Call out thread! 4m+/year and a no trade clause and we traded Ladd???!!!!

[golfpro827]

Nooooooo.

It was Cullen-Staal-Recchi, Stillman-Brind'amour-Williams and Whitney-Weight-Ladd for the most part in the playoffs. I honestly can't recall them using those lines you listed even once, outside of the fourth. Ladd played 9 minutes a game in the playoffs.

And Ladd did the vast majority of his time here on the 3rd and 4th lines. He averaged ~11 minutes a game in each of his first three seasons. That's not top six ice time.

Wow, I was almost sure that was the case.

And then I looked and hit it right on the head.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=5671950

My apologies.

Still, not the bottom line as stated.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

ladd was also playing some of the best hockey of his career (to that point) just prior to the ruutu trade

wasn't a huge fan of it then, either

 

[golfpro827]

Honestly the real complaint I have with JR is his drafting.

While Staal was a pretty easy pick and he has a few gems like Skinner and Faulk thrown in there, for the most part, his first two round picks have not been good / are no longer with us.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Honestly the real complaint I have with JR is his drafting.

While Staal was a pretty easy pick and he has a few gems like Skinner and Faulk thrown in there, for the most part, his first two round picks have not been good / are no longer with us.

While saying they are no longer with us is definitely valid, I disagree that his drafting has been that bad.

02: Cam Ward, no 2nd round pick
03: Eric Staal, Danny Richmond
04: Andrew Ladd, Justin Peters (not a bad pick when look at that draft)
05: Jack Johnson, Nate Hagemo
06: No 1st, Jamie McBain (end of 2nd round)
07: Brandon Sutter, no 2nd round pick
08: Boychuk, Dalpe
09: Paradis, Dumoulin
10: Skinner, Faulk, Alt.
11: Murphy, Rask
12: No 1st, Di Guiseppe
13: Lindholm, no 2nd

So in 12 drafts (20 picks), I'd say there are 5 picks that were bad picks (in bold), some ok picks, some very good picks, and some where the jury is still out. I bet if you did the same analysis for another team that typically finishes where the Canes do, you'd get a similar result.

Now I do agree that the Canes have parted ways with some of these guys too early, but that's a different issue than drafting.

 

[bluedevil58*]

My apologies guys. I watch these games and do some heavy drinking in the process. Come 2nd intermission I am pretty much lit and feel as though I need to speak my mind since my fiance' has no clue about hockey. I don't make these posts to start controversy or dick swinging contests.

It;s obvious Ruutu did nit prepare himself this off season. Yes, he was injured and did just have a major surgery but still.... I am not sure what to think. This is supposed to be our power forward. He is just not showing much right now. Last night was one of the best games that we have played this season. We showed a lot of heart and were firing on all cylinders. Except for Ruutu.

 

[Joe McGrath]

While saying they are no longer with us is definitely valid, I disagree that his drafting has been that bad.

02: Cam Ward, no 2nd round pick
03: Eric Staal, Danny Richmond
04: Andrew Ladd, Justin Peters (not a bad pick when look at that draft)
05: Jack Johnson, Nate Hagemo
06: No 1st, Jamie McBain (end of 2nd round)
07: Brandon Sutter, no 2nd round pick
08: Boychuk, Dalpe
09: Paradis, Dumoulin
10: Skinner, Faulk, Alt.
11: Murphy, Rask
12: No 1st, Di Guiseppe
13: Lindholm, no 2nd

So in 12 drafts (20 picks), I'd say there are 5 picks that were bad picks (in bold), some ok picks, some very good picks, and some where the jury is still out. I bet if you did the same analysis for another team that typically finishes where the Canes do, you'd get a similar result.

Now I do agree that the Canes have parted ways with some of these guys too early, but that's a different issue than drafting.

The '08 draft and the complete inability to get anything out of 3rd round picks and beyond are the biggest issue. The moves JR made this offseason can't really be questioned since he brought in defenseman that have improved the PK and 5 on 5 defense and signed their current leading goal scorer for 550k.

It's all moot anyway since JR will eventually step down, cede the GM role to Francis and little will change. Except that I'm going to frequently get pissed off at my childhood hero for being a below average GM this further weakening my already fragile mental state.

 

[geehaad]

Wow, I was almost sure that was the case.

And then I looked and hit it right on the head.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=5671950

My apologies.

Still, not the bottom line as stated.

That was 2006, not 2008, when he was traded. He was playing with newly-arrived Samsonov when he was traded, and had 10 points in his previous 11 games. He was nowhere near the 4th line.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The '08 draft and the complete inability to get anything out of 3rd round picks and beyond are the biggest issue.

I wonder how much of our poor depth-drafting can be chalked up to a lack of investment in scouting.

