C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part II

[Red Solo Cup]

Hughes is going first, zero challengers.

 

[CLW]

no it actually isn't...I just pointed out not a single soul is in the Kakko thread pulling this ****. nobody. just insecure Kakko fans trying to come in and derail Hughes.

you keep talking like there should be no criticism here for Hughes...I never said that and if anything I said came off that way then it is incorrect. of course you can criticize a player, it is a message board, all for it. but what I am saying is those that are forcing a false narrative here by only showcasing the flaws of one player but not the other...it has been so biased and sad, and like Konk said eerily similar to Matthews and Laine with these narratives.

people for months have been coming in here trying to force their narratives that no other scouting service agrees with, Kakko is not better than Hughes..but some certain posters can't deal with it and are flat out trolling.

anybody can come in and say I have some concerns, fears, flaws etc with Hughes...all good, it is welcome...many of us will challenge and call it out right back..but leave Kakko out of it, he belongs nowhere in here nor does videos/scouting reports of Kakko...stay in his thread and pimp him to the hockey Gods all you like...

Of course Kakko belongs in here. This is a discussion forum, we are here to compare players based on their strength and weaknesses. This is how scouts come up with their lists in the first place. To just accept Hughes as number one based on some kind of spacious consensus and received wisdom is nonsense. People have the right to their opinions and to express their opinions and ideas. That is why we are on these FORUMS. FORUM = a place, situation, or group in which people exchange ideas and discuss issues.

Another thing, nobody has argued that Hughes will NOT go number one. Hughes WILL go number one, that is obvious, if nothing else because he has been kind of anointed as the number one for years. Still I saw a professional observer say that Hughes may not be the best player from this draft at the end of the day, a not too uncommon sentiment as we can see on these forums. If so, why draft him number one, why not take the best player - which is the entire point of having a draft after all.

 

[King'sPawn]

If the Kings get first overall, Hughes' speed would be a huge step in terms of building a "faster" team.

Granted, most teams would benefit from Hughes, but it would fit the Kings' need* of getting younger and faster.

*I know, never draft for need. Secondly, Blake wants a speedy team; I don't necessarily agree with that.

 

[Anardil]

I have to start off this reply by saying that I am by no means an expert on prospects, especially ones from outside of my country. I think that one very telling part of the equation is that Hughes is probably a lock to be part of one of the deepest rosters for the upcoming WJC. Can the same be said of any of his perceived challengers?

Lastly, I want to state that the above question should be taken solely as such. It is in no way meant to disparage any prospect, or any poster with a different opinion. Honestly, I would be happy with any of the projected top 5, if my team were fortunate to obtain a top pick this year.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I have to start off this reply by saying that I am by no means an expert on prospects, especially ones from outside of my country. I think that one very telling part of the equation is that Hughes is probably a lock to be part of one of the deepest rosters for the upcoming WJC. Can the same be said of any of his perceived challengers?

Lastly, I want to state that the above question should be taken solely as such. It is in no way meant to disparage any prospect, or any poster with a different opinion. Honestly, I would be happy with any of the projected top 5, if my team were fortunate to obtain a top pick this year.

I am pretty sure Kakko is a lock in the top 6 for Finland.

 

[AmericanDream]

Of course Kakko belongs in here. This is a discussion forum, we are here to compare players based on their strength and weaknesses. This is how scouts come up with their lists in the first place. To just accept Hughes as number one based on some kind of spacious consensus and received wisdom is nonsense. People have the right to their opinions and to express their opinions and ideas. That is why we are on these FORUMS. FORUM = a place, situation, or group in which people exchange ideas and discuss issues.

Another thing, nobody has argued that Hughes will NOT go number one. Hughes WILL go number one, that is obvious, if nothing else because he has been kind of anointed as the number one for years. Still I saw a professional observer say that Hughes may not be the best player from this draft at the end of the day, a not too uncommon sentiment as we can see on these forums. If so, why draft him number one, why not take the best player - which is the entire point of having a draft after all.

bold part 1- actually, no he doesn't.

bold part 2- yes there have been countless people saying Hughes will not go #1 led by the Kakko scouting service providers in here...scroll back and read more, or go into the thread by the same guy who put half his nonsense in here "
I May Be In The Minority . . . But I Believe That Kaapo Kakko Could Be Selected 1st Overall in 2019

enjoy....

 

[CLW]

bold part 1- actually, no he doesn't.

bold part 2- yes there have been countless people saying Hughes will not go #1 led by the Kakko scouting service providers in here...scroll back and read more, or go into the thread by the same guy who put half his nonsense in here "
I May Be In The Minority . . . But I Believe That Kaapo Kakko Could Be Selected 1st Overall in 2019

enjoy....

