OT: Can I ask? Why is there no love for brutes anymore? Probert? McCarty?

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
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It's true. All you've done is consider the ever growing mountain of evidence that CTE fosters crippling depression, subsequent drug use, and personality changes.

It takes real effort to ignore all that.

I dont disagree that CTE can cause all that, I just really havent seen proof that hockey fighters are at a way higher risk because the concussion numbers are so low from fighting. Hes not using the ever growing mountain of evidence that CTE causes issues, hes using some deaths and suicides that werent likely caused by fighting as evidence which is just anecdotal crap.

You think Proberts drug use was due to CTE? Read his book, do you think he had CTE at 14 when he started boozing? Or did he have a risk taker personality that likely led to him liking fighting and drug use?

Why arent we seeing more NFL players kill themselves if its the CTE thats the cause? How many boxers kill themselves? Like I said, a lot of these guys have very diferent personalities and demons rheyre dealing with to want to fight for a living. Its a lazy argument to put these guys killing themselves on fighting when they have so much shit going on.
 

One Blurred Eye

Prefer the future.
Sep 27, 2014
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I dont disagree that CTE can cause all that, I just really havent seen proof that hockey fighters are at a way higher risk because the concussion numbers are so low from fighting. Hes not using the ever growing mountain of evidence that CTE causes issues, hes using some deaths and suicides that werent likely caused by fighting as evidence which is just anecdotal crap.

You think Proberts drug use was due to CTE? Read his book, do you think he had CTE at 14 when he started boozing? Or did he have a risk taker personality that likely led to him liking fighting and drug use?

Why arent we seeing more NFL players kill themselves if its the CTE thats the cause? How many boxers kill themselves? Like I said, a lot of these guys have very diferent personalities and demons rheyre dealing with to want to fight for a living. Its a lazy argument to put these guys killing themselves on fighting when they have so much **** going on.

Similarly we can't just assume troubled athletes who played youth contact sports, organized or otherwise, hadn't already suffered repeated head trauma which precipitated their various "demons," and increased their risk factor for engaging in compounding self-destructive behaviors, including alcoholism, drug-abuse and subjecting themselves to further damage by fighting repeatedly. Concussions aren't reserved for professional athletes, after all, or even adults. Their effects on the ability of kids to make healthy, responsible decisions, a struggle for even healthy children, I would imagine are that much more severe, too. Lack of evidence for causality in one direction isn't evidence for causality in the other.

It's a bit of a cheat to limit the scope to intentional suicide too, when "killing themselves" can be more honestly interpreted in the context of the discussion as engaging in any number of unhealthy or anti-social behaviors that lead people to early demise, intentional or accidental, or rapidly diminishing the quality of their lives, landing them in prison, etc.. To your question of suicide rates in particular, though, it could be that a majority of professional athletes who last in their sports long enough to accumulate severe brain damage also wind up with better support structures (coaches, agents/business managers, fellow players, possibly stronger or more closely-knit nuclear families, access to health care etc.) in place than the average person has at their disposal, that help offset the elevated risk of suicide, normalizing what might otherwise be higher rates. Not to say that's necessarily the case, only to point out that it need be examined and controlled for. Also, along those lines, some study I saw indicated a small but significant number of boxers (ten or thereabouts) die in the ring or shortly after a fight every year, which selects them out of the group who might later have attempted or succeeded suicide as a consequence of their brain damage, had they survived the immediate injury that caused their sudden death, which need also accounting for in the discussion. We can't at this time dismiss fighting-induced brain trauma as incitement to suicide without first factoring out elements that might be disguising its effect on a particular population anymore than we can link fighting to suicide without factoring out preexisting psychological or emotional problems, or other issues on that same population. So while we can't draw a direct link between a very particular A and a very particular B (maybe we never will), it's not like any of the data collected so far has done much to alleviate the growing suspicions either. Boxers in general exhibit significantly worse CTE than other professional athletes, which seems to at least convey that getting punched in the face isn't improving hockey pugilists' odds of avoiding brain trauma and whatever effects that has down the road for them. Certainly at this point it seems folly to insolently insist on proceeding from the negative assumption, that fighting in hockey is innocent until proven guilty. The suspicions alone should be more than enough for any reasonable enthusiast of the sport to reweigh priorities and demand the more brutal aspects of it meet some significantly higher threshold for inclusion than we've previously held them to. What reasonable justification can be put forth here to not start from the safer assumption, that letting these guys play russian roulette with each others' fists is stupid, unnecessary and unhealthy, for the players, and for the viability of the game itself?
 

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,771
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Similarly we can't just assume troubled athletes who played youth contact sports, organized or otherwise, hadn't already suffered repeated head trauma which precipitated their various "demons," and increased their risk factor for engaging in compounding self-destructive behaviors, including alcoholism, drug-abuse and subjecting themselves to further damage by fighting repeatedly. Concussions aren't reserved for professional athletes, after all, or even adults. Their effects on the ability of kids to make healthy, responsible decisions, a struggle for even healthy children, I would imagine are that much more severe, too. Lack of evidence for causality in one direction isn't evidence for causality in the other.

