the human pylon v2) an enforcer. He was always one of the weakest players on the body as well.

His 1-2 fights a year don't really qualify him as an 'enforcer'.

Adelkader is a pos who tended to hit guys when they were down. Too bad a guy like Witkowski wasn't around to punish him for it like he did Mantha. Doubt Mantha ever gonna do that again, Abbie has history of that from minors to NHL. Or even recall when he pummeld on Blumden when he was down? Scum.

Ericsson was never a pure enforcer but 16 NHL fights is enough to make your presence known to other teams, which in my mind is all you really need: someone to remind you if you take cheap-shots at Larkin or Nyquist, etc. there may be a price to pay.

While it may be disappointing how much Abdelkader's overall game has fallen off the last two seasons, the depiction of Abdelkader as a snake and coward is not true at all. His 31 scraps were not hitting guys who were down. Attacking Blumbden I agree was an ugly and stupid act where I think he just lost his mind, but for the most part Abdelkader has done a decent job sticking up for himself and his teammates.

This must be part of what the Wings valued in JA. When you've got a team of mostly passive, smaller, skill players may be you feel you need someone who can be that physical threat.

 

[FMichael]

While I'll be the 1st to admit having a soft-spot for guys who can drop the gloves, and stand up for a teammate - but in today's game if the player cannot play the game at a high level - they're worth to the team is questionable.

That said - it wouldn't surprise me to see some of our young guys get introduced to the plexiglass, or a shoulder pad courtesy of Tom Wilson, or Radko Gudas...

 

[FMichael]

Physicality is a plus, almost necessary for a defensive player. While it might be bad for hockeyplayers health to have brutal players in the NHL, its good for the team defense.

Skilled player however is not meant to be sitting in the box or sitting out a suspension. So...what Im saying pick brutal players for the bottom six and soft but skilled fancy pants for the tip six.

I recall reading in Yzerman's, and/or Probert's book - the first two rounds of the draft back in the 80's was for skill - rounds three, and up went for toughness.

 

[Mlotek]

Ericsson was never a pure enforcer but 16 NHL fights is enough to make your presence known to other teams, which in my mind is all you really need: someone to remind you if you take cheap-shots at Larkin or Nyquist, etc. there may be a price to pay.

While it may be disappointing how much Abdelkader's overall game has fallen off the last two seasons, the depiction of Abdelkader as a snake and coward is not true at all. His 31 scraps were not hitting guys who were down. Attacking Blumbden I agree was an ugly and stupid act where I think he just lost his mind, but for the most part Abdelkader has done a decent job sticking up for himself and his teammates.

This must be part of what the Wings valued in JA. When you've got a team of mostly passive, smaller, skill players may be you feel you need someone who can be that physical threat.

This is the same guy who launged into an unsuspecting player's head during the World championships costing USA the game with his 5 minute major. This was like 3 years back.

Yea its great he can stick up for himself and teammates.

But lets look at his 4 fights last season.

Ekblad fight was after Ekblad took exception to weak late hit from behind into boards.
Abbie got canopened and fought Brouwer who continued hitting him when he was down. Recall that is why Witkowski went after him.
Abdelkader kicks the legs out from Boychuk who reponds by punches.
Can't really tell why Perry was lighting Abbie.

But half those fights were a result of his dirty style of play.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Probert and Kocur and McCarty were able to do more than just fight though. They were able to contribute in multiple ways. And the simple reality is, these guys live on borrowed time after their careers, because of what it does to their brains. We need to marginalize this stuff just for the sake of player safety.

 

[avssuc]

Concussion protocol is the biggest factor. Fighting as well as blindside hits caused many concussions and NHL wanted to cut the goons away.

That's the PR answer, but at best... it's 'probably' only reason #3.

What tops the list IMO is the bad press and lawsuits, they could give a s**t about player health.

The other reason is public perception. None of the new hipsters middle class are going to put their kids in a sport where there's fighting. Living up north, it can be polarizing when you understand the reality, but I no longer reside there. I live in the dirty south (outside NOLA), and the kind of people that have money enough to get their kids involved are totally against the idea. Hell, most think football is safer because of the PR efforts to fight the reality.

I grew up in Michigan, love hockey, and wish fighting still had a place. When I played, I knew I couldn't take dirty runs at dudes... because I was 5'8", and not built like Tie Domi. The threat of being beaten severely and needing to turtle to save my 'actual face', all in front of teammates and friends, made me stay away from that sort of BS.

In the last two decades, I've coached some peewee/midget travel hockey during my southern military sponsored travels, and it's made me wish that fighting weren't so negatively stigmatized. As a victim of TBI, I fully respect the medical aspect, but there's a give and take in terms of dirty hits that cause the same.

 

[Mlotek]

Pretty sure regular clean hits are the #1 source of concussions in the NHL. Direct impact to head is not necessary to suffer a concussion.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Pretty sure regular clean hits are the #1 source of concussions in the NHL. Direct impact to head is not necessary to suffer a concussion.

Agreed.

But if you're trying to reduce concussions in the game, not letting guys punch each other in the head seems like a positive step in that direction.

(as noted in my earlier post, I have mixed feelings about fighting in hockey these days)

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

If you have time, “Ice Guardians” is a great documentary on Netflix. It tackles this whole issue really well and seems to side with keeping enforcers in the game. Joe Kocur, Dave Schultz, Brett Hull, Chris Chelios, Kelly Chase, Wendel Clark, along with some doctors, and other experts all make appearances and give opinions. It’s definitely worth watching.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

I assume it has something to do with fans itching to see their prospects get fairly regular NHL action, and the Tootoo's, Ott's, Witkowski's, etc of the NHL are viewed as the sacrificial pawns.

 

[PullHard]

Because that type of play has lead to players being brain damaged and killing themselves.

 

[kliq]

I assume it has something to do with fans itching to see their prospects get fairly regular NHL action, and the Tootoo's, Ott's, Witkowski's, etc of the NHL are viewed as the sacrificial pawns.

That's a very good point. When I think back to the 90's, I had no clue who the top prospects in the minors were. Maybe a few if they were talked about on the broadcast, but for the most part I was clueless to "the kids", and when I think of what was talked about in school, nobody else really did either. Its completely different now.

If this was 1994, and our team had the same roster, I'm sure everyone would know Zadina, but I dont think anyone would know (prior to their call-ups) guys like Hicketts, Svech, Turgeon, etc.

 

[Shaman464]

The enforcer hit its heyday when the league was centered around teams built on insane offense from a few players on each team. The reaction was to use brutes to counter them, and then other teams got brutes to defend their stars. The league has changed since then, with better training, better defensemen, and more team oriented offensive game plans, carrying a guy whose job is to be a pro-wrestler on skates becomes a detriment. They have gone the way of no helmets, wood sticks, and Ken Holland, all relics of the past.