Yes, people have an opinion, this is a forum not a church. The possibility that Kakko goes first overall is still a possibility, however slim. And people are free to rate another player, like Kakko, above Huhges all they want if they believe they will be a better NHL player down the line. That does not mean they do not realize Hughes, for a number of reasons, is the "consensus" number 1 even if they personally rate another player above him.

 

[FrankGallagher]

To deny that there's any possibility Hughes can be pushed is pretty ignorant. Pre world juniors Patrick was the clear number 1 amongst scouts, Heiskanen, Makar, and Pettersson were fringe top 10 picks. The second half of the season and prospects developing/proving there starts are legit carries too much weight to rule out any possibility. Even Hall who is a good comparable in terms of hype to Hughes got pushed by Seguin down the stretch. Again, I think Hughes is clearly number 1 right now but to say people cannot argue someone else over him on a prospect discussion forum is ridiculous.

 

[phillipsj89]

Jack Hughes 1st overall? But first - Gold - DUBNETWORK

Some thoughts on Jack, and the upcoming World Juniors.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

To deny that there's any possibility Hughes can be pushed is pretty ignorant. Pre world juniors Patrick was the clear number 1 amongst scouts, Heiskanen, Makar, and Pettersson were fringe top 10 picks. The second half of the season and prospects developing/proving there starts are legit carries too much weight to rule out any possibility. Even Hall who is a good comparable in terms of hype to Hughes got pushed by Seguin down the stretch. Again, I think Hughes is clearly number 1 right now but to say people cannot argue someone else over him on a prospect discussion forum is ridiculous.

No one is saying Hughes can't be pushed. Virtually every "consensus" #1 pick in recent memory has been "pushed" at some point. Also, no one is saying posters can't have their favorites. That said-let's face it: This board is what it is: a bunch of posters masquerading as "experts." There's only a small handful who have opinions worth considering seriously. The rest is fanboyism and pseudo-nationalism.

 

[Dodospice]

I don’t think Kakko goes #1 and I don’t think he’s really even pushing Hughes for it, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t #1 in June... however I can get more on board with someone saying that they believe Kakko will have a better career when all is said and done then I am with him going #1.

There’s been lots of times when I’ve had a guy ranked above the guy that goes #1 but don’t expect anyone but the consensus #1 to be the first overall pick.

 

[CLW]

I don’t think Kakko goes #1 and I don’t think he’s really even pushing Hughes for it, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t #1 in June... however I can get more on board with someone saying that they believe Kakko will have a better career when all is said and done then I am with him going #1.

There’s been lots of times when I’ve had a guy ranked above the guy that goes #1 but don’t expect anyone but the consensus #1 to be the first overall pick.

Exactly. I have no doubt that Hughes will go #1, but I feel there is a more than a bit of concensus herd mentality and blind faith going on. Some people here act as if it is sacrilegious to question the group think, without even considering the merits of the arguments. Hallelujah.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

^ I was at the game. Jack Hughes took a big hit, like a double team 2 on 1 kind of situation along the boards and immediately went to the bench.

It look pretty serious & he didn't play another shift. But he stayed on the bench as he was out after the game for the handshake & was moving around normally, not holding his shoulder or anything.

It was nice to see Quinn stand up for him right after.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Hughes is going first, zero challengers.

Nolan Patrick was also going first.

 

[Nabrules]

Nolan Patrick was also going first.

Jesus Christ enough with the whole Nolan Patrick didn’t go first stuff. Sure he was projected to get 1 for over a year but it was well known he wasn’t a “special” first overall talent. As Bob McKenzie put it scouts said Patrick could be a first line C or a third line C. For Hughes, McKenzie mentioned scouts using the word “special” and yes even “generational” (tho he quickly said he’s not mcdavid).

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

I think if people are expecting Jack to dominate this tournament they should dial their expectations back.

Its not unreasonable to suggest he could be pushed/challenged. I didn't get to see Kakko play but he's obviously having a good year. Not that I think he won't go #1. But out of the last few projected 'wire-to-wire' 1st overall's I think Jack's #1 status is probably most up for debate.

But his skill & smarts are undeniable, even last night in a game he didn't dominate you could see his talent that everyone talks about. I still think he'll go the distance & be the first guy taken in Vancouver.

I also think he'll start as a winger in the NHL (assuming he plays right away), because of size+strength & needing to improve faceoffs.

 

[Ippenator]

Nolan Patrick was also going first.