It's a bit of a cheat to limit the scope to intentional suicide too, when "killing themselves" can be more honestly interpreted in the context of the discussion as engaging in any number of unhealthy or anti-social behaviors that lead people to early demise, intentional or accidental, or rapidly diminishing the quality of their lives, landing them in prison, etc.. To your question of suicide rates in particular, though, it could be that a majority of professional athletes who last in their sports long enough to accumulate severe brain damage also wind up with better support structures (coaches, agents/business managers, fellow players, possibly stronger or more closely-knit nuclear families, access to health care etc.) in place than the average person has at their disposal, that help offset the elevated risk of suicide, normalizing what might otherwise be higher rates. Not to say that's necessarily the case, only to point out that it need be examined and controlled for. Also, along those lines, some study I saw indicated a small but significant number of boxers (ten or thereabouts) die in the ring or shortly after a fight every year, which selects them out of the group who might later have attempted or succeeded suicide as a consequence of their brain damage, had they survived the immediate injury that caused their sudden death, which need also accounting for in the discussion. We can't at this time dismiss fighting-induced brain trauma as incitement to suicide without first factoring out elements that might be disguising its effect on a particular population anymore than we can link fighting to suicide without factoring out preexisting psychological or emotional problems, or other issues on that same population. So while we can't draw a direct link between a very particular A and a very particular B (maybe we never will), it's not like any of the data collected so far has done much to alleviate the growing suspicions either. Boxers in general exhibit significantly worse CTE than other professional athletes, which seems to at least convey that getting punched in the face isn't improving hockey pugilists' odds of avoiding brain trauma and whatever effects that has down the road for them. Certainly at this point it seems folly to insolently insist on proceeding from the negative assumption, that fighting in hockey is innocent until proven guilty. The suspicions alone should be more than enough for any reasonable enthusiast of the sport to reweigh priorities and demand the more brutal aspects of it meet some significantly higher threshold for inclusion than we've previously held them to. What reasonable justification can be put forth here to not start from the safer assumption, that letting these guys play russian roulette with each others' fists is stupid, unnecessary and unhealthy, for the players, and for the viability of the game itself?

Probert started drinking at 14, at that age and his size (he was a man child) I'm going to say it wasnt head trauma that led him to that point in his life. He wasnt fighting at that age (if I remember correctly) and I doubt anyone was hitting him in the head because he was so big. He was a lifestyle guy.

I also dont buy that NFL players have better support systems at all. I would in fact argue tat the NHL has 10 times the support system of football with much worse head trauma, and yet we dont see much suicide out of that group of people. Even though the numbers are WAY higher for an NFL team plus practice squad compared to an NHL roster.

I'm not saying CTE isnt a horrible health factor, I'm saying that saying "People who fight kill themselves because of the brain trauma from fighting" is a ridiculous statement to make at this time when NFL players and boxers suffer much more CTE but seem to have lower suicide rates than NHL enforcers.

I'm not saying guys should be fighting 30 times a year anymore at all, but enforcers are basically completely out of the game and I think its pretty good fighting wise where it is and doesnt need much change at this point.

As for you saying the viability of the game itself, viewshership seems to be pretty far down on the NHL lately so I'm not sure removing the rough stuff is making the game more viable at all. It needed to be tweaked, and the removal of enforcers did just that. Fighting in the NHL is pretty good and the information is out there for these guys to decide themselves if they want to risk their health to fight or not
 

Bench

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Aug 14, 2011
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It's a bit of a cheat to limit the scope to intentional suicide too, when "killing themselves" can be more honestly interpreted in the context of the discussion as engaging in any number of unhealthy or anti-social behaviors that lead people to early demise, intentional or accidental, or rapidly diminishing the quality of their lives, landing them in prison, etc..

Great post. And true, if you only focus on those that kill themselves deliberately, it's nothing to worry about statistically. Of course, that ignores quality of life and the fact CTE is being found in over 95% of former NFL players brains that have been studied. This is a timely discussion, because the latest settlement total just hit for the NFL concussion case. The NFL has paid out $500 million in settlement money in less than 2 years (estimated to be$1.4 billion in totality), and it's not because they are generous with their money.

And fighting is only a fraction of the puzzle, for what it's worth. It's the repeated, lower impact hits that seem to be the issue, rather than memorable large impacts. Linemen in the NFL, those with repeated impacts, are far more at risk than skill positions (and this data actually correlates to the suicide numbers, since we are talking about those). By the time a child is through a youth contact sport, the seeds for increased risk of serious concussions may already be underway. Rapidly developing brains in pre-teens are particularly susceptible. If you want to take it further, the brain doesn't fully mature until around 25.