 

[dogbazinho]

And worst of all Ladd was drafted in our building! Led the team in hits a few nights in the SC run. Actually screened the goalie which was a novel concept at the time for our team. Complete crap trade.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The '08 draft and the complete inability to get anything out of 3rd round picks and beyond are the biggest issue.

IIRC, Boychuk was picked right about where all the guru's had him predicted to go, but swinging and missing for a whole draft sure hurts, particularly when you only had a couple of 1st/2nd round picks in the previous two drafts (due to the Weight and Recchi deals). Not complaining about the Weight/Recchi deals as those brought the cup, but for 3 straight years, the Canes got very little out of the draft.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

hagemo wasn't a terrible pick, really... he was talented, just had a lot of unforeseen personal issues with drugs

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

hagemo wasn't a terrible pick, really... he was talented, just had a lot of unforeseen personal issues with drugs

Agree, I was looking at it strictly based on end results. Even in Boychuk's case, he wasn't a terrible pick at the time, but didn't work out for various reasons.

 

[Elsker]

Those bemoaning the Ladd for Ruutu trade are perhaps remembering the more recent Chicago Ladd and not the Carolina Ladd.

Take a look at those Carolina years in his career record.

We just could not keep the boy healthy through a season. Plus he was the junior member of the remnants of a seasoned Cup-winning team that JR was trying to keep in some kind of similar form as various parts spun off to seek their post-Cup fortunes.

Ladd for Ruutu was a classic Future-for-Now trade to bring in the physical presence that Ladd could not at that time produce. Chicago, on the other hand, was coming off several seasons of high-draft hockey and was building for the Future, which is now Now.

Universal Excuse: It seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471217&view=log&season=20072008

game log for the season ladd was traded

he was playing his best hockey here and earning more ice time as a result just prior to the trade. "chicago ladd" and "carolina ladd" are the same player. he was developing here just fine.

 

[What the Faulk]

And worst of all Ladd was drafted in our building!

So was Justin Peters. Maybe that's why he's been around as long as he has.

At the time, the Ladd for Ruutu deal looked pretty even. Ruutu even had some pretty productive years here, and stayed healthy. But things change. Ruutu is broken and Ladd developed farther than man ever would have predicted. Still, it's hard to be mad about this trade without the benefit of hindsight.

I don't even mind holding onto him at the deadline a few years ago. If they dealt him, they would have had to find a way to replace him in the top 6. Again, without the benefit of hindsight, didn't look to be an easy task. But it's hard to say he was worth what he was signed for. If it was 9m or even 10m over 2, I think more people would be OK with it. But he's clearly deteriorated and isn't the same player. That HAS to be a factor when negotiating long term deals, especially those with NMCs. That's where JR went wrong with Ruutu.

I don't think he's a bad trading GM. Rarely does he get completely ripped, and even then, not nearly as much as most GMs. I keep referring back to the full list of trades that someone posted last year. It's hard to find one to be truly pissed about.

His drafting is absolutely terrible, though. Even when he bails himself out for poor picks, the late rounders have not panned out whatsoever. Bellemore and Bowman are the only players on the team drafted after R2, and Bellemore took forever to get to Carolina. The lack of talent from later rounds is what separates a team like the Hurricanes from the Red Wings. And it's been under multiple scouting directors.

The buck stops at JR. The cap keeps going up, but how much longer can the Canes afford to play to it? They've got more money coming in, sure, but there's going to be a limit. They need cheap, home grown players on ELCs. They should have had one ready to step in for Ruutu, but no one was ready or even the same kind of player. Maybe McGinn and Woods and the new generation will finally provide more than none, but I have my doubts. History isn't on JR's side.

 

[Elsker]

Hey, I hated the trade at the time, too. But I understood it.

Canes were (as always) hunting for another center then, as well. There was lots of talk about Ruutu's positional versatility from JR as the rationale.

Not saying I liked it. But I understood why each side thought it was a good idea. Both made about the same amount of money and were RFA. But, yeah, over time, Chicago as the Future side of that deal, naturally comes out on top.

 

[golfpro827]

While saying they are no longer with us is definitely valid, I disagree that his drafting has been that bad.

02: Cam Ward, no 2nd round pick
03: Eric Staal, Danny Richmond
04: Andrew Ladd, Justin Peters (not a bad pick when look at that draft)
05: Jack Johnson, Nate Hagemo
06: No 1st, Jamie McBain (end of 2nd round)
07: Brandon Sutter, no 2nd round pick
08: Boychuk, Dalpe
09: Paradis, Dumoulin
10: Skinner, Faulk, Alt.
11: Murphy, Rask
12: No 1st, Di Guiseppe
13: Lindholm, no 2nd

So in 12 drafts (20 picks), I'd say there are 5 picks that were bad picks (in bold), some ok picks, some very good picks, and some where the jury is still out. I bet if you did the same analysis for another team that typically finishes where the Canes do, you'd get a similar result.

