OT: Can I ask? Why is there no love for brutes anymore? Probert? McCarty?

[Grimm]

I've been a long, longtime viewer of this site and board. I finally joined. And I must say, it really makes me sick all the comments I've seen over the years about Tootoo, Ott, Witkowski. I'm asking all Red Wings fans. WHY the hate?

Tootoo was a great redemption story. He had personal demons, he was NOT a big guy, but he loved putting it all on the line. Ott was obviously a guy who couldn't fight well. But my god did he love to do it to get the boys and the fans going. Witkowski is a Michigan kid living out his dream. I know him from some sports related events and he's a great person who loves doing what it takes to help the team, whether that's a fight or sitting in the press box. Literally anything to live the dream being in the NHL.

Do we all not remember the guys like Kocur, Probert, McCarty. Let's add Shanny, Downey, hell even Pushor to the list. Those guys were a part of historic seasons (Pushor with the first scrap of Bloody Wednesday, Downey with his name on the cup and the beating of Laperriere). The Avs/Wings. More recently, the Bolts/Ducks vs. the Wings. Hell, even the Stars and Blues, we had plenty of moments.

I know the game has changed. So be it. I'm not asking you to say I'd prefer a Turgeon over Witkowski. I just want to clear the air that I don't like hearing the comments calling these guys plugs or saying they deserved to be waived. They are the ones who want to entertain us. They wear THE wheel. They want to stick up for their mates. They do anything it takes, if that means being punched in the face. They do it for us. Just like the names above. Let's show some love Wings fans.

P.S. - This was thought about watching videos of Ott fight Orpik, Wings/Calgary, and Mantha/McKegg. Orpik is a weasel but he's a bull, Ott waves the crowd on as he's getting hit. Mantha sees Larkin go face first into the boards, his teammate of only one year. Witkowski versus Calgary? I don't need to say much!

Click to read more...

 

[newfy]

I love watching Witkowski play. If the team is going to suck I think the wings might as well have a guy like him. I like that he plays forward and D and actually think hes not as bad of a player as people let on either. Are you going to find a better 7th D? Maybe, but they wont be much better and they wont be tough. They also likely cant hold down a forward spot in a pinch either

 

[Grimm]

I love watching Witkowski play. If the team is going to suck I think the wings might as well have a guy like him. I like that he plays forward and D and actually think hes not as bad of a player as people let on either. Are you going to find a better 7th D? Maybe, but they wont be much better and they wont be tough. They also likely cant hold down a forward spot in a pinch either

Thanks for the swift response. My point exactly. He's equally as "good" or "bad" as a guy like Sprout or maybe even Russo in his own end. So why not have a guy who will get the butts in the seats along with a guy who will go at anybody in the league you want?

It's disheartening hearing the negative things said about guys like this. They are willing to get hit in the face for our beloved Winged Wheel but a lot of new age fans want to call them plugs. It's a shame. Thanks! I'm glad someone sees what I see

 

[ricky0034]

if someone like Witkowski isn't a "plug" then who is?

fighting is more useless than ever for winning hockey games(and it was never terribly useful to begin with)

 

[Grimm]

if someone like Witkowski isn't a "plug" then who is?

fighting is more useless than ever for winning hockey games(and it was never terribly useful to begin with)

This thread isn't about who is or isn't a plug. Or how relevant fighting is or isn't. It's about respecting the guys who are willing to do it to wear the Winged Wheel. And fans like you call them plugs...

I take that as a sign of disrespect and it actually bothers me. Hence the thread....

 

[Bondurant]

I'm flying to Grand Rapids tomorrow afternoon and staying in Grand Haven. Not too far from Witkowski's hometown (Holland). He's one of my current favorite Wings. Made the trip home to MI back in December as well. Went to a home game against Florida. Witkowski dropped the gloves twice.

 

[BinCookin]

I think witkowski's team mates fully appreciate his presence. Say what you will about the role for "big body" guys on the team. Witkowski and guys like him are always appreciated by me as a fan.

I have never thought complaining about your 4th line leads you in a positive direction.

If our team has problems (cant win)... it will be the top 6 players that are not dominating... Not the bottom 3 who cant chip in.

Its hard to find skilled big body guys like McCarty anymore, of course i think McCarty made the NHL as having offensive prowess, not a face puncher.

 

[Henkka]

Concussion protocol is the biggest factor. Fighting as well as blindside hits caused many concussions and NHL wanted to cut the goons away.

 

[RedMenace]

I'll agree with you, Grimm. I'm not a huge proponent of fighting, but I love seeing the muckers go out there and lay people out with (mostly) clean hits and stick up for their teammates. Witkowski is currently one of my favorite Wings; Ott and Tootoo were as well when they were here.

And on the off chance they happen to score a goal, it's that much more rewarding as a fan.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I've been a long, longtime viewer of this site and board. I finally joined. And I must say, it really makes me sick all the comments I've seen over the years about Tootoo, Ott, Witkowski. I'm asking all Red Wings fans. WHY the hate?