This isn't to say outlawing contact sports is the answer. I feel the need to say this, even though it seems obvious, because I'm a big NFL and NHL fan. People can consent to do things that are bad for them. But when you have a mostly meaningless part of a sport, like fighting, and you know it's bad for the health of your players... well, that's a really easy thing to fix, isn't it? There will always be clean hits that go wrong. There will always be accidental impact. There will always be players that behave poorly and injure someone. Those are the risks of a high speed impact sport. Fighting, though, is independent of that. It's a holdover from when hockey players used to hold jobs as farmers in the off-season. An undeniable part of the history, but dated, especially with what we know now.

Modern NHL "tough guys" need to be able to move bodies from scoring areas. Win puck battles in corners. Use their body to separate players from the puck. These are all highly physical tools that work within the rules and the high skill game that hockey is today. It's not good enough anymore to be a player with an AHL skill set but who is willing to drop gloves and compromise ice position for a big hit. Some might lament this change, these players were fun to root for, but I think it's brought about a higher quality product with some of the most entertaining and skilled players we've ever seen.

As fans, I think we have an obligation to let the league know we support protecting their health where possible. And that's why the big Colorado/Detroit brawl is one of my greatest hockey memories, top 5 easy, but I also think that brand of NHL is part of the past. I'm happy we don't celebrate Scott Stevens destroying Eric Lindros' career these days. Back then, that was the kind of thing they made VHS tapes of. That was fun when I was a kid, but I'm happy that's not a thing anymore.
 
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One Blurred Eye

Prefer the future.
Sep 27, 2014
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Probert started drinking at 14, at that age and his size (he was a man child) I'm going to say it wasnt head trauma that led him to that point in his life. He wasnt fighting at that age (if I remember correctly) and I doubt anyone was hitting him in the head because he was so big. He was a lifestyle guy.

I also dont buy that NFL players have better support systems at all. I would in fact argue tat the NHL has 10 times the support system of football with much worse head trauma, and yet we dont see much suicide out of that group of people. Even though the numbers are WAY higher for an NFL team plus practice squad compared to an NHL roster.

I'm not saying CTE isnt a horrible health factor, I'm saying that saying "People who fight kill themselves because of the brain trauma from fighting" is a ridiculous statement to make at this time when NFL players and boxers suffer much more CTE but seem to have lower suicide rates than NHL enforcers.

I'm not saying guys should be fighting 30 times a year anymore at all, but enforcers are basically completely out of the game and I think its pretty good fighting wise where it is and doesnt need much change at this point.

As for you saying the viability of the game itself, viewshership seems to be pretty far down on the NHL lately so I'm not sure removing the rough stuff is making the game more viable at all. It needed to be tweaked, and the removal of enforcers did just that. Fighting in the NHL is pretty good and the information is out there for these guys to decide themselves if they want to risk their health to fight or not

I get what you're saying, it's all fair concern, my tldr here is just that your gut feelings about anecdotal data aren't anymore verified than those you're criticizing. We'll probably never know the pre-existing state of Probert's or any other player's brain before they took their first punch or their first drink, and for a lot of these guys we never will. So while you're right to point out the direct link hasn't been made, it's not exactly sturdy ground from which to handwave away the possibility of it's contributing to their demise either. The data sets we have about CTE and suicide from which to construct our argumentative narratives at the moment are really limited and raw. You're welcome to be skeptical of potential factors that might offset elevated suicide rates among pro athletes, but NFL players, NHL players and professional boxers aren't a satisfactorily random population, they have numerous commonalities among them, a major one being that a lot of them have individuals surrounding them whose five, six and seven-figure livelihoods depend on the player's continued ability to breathe and sign paychecks. That's major incentive to stage interventions sooner and more often than the norm. There are economic, racial and national dynamics involved. The possibilities of these influences exist, so have to be controlled for. For me, until someone digs deep into that data to filter those potentially biasing factors out, it seems safer and more humanistic to just start with the assumption that getting clocked repeatedly puts people at a higher risk of suicide, and work to disprove it as opposed to the opposite.

Point taken regarding viewership and the current niche presence fighting in the game today. But it's not just about offering more informed choice to current and future players, but what is owed to the players of the past and their families who didn't have access to information or care that current players have, and the potential PR nightmare should the league start losing lawsuit after lawsuit in their attempt to defensively litigate the matter under the rug. The league still struggles to gain the slightest positive traction in the mainstream as it is. Waiting out on the clock on the science to absolve the league of responsibility seems too risky for a somewhat imperiled niche sport in the face of a turning wider public tide regarding violence in sports on the whole. It's time the league owns the possibility, and treat it as a likelihood that fighting made things worse, and make a reasonably generous offer to put the issue to rest in a way that might engender some goodwill for the league going forward beyond maintaining the status quo. Stubbornly clinging to the ambiguity of the current data to skirt the institutional complicity just seems bad business at this point, even if in a purely logical and legal vacuum it's their right to do so.
 
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