C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part II

[Ippenator]

You claimed he was Matthews level at the time. So, I find it funny you are presenting this now as that you didn't see him as a top 10 pick. You completely over exaggerate whatever bias there is. You claimed it was the main reason Matthews went one, and that has proven to be absolutely incorrect.

What? I claimed Laine to be on Matthews’s level and said something similar also about Aho, but I can’t honestly believe that I would have ever said anything similar about Puljujärvi, as he was never really even close to that class and it was pretty clear to me already quite early. I think you are mixing up my comments about diffferent players after all.

 

[93LEAFS]

What? I claimed Laine to be on Matthews’s level and said something similar also about Aho, but I can’t honestly believe that I would have ever said anything similar about Puljujärvi, as he was never really even close to that class and it was pretty clear to me already quite early. I think you are mixing up my comments about diffferent players after all.

Here. Here are you words verbatim. This is what happened last time we discussed nationality biases, when you claimed it was the main reason Matthews was ranked number 1. Matthews has pretty clearly shown since it was more than just on nationality bias, and most likely on merit.

I see also Pulju as a same class talent as Matthews and Aho. Definitely he is the rawer talent, but I also see that he has way bigger upside than Matthews or Aho. Probably even as much upside as Laine has.

Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round III

 

[Ippenator]

Here. Here are you words verbatim. This is what happened last time we discussed nationality biases, when you claimed it was the main reason Matthews was ranked number 1. Matthews has pretty clearly shown since it was more than just on nationality bias, and most likely on merit.



Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round III

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in any of those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

 

[93LEAFS]

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in anyone those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

He's been the best 5v5 goal scorer since he entered the league. His first year on the first PP and not having Hyman on his wing, he's putting up a pretty high assist rate. He also scores at a pretty elite rate on the PP. I don't know how there can still be any doubt about him going number 1 due to nationality bias. Which, seems to be the case being used here against Hughes. He did fine against Washington as a rookie and had issues against the best shut-down line in hockey (and still generated a high number of chances and didn't covert at the usual rate).

I would think Matthews success in spite of your doubts of his consensus #1 ranking, relative to the other players in the draft would make you somewhat back off what seem to be firmly held beliefs about it just being NA-Bias with Hughes too. Following prospects and the drafts for years, teams mess up for a variety of reasons or succeed for bunch of them. Even if you think the NA Media is biased due to who they cover, I don't think that extends to actual NHL draft rooms, outside of the cases of Russians which is IIHF transfer agreement related. The bias against Pettersson is pretty much the same that hurt other prospects. He was a late-bloomer (didn't emerge really until the end of his 17 year-old year as a top kid), overly skinny and didn't particularly wow at the WJC or at the previous Hlinka (although a very strong U-18's). I think that is much more the case than an anti-Euro bias. Patrick benefitted from dominating early on (and its still way too early to write him off), many of the same things that hurt Pettersson also hurt Cody Glass in comparison to Patrick, who are two Canadian kids from the same city born a year apart.

NHL teams may overvalue small sample sizes with Euro prospects, its why guys go very high after good WJC's or great U-18's or too low after sub-par ones. But, that is a problem with the process, and not an issue with universally underrating Euros. It helped guys like Puljujarvi, Gurianov, Nikushkin, Filatov and such boost their stocks, but hurt guys like Barkov (only played well, or at least put up points in the relegation round) and Pettersson. And still, Barkov appears to have gone roughly were he should have, and Pettersson's stock didn't overly implode.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Some NHL executives definitely think that Elias Pettersson not playing in North America factored in to keeping him from being the first-overall pick in 2017.

31 Thoughts: NHL embracing new era of fun, personality

31 Thoughts: NHL embracing new era of fun, personality
Elliotte Friedman October 10, 2018, 11:28 AM

...

11. “Here’s one for you,” an amateur scout said. “Can you find the NHL team that had [Elias] Pettersson No. 1 on its draft board?”

12. The Canucks produced a draft video after Pettersson’s fifth-overall selection in 2017, revealing they felt safe trading down one spot with Vegas, but were worried about the Rangers — picking seventh. One executive indicated that if Pettersson had followed top pick Nico Hischier to North America the season beforehand, the current Canuck would have been No. 1. Another disagreed, if only because it is so hard to be dominant with his body structure.

“You need to be special if you’re built the way he is,” a third said of Pettersson, who’s currently listed at 6’2″ and 176 pounds on the Canucks’ website. “I had no doubt that he was the most talented player in his draft class. Him not playing in North America and being so physically raw prevented him [from going] first overall in my opinion.”

...

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Well, one executive thought that and another disagreed. I mean, that's the sample size here.

 

[haulinbass]

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in any of those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

Cringe worthy past posts...

 

[Panthaz89]

Some NHL executives definitely think that Elias Pettersson not playing in North America factored in to keeping him from being the first-overall pick in 2017.

31 Thoughts: NHL embracing new era of fun, personality

his stock mostly rose after he was drafted and played in the SHL...before that he played in a much lesser league so it wasn't necessarily that easy to pick him out until he was playing against high-level competition.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in any of those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

What a nonsense critique of Matthews. Maybe he's not overly concern with "playmaking" because he's putting the puck in the net? You do realize a lot of top lines these days have goalscoring centers and playmaking wingers-right?

 

[TimeZone]

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in any of those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

Wow you're just full of terrible posts aren't you?

