C/W Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Ässät, Liiga (2018, 3rd, MTL) Part II

[Burke the Legend]

Galcheyuk >> kotka

kotka skating is horrid

Brains >>>>>>>> Skating

Galchenyuk's is empty which is why he won't be much more than a 30g PP specialist despite all his natural talent & shot.

If Kotka works hard at the gym on his skating the next few years he can improve a lot, can't do much about an empty toolbox.

 

[f1nn]

More hyperbole...

If I understand you correctly, you think that a well-educated fan who watches crappy players, and players develop poorly, can scout and make as well-informed decisions about young players as a fan of good teams with great players can? I don't think so. That's not my experience.

Well that is because you are a wings fan, not a hockey fan. Hockey fans can actually enjoy watching many different teams and leagues and follow players from juniors up,, making it irrelevant how good their favorite team is. Furthermore, even if I accepted your premise, could it not be argued that someone who's team has had bust after bust are better able to point out red flags in a player's development better than you?

 

[TwoPiece]

Well that is because you are a wings fan, not a hockey fan. Hockey fans can actually enjoy watching many different teams and leagues and follow players from juniors up,, making it irrelevant how good their favorite team is. Furthermore, even if I accepted your premise, could it not be argued that someone who's team has had bust after bust are better able to point out red flags in a player's development better than you?

Wrong. I am hockey fan first. Detroit is just my favorite NHL team now.

You're right, though, that seeing bust after bust you would expect someone is able to know better what things young players do that would prevent them from being successful NHLers.

The premise is based off fans who primarily follow 1 team, which the majority of people do. For example, casual Chicago fans thought that Duncan Keith's career would be as good as Nick Lidstrom, which casual Detroit fans knew wouldn't be the case. This is on average, and not the case 100%, but usually. Obviously there is a ton of homerism involved in this specific example.

A casual Detroit fan, after watching Lidstrom, McCrimmon, Howe, Coffey, Konstantinov, Fetisov, Murphy, Chelios, Rafalski, etc, is more likely to notice (in my experience dealing/discussing with thousands of fans) what younger players' habits translates to the NHL than an Oilers fan of the same generation. On the flip side, that EDM fan may notice more warts. The difference being total potential. Teams develop the good in players and tend to focus on upside. They can usually tell where the person needs development or discover it naturally.

Regardless, my comments aren't rules, just experiences about casual fans that I think some people took too literally or black and white. It's not.

Back to the topic, which is the player, would Habs fans be happy if his production "stales" at center this year in Liiga? If he stayed on wing I would expect/hope his numbers to rise, but "switching" to center may not flatter his point totals. If he plays center all year and his numbers rise then that would be good for both player and team.

 

[ijuka]

... That's one awful way of looking at things. You think that a casual Detroit fan watching Lidström in his prime had ANY idea about what kind of a PROSPECT Lidström was? I doubt the vast majority of Red Wings fans had even heard of Lidström until he was 21.

 

[PKWeber]

... That's one awful way of looking at things. You think that a casual Detroit fan watching Lidström in his prime had ANY idea about what kind of a PROSPECT Lidström was? I doubt the vast majority of Red Wings fans had even heard of Lidström until he was 21.

Ignore him, he doesn’t even know that much about his own prospects lol.

 

[Mrb1p]

Ignore him, he doesn’t even know that much about his own prospects lol.

Calling Rasmussen the 5th best prospect in the 2017 draft sure is... questionnable.

 

[Battle Lin]

imo he can play center in nhl now and score 30 points, which is good, hes ready hes just not that good yet

 

[Mrb1p]

imo he can play center in nhl now and score 30 points, which is good, hes ready hes just not that good yet

Hes not. Hes not strong enough nor fast enough

 

[Hfbsux]

From what I have seen, he is fast enough. It's his balance and strenght that needs to be work on, big time. Building up his lower body strenght should do wonders for him.

 

[Thebesthockey]

imo he can play center in nhl now and score 30 points, which is good, hes ready hes just not that good yet

and hes a -minus 60 on the season
still 2-3 years away from nhl

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

@10:38

Chayka calls Kotkaniemi the best center of the draft. Gotta think arizona would have picked him if he was available.

 

[King'sPawn]

@10:38

Chayka calls Kotkaniemi the best center of the draft. Gotta think arizona would have picked him if he was available.

I used to understand drafting by position/need. Now it boggles my mind looking back how I used to think.

 

[Andrei79]

Why do Red Wings fans care if Montreal picked Kotkaniemi ?

Because they feel Zadina's better (he's not) ? You should be celebrating and posting about in Zadina's thread.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

@10:38

Chayka calls Kotkaniemi the best center of the draft. Gotta think arizona would have picked him if he was available.

