C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part II

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LoveHateLeafs

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How is Hughes going to handle being "the guy" if he ends up on a team without a bunch of talent around? He's he really all that better then say Clayton Keller in Arizona? Hughes is also better at 16/17 years old, but Keller also took massive leaps in his D+1 and D+2 season.

To me, that player isn't near as valuable as the Eichels/Matthews/Barkov's of the world who bring that 200ft game and make everyone better.
Do you have any reason to believe there's a player of that caliber available in this draft?
 
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1972

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Do you have any reason to believe there's a player of that caliber available in this draft?

I haven't seen everyone, but to answer that question nope. Dach might be the closest thing to that big 1C, but he's definitely not that caliber.
 

KBobs

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If anyone is interested, Pierre McGuire talked about Hughes briefly on Montreal radio when asked if the Canadiens should look to lose rather than make it into the playoffs only to get knocked out in the first round.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-6...ng-to-address-struggling-power-play-1.1226052

The discussion starts around the 17 minute mark. Note: if you're on mobile, you need to make it full screen to see the audio time.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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If anyone is interested, Pierre McGuire talked about Hughes briefly on Montreal radio when asked if the Canadiens should look to lose rather than make it into the playoffs only to get knocked out in the first round.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-6...ng-to-address-struggling-power-play-1.1226052

The discussion starts around the 17 minute mark. Note: if you're on mobile, you need to make it full screen to see the audio time.

While I disagree, this is the exact kind of development I was waiting for. Interesting for Pierre to weigh in that way.

While I could see that he won't supplant the guys mentioned. I still like Hughes more than Hall and especially the RNH, Hischier type #1 guys for instance as prospects. I think he more fits in at the bottom of the McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon and Eichel crew. But again I have a lot of faith. But this is the first fracture in that logic from a notable source. Surprised by that position out of Pierre. I don't always see eye to eye with him on a lot of hockey points and prospect positions though.

I think at the very least he is in what the Tavares and Stamkos became group when we discuss him a few years down the road. Yes I know Tavares is one of the most hyped guys so Hughes might not be more notable in their actual draft year, but level of impact as a top 15 player is more of what I mean there which I think you can argue Tavares and Stamkos have been for most of their careers.
 

CLW

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The one that has the 30+ year qualification in terms of calling him the best he has seen USA wise (He always told me McDavid was on a different level than Eichel too and is on a different level than Hughes as well) on it is completely enamored with three things, his edge work, passing and vision. He is a great skater overall but he says his edgework is special. I table both McDavid and MacKinnon and he thinks he is on their level in terms of being a special skater with special attributes, agility being key in terms of turning east, west, north, south whatever way and exploding. Passing wise he picks out and does plays routinely that are not always finished by his linemates in terms of pure numbers or even in a program as good as the development program they just aren't capable of processing some of what he attempts. That if you put him with true NHL wingers he generates scoring chances at a rate that he thinks is incredible. He also loves that he makes in game adjustments at an incredible clip, he doesn't get hung up with the same problem twice very often if at all, I think he said he has seen that happen once in all his viewings but concedes he doesn't watch all of his games. He quickly solves what teams are doing to him and pivots ways to exploit it. It makes sense since he was a smaller player at several levels, but he said usually you need to show guys tape or talk on the bench, Hughes will adjust on his next shift. He takes what you give him and he beats you with it, but he processes the game at a level that great players, not all-stars, not really good NHL players process it at but great players. He doesn't need a video lecture or words from coaches he is doing that and I think that is what really wows my friend the most despite his factors on everything else you can tell this is a rare trait by how excitedly he talks about this. It doesn't mean as much without the skill set, hands and vision but I get the impression and this is just my opinion having talked to him for several years on guys that yes he has seen a ton of great hockey players but they don't necessarily process the game quite as quickly in game.