Tootoo was a great redemption story. He had personal demons, he was NOT a big guy, but he loved putting it all on the line. Ott was obviously a guy who couldn't fight well. But my god did he love to do it to get the boys and the fans going. Witkowski is a Michigan kid living out his dream. I know him from some sports related events and he's a great person who loves doing what it takes to help the team, whether that's a fight or sitting in the press box. Literally anything to live the dream being in the NHL.

Do we all not remember the guys like Kocur, Probert, McCarty. Let's add Shanny, Downey, hell even Pushor to the list. Those guys were a part of historic seasons (Pushor with the first scrap of Bloody Wednesday, Downey with his name on the cup and the beating of Laperriere). The Avs/Wings. More recently, the Bolts/Ducks vs. the Wings. Hell, even the Stars and Blues, we had plenty of moments.

I know the game has changed. So be it. I'm not asking you to say I'd prefer a Turgeon over Witkowski. I just want to clear the air that I don't like hearing the comments calling these guys plugs or saying they deserved to be waived. They are the ones who want to entertain us. They wear THE wheel. They want to stick up for their mates. They do anything it takes, if that means being punched in the face. They do it for us. Just like the names above. Let's show some love Wings fans.

P.S. - This was thought about watching videos of Ott fight Orpik, Wings/Calgary, and Mantha/McKegg. Orpik is a weasel but he's a bull, Ott waves the crowd on as he's getting hit. Mantha sees Larkin go face first into the boards, his teammate of only one year. Witkowski versus Calgary? I don't need to say much!

The reason why people think about this is for the majority of the game, a guy like Jordin Tootoo is just a bad hockey player. When he wasn't trying to agitate, he was a subpar forward. When Witkowski isn't trying to drop the gloves, he is an AHL level forward/defender. Whereas the old timers you credit and bemoan that the new guys don't get the same love were actually fantastic hockey players or failing that were real plusses in the fighting arena.

Probie was one of, if not, the best enforcers in league history. He was also a bona-fide top 6 forward who would ride on young Yzerman's line and produce. Brendan Shanahan was quite literally a Hall of Famer with 600+ goals. Darren McCarty was part of the Grind Line who were one of the best fourth lines in history and who Scotty Bowman would start games with and use about 12-15 minutes a night on a roster that had a line with Shanahan-Yzerman-x and the Russian Five on it.

And in the salary cap era, you need to focus on what is most important to have on a roster. And while a physical element is needed, the specific guy is not important because so many NHL guys have it. It's why people flip their lid about a Matt Martin 4 year 2.5M deal or LGD's 4 year 1.8M. Those guys at the bottom of your roster are eminently replaceable so giving them term doesn't make sense. So when people say "plug", that's what they mean.

 

[lilidk]

Today's hockey remind me old Soviet . Good speed, passes puck possession but not much physicality. I actually like blend , mix those things.

 

[waltdetroit]

Here in DC, Tom Wilson is a fan favorite (except for the head hits). Heavy hitter who did score some this year. I think it takes time to develop this kind of player but not as long as a defenseman. I don't like the instant retaliation for good hits & would rather see payback later in the game. The hip check is hardly used anymore but IMO should be. You need the physical presence (fighting) to keep things honest and avoid cheap shots at your best players. Intimidation has always been a factor. But in all honestly, fighting is less & less a factor as time has gone on.

 

[njx9]

Guys like Witkowski are non-additive, AHL-caliber hockey players. They're the very definition of plugs. I'd prefer we have guys like original-Kronwall, who will lay someone out, but can also play actual hockey the rest of the game. There's a vast, vast difference between a guy like Witkowski and Probert or McCarty.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'll agree with you, Grimm. I'm not a huge proponent of fighting, but I love seeing the muckers go out there and lay people out with (mostly) clean hits and stick up for their teammates. Witkowski is currently one of my favorite Wings; Ott and Tootoo were as well when they were here.

And on the off chance they happen to score a goal, it's that much more rewarding as a fan.

When you are saying things like "on the off chance that they actually trip over themselves and do something that actually helps you win a hockey game", I think that tells you something.

Think about it this way... the guys like Tootoo, Pushor, Downey, etc.... their play is like an eclair. I really like eclairs. They're pretty damn tasty. But within 30 minutes of eating an eclair, you're still going to be pretty hungry and it gives you nothing in the way of nutrients. It'll give you a rush, but once the rush is over, you've got nothing. Agitators who can't play hockey are basically empty calories. Whereas you have a guy like Zetterberg or Lidstrom who at the top of their abilities could control what happened on the ice. That would be like a steak dinner. That you can gussy it up to be as fancy as you want, but once they've played their 20 minutes a night or more, you can see "man, Zetterberg really was awesome today." And that's why people loved watching the Wings for so long and it was appointment TV in the late 90s early 2000s. You had a team that was almost a damn sure bet to win any game they played. And when you have something like Datsyuk drop the gloves against Corey Perry, it's WAY cooler than seeing Luke Witkowski throw with irrelevant fourth liner from Calgary.