 

[talitintti]

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in any of those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

Well compared to Laine Matthews is a God in playmaking and everything else.

 

[VictorLustig]

his stock mostly rose after he was drafted and played in the SHL...before that he played in a much lesser league so it wasn't necessarily that easy to pick him out until he was playing against high-level competition.

He was playing at a higher level than maybe 80-90% of his draft class did

 

[kabidjan18]

Wow, didn’t really remember that I wrote anything like that. Sounds really stupid I have to admit. It must have had to do with me not valuing Matthews as highly as a player then as how I have been doing later. I did see Matthews as pretty much an overhyped player. Very good, but not as good as was praised to be and become. And he is still kind of over praised and overrated even today in my opinion. But he sure is good at some things. Goal scoring and puck controlling mostly, but I don’t like him as a center that much, as he is not a great playmaker and even less concentrated in playmaking, which in my opinion should be always a top class center’s number one focus, as the center has mostly at least two passing options with his wingers, and thus makes it a bit harder for the opponents to shutdown that certain line. This emphasizes especially in the playoffs.

Anyway I was also at those times still probably believing that Pulju could still magically develop with his clear weaknesses (puck control, shot quality and hockey IQ), but seems like there hasn’t really happened much of developement for him in any of those areas. And honestly those are areas that players rarely develop much after their junior years, so I was myself in fact probably buying a bit into the Pulju hype then, as he was anyway physically a very intriguing prospect.

Don't worry about it man. We all grow in our knowledge of the sport and learn, just adapt.

Like 3 years ago I argued with 93Leafs that Pulju was going to be better than both Laine and Matthews. Stupidest thing I ever said.

That's why this time with Hughes and Kakko I just trust the scouts know what they're talking about. Kakko is my type of player, quite literally, just like you have a type of significant other well Kakko is my type for hockey player. But I can see why Hughes is good and others who are paid to do more work than I on this subject are even more impressed so, won't doubt until I see a good reason to.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Is this the Jack Hughes thread or the “everything-but-Jack-Hughes” thread?

 

[Hokinaittii]

I assume the small injury he had in exhibition games wasn't anything serious? Has he practiced with the team?

 

[Blade Paradigm]

It's interesting to note that Emmanuel Perry, founder of Corsica and developer of NHLe among other metrics, does not think highly of Hughes.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's interesting to note that Emmanuel Perry, founder of Corsica and developer of NHLe among other metrics, does not think highly of Hughes.

Does it matter? How can advanced stats without enough data to run advanced stats judge who the best players are in the draft?

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Does it matter? How can advanced stats without enough data to run advanced stats judge who the best players are in the draft?

To be fair, he crunched last year's numbers in July.

When he compared Hughes' D-1 season with Kakko's, Hughes just barely squeaked above Kakko in terms of value.



This season is a whole different conversation. Kakko has taken a quantum leap, going from the Liiga junior system to the top-tier Liiga pro league. It would be interesting to see his next list.

I hadn't seen this until today, but it reinforces the evidence that advanced stats are heavily in favor of Kakko.

 

[Dominance]

And Patrick shouldn’t honestly even have been in the top 5, or even barely in the top 10 in his draft. And this was my clear opinion already before the draft. Doesn't have much to do with how Hughes should be drafted though, as Hughes is a much better player before the draft than Patrick was. But still shows very much how laughable the North American built hype is for the North American prospects compared to the hype for the European prospects.

Patrick vs Pettersson is a great example of it for example. It’s not even funny how crazy the North American hype bias is compared to what it is for the European prospects.

What? You’re way out to lunch with this. Patrick’s performance guaranteed he would be a top pick. Shouldn’t have gone top-10? Insanity. He should still go top-5 in a redraft, easily.

I’m sure you’ll enjoy watching Canada and the US and all their falsely hyped up players obliterate their competition at the WJC this year.

 

[kroypuck]

It's interesting to note that Emmanuel Perry, founder of Corsica and developer of NHLe among other metrics, does not think highly of Hughes.

welcome back

 

[TimeZone]

Interested to get a better look at this kid tonight.

 

[Ippenator]

What? You’re way out to lunch with this. Patrick’s performance guaranteed he would be a top pick. Shouldn’t have gone top-10? Insanity. He should still go top-5 in a redraft, easily.

I’m sure you’ll enjoy watching Canada and the US and all their falsely hyped up players obliterate their competition at the WJC this year.

By pure skill Patrick should have probably been a top 5 pick, but even that barely. But with his very well known injury proneness he should have been barely a top 10 pick.

You mean how the Yanks obliterated Slovakia with a whopping 2-1 score? And don’t make examples of Denmark being trashed by Canada, as they will be completely trashed by the best European teams as well. Lets see the tournament first, before starting some over the top praising...

 

[Red Solo Cup]

Can anybody comment on he he played today? I know he picked up an assist, but I couldn’t watch the game.

 

[Westcoastsniper]

Can anybody comment on he he played today? I know he picked up an assist, but I couldn’t watch the game.

Only saw half the game, but he looked pretty good out there. Was quick and made some nice set ups to teammates but did not dominate. You could say it was a good performance by an under-ager though. People want to see more from him though as a potential #1 pick. Shot is underwhelming, but nice agility to open up space to make a pass.

 

[Thebesthockey]

better put on some pounds fast