He is extremely hard to square up on and most contact is glancing, so despite his smaller frame he plays through contact at an incredible rate. I know people will show you highlights of him getting hit, but he also carries the puck a lot, his one complaint is he should let the puck and his teammates do a little more work sometimes. One comment that stuck out is he goes I know the puck follows some guys around in terms of hockey speak, but I am not sure I have seen it the way it does with him. He has the puck on his stick an absolute ton. His acceleration and change of pace is similar to Eichel in terms of it is somewhat deceptive how sometimes it might not look like he hit an extra gear but it is clear the opposition isn't ready for it. He just likes all aspects, but he starts with an amazing base but each time he has seen him he has some adjustment or element of his game that has improved. Low maintenance, really easy to coach and very driven in the conversations he has had with him. You can sort of tell he has just fallen in love with his game. He is higher on Jack Hughes than he was Quinn by a substantial margin. I was a big Quinn Hughes guy and he liked him don't get me wrong but there isn't the same pep in the argument.

I just believe in him as a talent evaluator, we have spent a lot of time talking about players over the years and it is the excitement and conviction that amazes me in terms of him and Hughes. I see a lot of the same things obviously but it means more from him than from me. He will kill certain elements on guys that I like a ton, he doesn't really have downsides to Jack Hughes.

Obviously Jack Hughes is a phenomenal, unique skater. That is the immediate thing that jumps out when you first see him. This scout makes good points about his upside, but I think there are downsides. Hughes through his exceptional skating creates a huge amount of chances for himself, and his team at junior level, including many one on ones, but he doesn't show the natural, lethal finishing other top players do. His passing is supposed to be next level, above his teammates, according to this scout, but he isn't playing with chumps either, but projected NHL level wingers. He plays on a 'broiler' team with hand picked talent, the team speed is top notch among other things. This helps Hughes a great deal.

When you watch Hughes a large part of his game is transitioning the neutral zone at speed. If opposing NHL teams can negate this aspect of Hughes' game, that will affect Hughes' efficiency a great deal. We see from the junior games that when teams slow down Hughes in the neutral zone, the rest of his game suffers. We can use this logic the same way the scout the OP quotes says Hughes vision will create chances for NHL caliber wingers in the O-zone.

Also, you have to ask if C will be the position for a small, skilled player who is on the lightweight end compared to most NHL players. If Hughes ends up on a team that lacks players that can complement him, like most any player he will struggle.
 

Rabid Ranger

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I don't really have an issue with McGuire's comments although I think some of these player comparisons are lazy.
 

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Obviously Jack Hughes is a phenomenal, unique skater. That is the immediate thing that jumps out when you first see him. This scout makes good points about his upside, but I think there are downsides. Hughes through his exceptional skating creates a huge amount of chances for himself, and his team at junior level, including many one on ones, but he doesn't show the natural, lethal finishing other top players do. His passing is supposed to be next level, above his teammates, according to this scout, but he isn't playing with chumps either, but projected NHL level wingers. He plays on a 'broiler' team with hand picked talent, the team speed is top notch among other things. This helps Hughes a great deal.

When you watch Hughes a large part of his game is transitioning the neutral zone at speed. If opposing NHL teams can negate this aspect of Hughes' game, that will affect Hughes' efficiency a great deal. We see from the junior games that when teams slow down Hughes in the neutral zone, the rest of his game suffers. We can use this logic the same way the scout the OP quotes says Hughes vision will create chances for NHL caliber wingers in the O-zone.

Also, you have to ask if C will be the position for a small, skilled player who is on the lightweight end compared to most NHL players. If Hughes ends up on a team that lacks players that can complement him, like most any player he will struggle.

We have this discussion a lot with USMNTDP and USA College hockey players but I think you're underselling the maturity and structure of the teams he is playing against a lot during this schedule. That his wingers are not ready to make the jump to the NHL and are not head and shoulders above much more mature players on a night to night basis. Hughes is, but even as good as some of his teammates are this year, they aren't ready for that to be the case at least on a shift to shift basis a lot of nights. That is more what he means in terms of his playmaking is ahead of some of his teammates in my opinion.

I understand the concerns, I have moved past them personally. However, I totally understand others feeling different, we all have opinions.
 
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8thseedKings

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Interesting insights provided on this thread. It's tricky to make direct comparisons because Jack is a special player and that is undebatable. If you look at his age, impact, and competition the numbers are pretty strong, and if you just compare the numbers that will tell you a lot about who he compares to. This article lays that out pretty clearly.
(Why Jack Hughes is the top-ranked 2019 NHL draft prospect)
In short: He has the ability to contribute points at an elite level such as ______ .
It's easy to throw around comparisons and i think it's not really fair to do so because he is a without a doubt a unique player amongst unique players.
I don't think we are living in a world where a single player is strong enough to will a team to a cup, regardless of how good he is. So whether he is #1 or as good as ______ or better or worse, doesn't change the fact that he will make a significant impact on any team.