And Patrick shouldn’t honestly even have been in the top 5, or even barely in the top 10 in his draft. And this was my clear opinion already before the draft. Doesn't have much to do with how Hughes should be drafted though, as Hughes is a much better player before the draft than Patrick was. But still shows very much how laughable the North American built hype is for the North American prospects compared to the hype for the European prospects.

Patrick vs Pettersson is a great example of it for example. It’s not even funny how crazy the North American hype bias is compared to what it is for the European prospects.

 

[1OApick]

And Patrick shouldn’t honestly even have been in the top 5, or even barely in the top 10 in his draft. And this was my clear opinion already before the draft. Doesn't have much to do with how Hughes should be drafted though, as Hughes is a much better player before the draft than Patrick was. But still shows very much how laughable the North American built hype is for the North American prospects compared to the hype for the European prospects.

Patrick vs Pettersson is a great example of it for example. It’s not even funny how crazy the North American hype bias is compared to what it is for the European prospects.

Exactly Patrick vs Pettersson is great example about bias. If Europrospect have some questionmarks he is probably overlooked.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

And Patrick shouldn’t honestly even have been in the top 5, or even barely in the top 10 in his draft. And this was my clear opinion already before the draft. Doesn't have much to do with how Hughes should be drafted though, as Hughes is a much better player before the draft than Patrick was. But still shows very much how laughable the North American built hype is for the North American prospects compared to the hype for the European prospects.

Patrick vs Pettersson is a great example of it for example. It’s not even funny how crazy the North American hype bias is compared to what it is for the European prospects.

Is this really the best example of pro-NA bias? 2017 was a draft where the #1 pick and three of the top five selections were from outside NA.

 

[Ippenator]

Is this really the best example of pro-NA bias? 2017 was a draft where the #1 pick and three of the top five selections were from outside NA.

So what? Hischier was playing in a North American junior league before he was drafted and of course he got from there the North American hype that helped him get drafted that high. Of course his skills helped him to a point too, but without the hype he wouldn't have been after all drafted as high as he was in the end. Well, yeah Heiskanen was drafted 3rd and because of the North American hype in general affecting the drafts quite much, it was a tad even surprising in the end that Heiskanen went already as 3rd. But on the other hand he had such a year in Europe that it was hard for even the North Americans to not pay attention. Especially his U18 tournament was amazing and those tournaments make usually European prospects get at least some hype even from the America centered NHL hockey ”experts”.

Oh, and Pettersson should have been the clear number one in that draft. And he most probably would have even been, if he played his hockey in one of the North American junior leagues before the draft.

If anything the three Europeans in the top 5 in that draft just shows that Europe had clearly the best players in that draft. In fact three of the best players in the draft were Europeans, so the fact that a North American overly hyped kid like Patrick got still drafted as second overall, shows exactly very clearly how the North American hype works.

 

[Panthaz89]

So what? Hischier was playing in a North American junior league before he was drafted and of course he got from there the North American hype that helped him get drafted that high. Of course his skills helped him to a point too, but without the hype he wouldn't have been after all drafted as high as he was in the end. Well, yeah Heiskanen was drafted 3rd and because of the North American hype in general affecting the drafts quite much, it was a tad even surprising in the end that Heiskanen went already as 3rd. But on the other hand he had such a year in Europe that it was hard for even the North Americans to not pay attention. Especially his U18 tournament was amazing and those tournaments make usually European prospects get at least some hype even from the America centered NHL hockey ”experts”.

Oh, and Pettersson should have been the clear number one in that draft. And he most probably would have even been, if he played his hockey in one of the North American junior leagues before the draft.

If anything the three Europeans in the top 5 in that draft just shows that Europe had clearly the best players in that draft. In fact three of the best players in the draft were Europeans, so the fact that a North American overly hyped kid like Patrick got still drafted as second overall, shows exactly very clearly how the North American hype works.

Sound like a total Euro fan boy....1 guy gets picked in the top 5 and isn't living up to expectations only 2 years in and its bias....you know how many Euros fizzle out after good seasons? Scouts don't give a damn whether a player is Euro or not.

 

[93LEAFS]

So what? Hischier was playing in a North American junior league before he was drafted and of course he got from there the North American hype that helped him get drafted that high. Of course his skills helped him to a point too, but without the hype he wouldn't have been after all drafted as high as he was in the end. Well, yeah Heiskanen was drafted 3rd and because of the North American hype in general affecting the drafts quite much, it was a tad even surprising in the end that Heiskanen went already as 3rd. But on the other hand he had such a year in Europe that it was hard for even the North Americans to not pay attention. Especially his U18 tournament was amazing and those tournaments make usually European prospects get at least some hype even from the America centered NHL hockey ”experts”.