I like seeing guys who can lay out hits and play physical that are actually skilled hockey players too. Scott Stevens, Niedermayer, Vladdy. Or to see defensemen that could just control the game with subtle stick lifts and rocket slapshots (Lidstrom, Zubov, Rafalski)

 

[Richard Moistmaker]

Always loved having Aaron Downey on the team. He was one tough dude!

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Always loved having Aaron Downey on the team. He was one tough dude!

Oh, I mean, I liked Downey. I liked Grimson. I liked *insert tough guy* here.

But they're all eminently replaceable. As a hockey player being willing to take/throw a punch to the face is actually a pretty common skill. Aaron Downey was fun, but a dude who can fight, especially as the league is drifting away from it, is a novelty act more than the main event.

 

[izlez]

I've never been a fan of fighting, and I do think the new info on concussions is a part of it...

But Probert and McCarty were drafted by the Red Wings and were in the organization a long time. They put up 30-40-50 points a year (albeit in a different era) while being tough guys. Witkowski came in as a free agent last year, has played 31 games in the winged wheel, and had 4 points. That's why he doesn't get the respect/love/admiration of those 2.

I'm sure if we could come up with an apples to apples comparison of a player being drafted and producing offense while fighting, fans would love a tough guy. Signing a free agent to fight and get a handful of points over the course of a season isn't gonna do it.

 

[jkutswings]

Physicality in general is a plus. But if a player can't bring anything else to the table, it's generally an insufficient plus to maintain a roster spot.

 

[82Ninety42011]

The instigator rule literally got rid of the tough guy. Sadly now we see players taking a lot more liberties with the stick knowing nobody will do anything about it. For those that say fighting has no place in game how come when there is a fight whole stadiums are on feet watching??

 

[TatarTangle]

Why? The game is rapidly trending into a non-contact league. Even a clean hit is met with a stoppage of play because someone has to "stick up" for his teammate.

Or, you know, he could keep his head up

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The instigator rule literally got rid of the tough guy. Sadly now we see players taking a lot more liberties with the stick knowing nobody will do anything about it. For those that say fighting has no place in game how come when there is a fight whole stadiums are on feet watching??

Because it is entertaining at the time, but at its core is a novelty? Does gladitorial combat where slaves and criminals fight against lions have a place in society? I mean, people in stadiums were on their feet watching.

 

[ShelbyZ]

The instigator rule literally got rid of the tough guy.

I don't know if you could say "literally", but it was more like the first nail in the coffin. There were still a lot of tough guys and enforcers around for close to 20 years following the introduction of the instigator but there have been more nails driven in since then:

- Roster size/use: As the league settled into the 23 man roster and more teams started to try to gear more toward having 4 forward lines and 3 D pairings that could play in most situations, teams started carrying less tough guys. We from 20 years ago where most teams had anywhere from 2-3 dedicated enforcer type guys, to 1-2 after the lost season and now barely any teams have 1.

-Helmet/visor rules: This is probably one of the bigger "literal" factors. Players can no longer remove their helmet prior to a fight, and all new players entering the league are required to use the half shield and can't skirt it by having it installed Kronwall style. I'm sure a lot of guys aren't thrilled about opening their hand on the visor.

-It's being severely limited at lower levels: We've gone from junior teams specifically targeting bigger than average barely teenage kids for the sole purpose of fighting, to now having NCAA, QMJHL, OHL and lower leagues severely limiting fighting, including automatic suspensions right after a fight or for reaching a certain number of fights per season.

-Narrative: Three guys that were notorious for fighting in the NHL die suddenly in one offseason and even though each unfortunate death had different factors and circumstances outside of fighting, it was fighting that took the blame.

It's also the perfect scapegoat for concussions. For better or worse, the league continues to focus on morphing into a fast, wide open, hard shooting, "Mighty Ducks movie"-like never ending highlight reel to attract more casual fans. This will inevitably lead to harder intentional and unintentional collisions that could cause concussions. However, the league is happy to let fighting and the players that partake in it get most of the heat in concussion/CTE related discussions.

 

[muchbetterthanlada]

Brutes get too much credit. The FSD love fest for Steve Ott was outrageous..

 

[PelagicJoe]

The league was different back then. The enforcer types were there to protect the star players on the team. Bob Probert could actually play hockey, unlike most of the goons of the time. I do miss the era of the designated tough guy. It isn't coming back though, especially with all the knowledge we have now about concussions and brain damage.

I read somewhere that Probert's body was donated to science. Someone did a scan of his brain compared to a person who didn't take a bunch of punches to the face. There were clear signs of physical damage.

 

[Tomas W]

Physicality in general is a plus. But if a player can't bring anything else to the table, it's generally an insufficient plus to maintain a roster spot.

Physicality is a plus, almost necessary for a defensive player. While it might be bad for hockeyplayers health to have brutal players in the NHL, its good for the team defense.

Skilled player however is not meant to be sitting in the box or sitting out a suspension. So...what Im saying pick brutal players for the bottom six and soft but skilled fancy pants for the tip six.