If i had to make a direct comparison, i would go no further than Kakko (his closest competition for 1OA at this point).

(Kakko's production is outpacing both Laine and Barkovs production in a similar sample size by a half point per game. Both of whom went 2nd overall interestingly)

While they play and look totally different, Kakko looks more like an NHL ready player, stronger with the puck, just as dominant as Hughes maybe more so, but not exactly as fast and sneaky. And he is dominate playing with some big guys which is interesting. Hughes has higher playmaking abilities than Kakko, but that's not to take anything away from him he is a very capable playmaker as well. Kakko however has the full package in terms of everything you could ask for from an NHL player. Kakkos shot is what really surprised me, very accurate. I just don't see any major weaknesses in his game. His puck protection is already on another level. With that said, there is definitely still room for growth amongst both players. Hughes though is faster, smaller, gets knocked off the puck easier, but is super smart with it. I have way more confidence that Kakkos game will translate to the NHL immediately, while Hughes has a potentially higher upside as far at point production goes. It's all speculation at this point and I think having either one of these players on your team would be amazing. It seems like Hughes would thrive in a Kane/Toews environment and Kakko would thrive in an environment like LA or St. Louis.

I realize this logic flies in the face of the Lose4Hughes hype or those that claim it is absurd to even compare the two... and I don't want to knock Hughes, because nobody knows how much all around/physical growth is left there. But he is more of a gamble in my opinion because of his size and how easy it is to bump him off of the puck. That could change though, and it would be a mistake to underestimate his speed and tenacity to get the puck back. He plays like he is so hungry for the puck every-time he's on the ice, it's really incredible to watch. But if you are comparing the two, watch some video and count the times Jack gets bumped off of the puck verses how many times Kakko does and you will see something very interesting. Now imagine them both in the NHL next year, or playing at the center position. If you're awarding 1st overall based solely on potential points per game, Hughes wins. If you are basing it on a pro's and cons comparison Kakko takes the cake. I think that's pretty clear. Again, it's all speculation at this point and all we can do is count the stats compare, and use the eye test.

What kind of player does your team need?

I'll leave you with these links to consider everything i've mentioned.

 
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AmericanDream

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I am still trying to figure out why Kakko scouting reports are in this thread....I looked over in his thread, not seeing any Hughes scouting reports there...

I actually scrolled back through 4 pages on the Kakko thread and not a single mention of Jack Hughes...but look at the shit posted in here on Kakko lol....
 

Dominance

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I am still trying to figure out why Kakko scouting reports are in this thread....I looked over in his thread, not seeing any Hughes scouting reports there...

I actually scrolled back through 4 pages on the Kakko thread and not a single mention of Jack Hughes...but look at the **** posted in here on Kakko lol....
I grant you that it would be weird if it was some more obscure prospect, but this exact same thing happens every single year with the presumptive top guy’s thread, because that is where most of the discussion is.

Every comparison or critical comment is met with LOL...LMAO...hahahahaha... I, for one, don’t see the comedic aspect that many of your posts in here suggest. I suppose it’s a crude means of insinuating that the other poster’s comment isn’t worth your time.

What do you expect, an echo chamber of a handful of guys lustfully singing praise?
 
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AmericanDream

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I grant you that it would be weird if it was some more obscure prospect, but this exact same thing happens every single year with the presumptive top guy’s thread, because that is where most of the discussion is.

Every comparison or critical comment is met with LOL...LMAO...hahahahaha... I, for one, don’t see the comedic aspect that many of your posts in here suggest. I suppose it’s a crude means of insinuating that the other poster’s comment isn’t worth your time.

What do you expect, an echo chamber of a handful of guys lustfully singing praise?
I dont give 2 shits what you think, if you can't see blatant trolls invading a thread over and over again trying to push their pathetic narrative, yet nobody that follows Hughes is going into Kakko's threads and posting their stupid ass scouting reports on the kid..not sure what to tell you...

This is the Jack Hughes thread, yet all you seem to read about is Kakko in here. Sorry, but I find that absolutely ridiculous and if you don't like what I have to say ignore me...but I will bitch at all the dipshits that post in here about Kakko and call out their nonsense.