Now I do agree that the Canes have parted ways with some of these guys too early, but that's a different issue than drafting.

The round is not nearly as important as the position of the pick. Sutter hasn't been a bust by any means, but at 11, a little more talent there.

The 2008 draft was killer to this team especially considering Erik Karlson and Jordan Eberle were drafted after Boychuck.

 

[Joe McGrath]

IIRC, Boychuk was picked right about where all the guru's had him predicted to go, but swinging and missing for a whole draft sure hurts, particularly when you only had a couple of 1st/2nd round picks in the previous two drafts (due to the Weight and Recchi deals). Not complaining about the Weight/Recchi deals as those brought the cup, but for 3 straight years, the Canes got very little out of the draft.

I'm not saying that drafting Boychuk was bad at the time, just pointing out that was a draft that everyone inside the organization thought was going to shore up the forward talent level for years to come and wind up providing diddly squat.

 

[golfpro827]

Honestly one of the biggest issues this team has taht is NEVER talked about was caused by Ray Whitney.

Not that Skinner / Faulk were bad (maybe our best 1-2 draft in history), but the disaster that was 2009 season lead to really not much. Riley Nash is about it.

Ray Whitney's refusal to be traded to LA and the pick we lost because of that.....and he cited he didn't want to move his family. And then signs in Phoenix. Never been more mad at any player in our history.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

Honestly one of the biggest issues this team has taht is NEVER talked about was caused by Ray Whitney.

Not that Skinner / Faulk were bad (maybe our best 1-2 draft in history), but the disaster that was 2009 season lead to really not much. Riley Nash is about it.

Ray Whitney's refusal to be traded to LA and the pick we lost because of that.....and he cited he didn't want to move his family. And then signs in Phoenix. Never been more mad at any player in our history.

JR is the one who gave out the NTC. hard to be mad at whitney for that.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The round is not nearly as important as the position of the pick. Sutter hasn't been a bust by any means, but at 11, a little more talent there.

Show me 1 GM that hasn't made similar picks in the mid (10-15) to late range? It's a bit of a crap shoot once you get beyond the first few picks in most drafts. Seriously, JR/Canes management has a LOT of flaws (giving up on guys too soon, taking on retreads, failing to address a terrible defense for years, Ruutu's contract, not getting anything after the 2nd round, etc...), but IMO, on the whole, the drafting in the first two rounds over the years hasn't been as bad as you made it out to be (which is what I was disagreeing with).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm not saying that drafting Boychuk was bad at the time, just pointing out that was a draft that everyone inside the organization thought was going to shore up the forward talent level for years to come and wind up providing diddly squat.

Yeah, didn't mean to imply that you thought it was Joe. I agree with what you said. Not getting anything out of that 08 draft left a talent hole and rarely getting anything after the 2nd round also hurts, especially when the team has historically been a budget team.

 

[golfpro827]

JR is the one who gave out the NTC. hard to be mad at whitney for that.

I understand that aspect. Still to quote the reason you don't want to be traded b/c you dont want to move your family and then sign in Phoenix...

 

[golfpro827]

Show me 1 GM that hasn't made similar picks in the mid (10-15) to late range? It's a bit of a crap shoot once you get beyond the first few picks in most drafts. Seriously, JR/Canes management has a LOT of flaws (giving up on guys too soon, taking on retreads, failing to address a terrible defense for years, Ruutu's contract, not getting anything after the 2nd round, etc...), but IMO, on the whole, the drafting in the first two rounds over the years hasn't been as bad as you made it out to be (which is what I was disagreeing with).

I certainly agree as a whole. And overall, I'm a huge JR supporter. Just stating that the drafts weren't as good as they could have been.

The issues we are in now are very much realted to the 2008 / 2009 drafts.

 

[Lazyking]

Funny, I was about to start a "time for JR to step down" thread myself after getting home from this one. It's just time, and while the guy makes some good trades and good signings when's the last time we've won a big signing, or re-signed one of his guys for appropriate value? I won't get on JR TOO much, for the signings, that's the one thing he did fairly right this offseason.

But fact of the matter is, basically since the Cup season he's screwed the pooch on his big trades. The last big one we were decidedly on the winning end of is the Weight trade. Since then? Ladd for Ruutu (huge loss), Johnson for Gleason (poor at best), and Sutter + 1st for J Staal. The Tlusty trade was a nice one, but that's the only semi-major trade we've won recently.

And with the way some of our drafts have blown up on us, either by failure in development or just simple fail level picks, I'd have a lot more faith in someone else taking over the ship for the rest of the rebuild. It's time for Francis to make the next step in his career and be our GM.

I agree with all that except for Francis. The Canes need to go outside the box, change the thinking of the way the team is run, drafts its players and such.