Oh, and Pettersson should have been the clear number one in that draft. And he most probably would have even been, if he played his hockey in one of the North American junior leagues before the draft.

If anything the three Europeans in the top 5 in that draft just shows that Europe had clearly the best players in that draft. In fact three of the best players in the draft were Europeans, so the fact that a North American overly hyped kid like Patrick got still drafted as second overall, shows exactly very clearly how the North American hype works.

How about 2016 where you went on about this bias in the same regard? I'm pretty sure the Leafs drafting with "NA-Bias" worked out perfectly fine, despite there not being any actual bias. Puljujarvi was more hyped than anyone not named Matthews or Laine, and probably doesn't go top 10 in a re-draft. I just as easily choose a selective year to demonstrate this as you did with 2017.

 

[Ippenator]

How about 2016 where you went on about this bias in the same regard? I'm pretty sure the Leafs drafting with "NA-Bias" worked out perfectly fine, despite there not being any actual bias. Puljujarvi was more hyped than anyone not named Matthews or Laine, and probably doesn't go top 10 in a re-draft. I just as easily choose a selective year to demonstrate this as you did with 2017.

The North American bias is definitely there and living very strong. It’s not like the scouts want to favor any nationalities in general, but they just buy in completely to the hype that there is about prospects that are playing in the North American junior leagues. It’s a North American hype bias, that can only occasionally be broken by some Europeans that have very good U18 or U20 tournaments. Sometimes those Euro’s get even too much the hype also, as the sample size can be too small and things like Puljujärvi can happen then. But he in fact emphasizes how awfully the North American scouts know and understand about the European prospects after all. I have to say that I was watching Puljujärvi play a lot before his draft and I was really surprised how he was for example analyzed as a player in Eliteprospects and many North American prospect analysises. There were comments about him having an excellent shot and very good puck handling skills, when it had become obvious to me while following his play during that season that he is terrible with his puck handling and that his shot is really hard, but honestly otherwise pretty horrible. Also he was praised for having very high hockey IQ, which is in fact probably his worst quality and might very well be the thing that after all prevents him from ever being a star player in the NHL.

For me it was easy to see these problems in his game even in the U20 tournament where Finland won gold and he won the scoring and was voted as the MVP. He just had such excellent linemates in Laine and Aho, and they pretty much carried Pulju over his pretty awful weaknesses, and otherwise he was physically a freak in that tournament which also helped him with playing against top juniors in the world. Puljujärvi was scouted more by points than by really watching him play and understanding his true weaknesses and strengths. He shouldn’t have been a top 10 pick if he had been properly scouted on the basis of his true play in Liiga not just points) after all.

 

[93LEAFS]

The North American bias is definitely there and living very strong. It’s not like the scouts want to favor any nationalities in general, but they just buy in completely to the hype that there is about prospects that are playing in the North American junior leagues. It’s a North American hype bias, that can only occasionally be broken by some Eurooeans that have very good U18 or U20 tournaments. Sometimes those Euro’s get even too much the hype also, as the sample size can be too small and things like Puljujärvi can happen then. But he in fact emphasizes how awfully the North American scouts know and understand about the European prospects after all. I have to say that I was watching Puljujärvi play a lot before his draft and I was really surprised how he was for example analyzed as a player in Eliteprospects and many North American prospect analysises. There were comments about him having an excellent shot and very good puck handling skills, when it had become obvious to me while following his play during that season that he is terrible with his puck handling and that his shot is really hard, but honestly otherwise pretty horrible. Also he was praised for having versatile hockey IQ, which is in fact probably his worst quality and might very well be the thing that after all prevents him from ever being a star player in the NHL.

For me it was easy to see these problems in his game even in the U20 tournament where Finland won gold and he won the scoring and was voted as the MVP. He just had such excellent linemates in Laine and Aho, and they pretty much carried Pulju over his pretty awful weaknesses, and otherwise he was physically a freak in that tournament which also helped him with playing against top juniors in the world. Puljujärvi was scouted more by points than with really watching him play and understanding his true weaknesses and strengths. He shouldn’t have been a top 10 pick if he had been properly scouted after all.

You claimed Puljujarvi was Matthews level at the time, and Laine was way ahead. So, I find it funny you are presenting this now as that you didn't see him as a top 10 pick. You completely over exaggerate whatever bias there is. You claimed it was the main reason Matthews went one, and that has proven to be absolutely incorrect.