Actual discussion between the two prospects is welcome, constantly trying to show one players flaws only is not...
 

Dominance

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I dont give 2 ****s what you think, if you can't see blatant trolls invading a thread over and over again trying to push their pathetic narrative, yet nobody that follows Hughes is going into Kakko's threads and posting their stupid ass scouting reports on the kid..not sure what to tell you...

This is the Jack Hughes thread, yet all you seem to read about is Kakko in here. Sorry, but I find that absolutely ridiculous and if you don't like what I have to say ignore me...but I will ***** at all the dip****s that post in here about Kakko and call out their nonsense.

Actual discussion between the two prospects is welcome, constantly trying to show one players flaws only is not...
Oh, there’s no doubt that there’s some serious narrative-pushing going on. But in your post, you said you were still trying to figure out why that was the case. Well, like I said, it’s a natural side effect of being the presumptive top guy.
 

Rabid Ranger

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A lot of posters are hellbent on the idea Kakko is challenging Hughes for #1 overall. I don't see it. In fact, I don't think he's a sure bet to go #2. The concept that appears lost on a lot of people is that even if Hughes isn't a generational, McDavidesque prospect he's still #1 in this draft.
 

AmericanDream

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Oh, there’s no doubt that there’s some serious narrative-pushing going on. But in your post, you said you were still trying to figure out why that was the case. Well, like I said, it’s a natural side effect of being the presumptive top guy.
but it is more than that and that is the problem. I have been on here for way too long to see this stuff over and over again. if people want to discuss these two, then make a damn Hughes vs Kakko thread, put all the scouting reports and views/flaws of the players there...that would be a perfect spot for it. but this is a Jack Hughes thread, and there are page after page of Kakko posts and posts why Hughes isn't better than Kakko...it doesn't belong here. there is NONE of that going on in Kakko's thread because those of us who follow the US kids do not invade other players threads from other countries and try to diminish their success and pimp up our own guy...it just isn't there, I looked.

they are both great prospects but for those of us who want to come into a Jack Hughes thread to talk about the kid shouldn't have to see posts about another player over and over again, and the scouting reports on Kakko too...give me a f***ing break.
 

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I grant you that it would be weird if it was some more obscure prospect, but this exact same thing happens every single year with the presumptive top guy’s thread, because that is where most of the discussion is.

Every comparison or critical comment is met with LOL...LMAO...hahahahaha... I, for one, don’t see the comedic aspect that many of your posts in here suggest. I suppose it’s a crude means of insinuating that the other poster’s comment isn’t worth your time.

What do you expect, an echo chamber of a handful of guys lustfully singing praise?

In the thread about Jack Hughes? Um yeah I don't think this should be a hit piece on one with the propping up of another. If you want to do that I would do it in the Kakko thread.

Kakko is 6'1" or 2" depending on who you talk to and checks in somewhere between 180 to 185.

Somehow he is more NHL ready because he is ready to survive puck battles over here at that size? You realize he is smaller than your average NHL player checking in at those numbers. Sure he will fill out but how am I am supposed to take that as a seriously huge advantage. Kakko is in for an eye opening experience, he is going to get blasted off the puck a lot next year as well. That is the reality of playing NA hockey where you have more puck battles and while I do like the power upside to his game. He has significantly less power upside in this draft than Cozens or Dach for instance.

Say he packs on 20 lbs, Kakko basically becomes league average in terms of size. Yes he plays with power and through the body but he isn't going to be a physically overwhelming player in the league so those using those projections are kind of out to lunch in my opinion. That is Jonathan Toews essentially. Now yes we know he battles and can play in the trenches but I feel like this narrative is becoming that Kakko can take absurd amounts of contact and play through it. No even the big puck battlers his projected size Bergeron, Larkin, Toews don't play that way all they time, they pick spots because you don't survive in this league playing power hockey all the time at that size.

Jack Hughes isn't going to play a power game. That isn't who he is, so those people that want to talk about it, well it seems a strange thing to do. Nobody from this draft class is going to play the game as fast as Hughes can either so there wouldn't be much joy if that is all I wanted to bounce around each one of these draft eligible guys threads and say it over and over either. I am bothered because if we are having the physical maturity and heavy game argument I don't think he is the guy we should be having it with. That would be Dach. Heck I think Podkolzin has more power projection to his game in terms of the top 10 guys this year from Europe as well.
 