Did coyotes take the best center as well no matter what?

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Did coyotes take the best center as well no matter what?

What

 

[JohnLennon]

I used to understand drafting by position/need. Now it boggles my mind looking back how I used to think.

Really? It boggles your mind? That's an interesting take considering it's been done for a long time.

Consider the case of Montreal. They took the best center available, who also happened to be ranked quite highly in the draft. Kotkaniemi is 8 months younger than Zadina. The choice isn't that puzzling and the strategy isn't eother.

 

[King'sPawn]

Really? It boggles your mind? That's an interesting take considering it's been done for a long time.

Consider the case of Montreal. They took the best center available, who also happened to be ranked quite highly in the draft. Kotkaniemi is 8 months younger than Zadina. The choice isn't that puzzling and the strategy isn't eother.

The Kings took Teubert because he was a defenseman and he filled a toughness need. They missed out on drafting Myers or Karlsson due to a need.

Kings took Bernier at 11th overall in 2006 because they needed a goalie. Missed out on Little, Grabner, Giroux, etc.

It's mind boggling it's still a practice when teams eventually miss out on getting a good player over getting a needed player.

For the record, this isn't a knock against Kotkaniemi. It's just a knock on the drafting philosophy.

 

[BusQuets]

The Kings took Teubert because he was a defenseman and he filled a toughness need. They missed out on drafting Myers or Karlsson due to a need.

Kings took Bernier at 11th overall in 2006 because they needed a goalie. Missed out on Little, Grabner, Giroux, etc.

It's mind boggling it's still a practice when teams eventually miss out on getting a good player over getting a needed player.

For the record, this isn't a knock against Kotkaniemi. It's just a knock on the drafting philosophy.

Like Florida taking Barkov instead of Drouin or Seth? Or Columbus taking Johansen instead of Nino or Connolly? You can find examples both ways. Your examples are just Kings drafting badly.

 

[le_sean]

The Kings took Teubert because he was a defenseman and he filled a toughness need. They missed out on drafting Myers or Karlsson due to a need.

Kings took Bernier at 11th overall in 2006 because they needed a goalie. Missed out on Little, Grabner, Giroux, etc.

It's mind boggling it's still a practice when teams eventually miss out on getting a good player over getting a needed player.

For the record, this isn't a knock against Kotkaniemi. It's just a knock on the drafting philosophy.

You're comparing a physical defender with limited puck skills (not a lot of upside from the start) and a goaltender (almost impossible to predict development) to a skilled centre?

 

[Isaac Nootin]

@10:38

Chayka calls Kotkaniemi the best center of the draft. Gotta think arizona would have picked him if he was available.

Not sure I'd be trotting out the guy who drafted Hayton at #5 as validation for Montreal reaching.

 

[King'sPawn]

You're comparing a physical defender with limited puck skills (not a lot of upside from the start) and a goaltender (almost impossible to predict development) to a skilled centre?

I'm making analogies stating why drafting based on organizational need, no matter what the need is, may not be the best strategy to employ even if the end result works out.

I wasn't even knocking the pick. Just the rationale behind it.

 

[JohnLennon]

Not sure I'd be trotting out the guy who drafted Hayton at #5 as validation for Montreal reaching.

Lol... That guy just drafted and graduated Keller, Chychrun, Dvorak, Perlini, Fischer, and Strome in just the last couple years. He's for all intents and purposes been excellent at drafting. Insinuating he lacks hockey knowledge because you don't personally agree with a pick shows a severe lack of foresight and understanding of the draft.

 

[kelsier]

Lol... That guy just drafted and graduated Keller, Chychrun, Dvorak, Perlini, Fischer, and Strome in just the last couple years. He's for all intents and purposes been excellent at drafting. Insinuating he lacks hockey knowledge because you don't personally agree with a pick shows a severe lack of foresight and understanding of the draft.

I was already thinking about Strome before you even mentioned him. Today the particular pick doesn't look all that great to be honest considering the variety of players on the table, including another center (Barzal). Otherwise I agree that he's been pretty stellar in drafting.

Anyway that's that for derailing the topic. Really eager to see Jesperi next month (hopefully) starting in the 1st line and in the middle when Ässät meet Lukko.

 

[Claypool]

Not to derail the thread, but have there been any other draft videos behind the scenes from other teams? I really like watching that kinda stuff.

 

[lawrence]

Not to derail the thread, but have there been any other draft videos behind the scenes from other teams? I really like watching that kinda stuff.

so far I've only seen the one from Chicago, Montreal and Vancouver. Chicago one is good, as it shows them prior to the draft then at the draft. Vancouver's is just draft day, although they do have a video about them ranking the players.