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Dominance

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but it is more than that and that is the problem. I have been on here for way too long to see this stuff over and over again. if people want to discuss these two, then make a damn Hughes vs Kakko thread, put all the scouting reports and views/flaws of the players there...that would be a perfect spot for it. but this is a Jack Hughes thread, and there are page after page of Kakko posts and posts why Hughes isn't better than Kakko...it doesn't belong here. there is NONE of that going on in Kakko's thread because those of us who follow the US kids do not invade other players threads from other countries and try to diminish their success and pimp up our own guy...it just isn't there, I looked.

they are both great prospects but for those of us who want to come into a Jack Hughes thread to talk about the kid shouldn't have to see posts about another player over and over again, and the scouting reports on Kakko too...give me a ****ing break.
I’m struggling to understand why you are so heated. If it’s certain posters, ignore them or skip over their posts. And did you really mean to say that scouting views analyzing Hughes’ flaws don’t belong in this thread? Do you think prospect threads should be nothing but singing praises?
 
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The Zetterberg Era

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A lot of posters are hellbent on the idea Kakko is challenging Hughes for #1 overall. I don't see it. In fact, I don't think he's a sure bet to go #2. The concept that appears lost on a lot of people is that even if Hughes isn't a generational, McDavidesque prospect he's still #1 in this draft.

Even in Pierre's comments it is clear Hughes is still #1 on his board. Which has been some of what caused this argument again. Is he is going #1 barring a serious injury.

I disagree that he isn't with some of the more elite players to come through, but that is my personal opinion. It also depends on how you view generational, some have a very strict interpretation of that while others do not around here and we know that. Similar to when the term #1 D-man is referenced around here, it seems to mean different things to individual posters.
 

AmericanDream

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I’m struggling to understand why you are so heated. If it’s certain posters, ignore them or skip over their posts. And did you really mean to say that scouting views analyzing Hughes’ flaws don’t belong in this thread? Do you think prospect threads should be nothing but singing praises?
read the post above mine from Zetterberg..not sure what you are having trouble with...this is a Jack Hughes thread...period...coming in and talking about scouting reports from Kakko and pimping up Kakko in this thread doesn't belong...it is a simple as that..if you want to talk about Kakko go to his own thread or create a Hughes vs Kakko thread, it is pretty simple stuff...I am not going into a St Louis Blues thread to talk about my Hawks or discredit their team...it is the same thing and why it isn't allowed there.
 

Dominance

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In the thread about Jack Hughes? Um yeah I don't think this should be a hit piece on one with the propping up of another. If you want to do that I would do it in the Kakko thread.

Kakko is 6'1" or 2" depending on who you talk to and checks in somewhere between 180 to 185.

Somehow he is more NHL ready because he is ready to survive puck battles over here at that size? You realize he is smaller than your average NHL player checking in at those numbers. Sure he will fill out but how am I am supposed to take that as a seriously huge advantage. Kakko is in for an eye opening experience, he is going to get blasted off the puck a lot next year as well. That is the reality of playing NA hockey where you have more puck battles and while I do like the power upside to his game. He has significantly less power upside in this draft than Cozens or Dach for instance.

Say he packs on 20 lbs, Kakko basically becomes league average in terms of size. Yes he plays with power and through the body but he isn't going to be a physically overwhelming player in the league so those using those projections are kind of out to lunch in my opinion. That is Jonathan Toews essentially. Now yes we know he battles and can play in the trenches but I feel like this narrative is becoming that Kakko can take absurd amounts of contact and play through it. No even the big puck battlers his projected size Bergeron, Larkin, Toews play that way all they time, they pick spots because you don't survive in this league playing power hockey all the time at that size.

Jack Hughes isn't going to play a power game. That isn't who he is, so those people that want to talk about it, well it seems a strange thing to do. Nobody from this draft class is going to play the game as fast as Hughes can either so there wouldn't be much joy if that is all I wanted to bounce around each one of these draft eligible guys threads and say it over and over either. I am bothered because if we are having the physical maturity and heavy game argument I don't think he is the guy we should be having it with. That would be Dach. Heck I think Podkolzin has more power projection to his game in terms of the top 10 guys this year from Europe as well.
I don’t know much about Kakko, to be honest with you. I’m not taking any side on that debate, and I agree with everything you said about him and Hughes above.

My post was about pointing out the absurdity of arguing that criticism doesn’t belong in a prospect thread, and pointing out that every single top prospect is compared to other guys.

Take the few points. that I have brought up in this thread. “I question if he projects as a centre, and I wonder if that will affect his value at the draft”; valid criticism. “For someone of his hype, it has to be concerning that he has not demonstrated statistical progression playing in the same league as last year, and that he is - both in stats and playstyle - highly comparable to a guy who didn’t even go top-5, in Keller”; valid criticism.

Pointing out how his closest competitor is doing extremely well in a more challenging situation is also valid, and if such a comment is attacked, it’s reasonable that a debate begins, and thus you have the current state of this thread.

If such comments don’t please you, that’s just too bad, honestly.
 

Dominance

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read the post above mine from Zetterberg..not sure what you are having trouble with...this is a Jack Hughes thread...period...coming in and talking about scouting reports from Kakko and pimping up Kakko in this thread doesn't belong...it is a simple as that..if you want to talk about Kakko go to his own thread or create a Hughes vs Kakko thread, it is pretty simple stuff...I am not going into a St Louis Blues thread to talk about my Hawks or discredit their team...it is the same thing and why it isn't allowed there.
Unfortunately, that’s just not the way it works. You have to understand just how absurd you look, decrying the crime of bringing up rivals in a player’s thread as if it’s a phenomen never previously seen.

It happens EVERYWHERE. And, again, especially in the thread of the presumptive top pick, to whom all other prospects are naturally compared. Honestly, just take it as a compliment, or something.
 

Dominance

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A lot of posters are hellbent on the idea Kakko is challenging Hughes for #1 overall. I don't see it. In fact, I don't think he's a sure bet to go #2. The concept that appears lost on a lot of people is that even if Hughes isn't a generational, McDavidesque prospect he's still #1 in this draft.
Agreed. But “your side”, if not you yourself, did the exact same thing in 2015 with Eichel! We’ve almost all done it at some time. If you have faith in your guy, people trying to drag him down or saying another is better shouldn’t bother you.
 

FrankGallagher

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Would be weird to not have comparison to other top prospects. I do think there are some extremely uninformed fanboys pushing Kakko over Hughes, but there are also some that are making pretty legitimate arguments. I think it is clearly Hughes over Kakko but the conversation is still worth having. On the other side there are fanboys who will not acknowledge that there are any flaws in Hughes game. There is no generational prospect in this draft, every single player has holes. Will be interesting to evaluate Hughes, Kakko, and Podkolzin (if he's there) against the same level of competition at the World Juniors coming up. There is a lot of season left and I don't think what will happen at the top in June is 100% locked in, though Hughes skating and creativity are on a level he will be hard to catch.
 
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AmericanDream

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Unfortunately, that’s just not the way it works. You have to understand just how absurd you look, decrying the crime of bringing up rivals in a player’s thread as if it’s a phenomen never previously seen.

It happens EVERYWHERE. And, again, especially in the thread of the presumptive top pick, to whom all other prospects are naturally compared. Honestly, just take it as a compliment, or something.
no it actually isn't...I just pointed out not a single soul is in the Kakko thread pulling this shit. nobody. just insecure Kakko fans trying to come in and derail Hughes.

you keep talking like there should be no criticism here for Hughes...I never said that and if anything I said came off that way then it is incorrect. of course you can criticize a player, it is a message board, all for it. but what I am saying is those that are forcing a false narrative here by only showcasing the flaws of one player but not the other...it has been so biased and sad, and like Konk said eerily similar to Matthews and Laine with these narratives.

people for months have been coming in here trying to force their narratives that no other scouting service agrees with, Kakko is not better than Hughes..but some certain posters can't deal with it and are flat out trolling.

anybody can come in and say I have some concerns, fears, flaws etc with Hughes...all good, it is welcome...many of us will challenge and call it out right back..but leave Kakko out of it, he belongs nowhere in here nor does videos/scouting reports of Kakko...stay in his thread and pimp him to the hockey Gods all you like...
 
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