Burns and Karlsson VS Tavares and Matthews

[Peggy]

Matthews scored at a higher pace with tougher usage, and fewer minutes per game.

Matthews>>>Burns

This is why matthews is the most over rated player in the league

 

[zeke]

This is why matthews is the most over rated player in the league

This is why Matthews is the most underrated player in the league.

 

[glucker]

This is why matthews is the most over rated player in the league

What I like about this argument is that you provided reasoning and backed it up with facts.

 

[Peggy]

What I like about this argument is that you provided reasoning and backed it up with facts.

Do I need to point out how 2 Norris defensman scored more than a young centre? You should kind of know that on your own

 

[Peggy]

This is why Matthews is the most underrated player in the league.

Because people are saying he's better than 2 Norris winners who've scored more than Matthews?
What year did you decide to drop out of school?

 

[glucker]

Do I need to point out how 2 Norris defensman scored more than a young centre? You should kind of know that on your own

Do I need to point out to you that missing 20 games and playing injured for at least another 10 might impact your output?

Matthew’s ppg and p/60 crushes what Karlsson and Burns put up.

 

[Sojourn]

Do I need to point out to you that missing 20 games and playing injured for at least another 10 might impact your output?

Matthew’s ppg and p/60 crushes what Karlsson and Burns put up.

The playing injured argument really needs to go. This is the NHL, man. Players play injured. If he's healthy enough to play, he's healthy enough. Period. Do you think other good players in the league didn't deal with that too?

 

[Semantics]

This is going to be a fun poll to bump at the end of the season (just like most polls involving Leafs are).

There's only one spot for a dman on the PP, and even 5v5 they're both right handed. How on do people voting on this poll see this duo playing out as complementary? It makes no sense. Sure Burns can play a forward spot on the PP, but at the end of the day there are only so many points and offensive opportunities available and now they're going to be divided up.

To a certain extent that's true with Tavares/Matthews too, but centers play fewer minutes than d-men, ergo it's easier to still give both of them lots of offensive chances. There's a lot of precedent for that with e.g. Crosby/Malkin, or even Tavares/Barzal. Not much precedent for two dmen who play the same side putting up big numbers, especially not in the 4 forward PP era.

The votes here really expose how unsophisticated most people's thinking is about the game.

 

[Sojourn]

How is there only one spot for a defenseman on the PP?

 

[Semantics]

How is there only one spot for a defenseman on the PP?

Did you just come out of a coma...

Almost no NHL team runs a 3-2 PP any more.

Edit: also, the idea of running a 3-2 PP with two D that shoot the same way is laughable. Even if they're the two best PP quarterbacks in the league, that PP is going to underperform compared to other configurations.

 

[Sojourn]

Did you just come out of a coma...

Almost no NHL team runs a 3-2 PP any more.

You just contradicted yourself there. If almost no NHL team runs a 3-2 PP anymore, at least some do.

How many teams have two offensive defensemen like Burns and Karlsson?

Maybe I did come out of a coma, but when I fell into it there were more logical arguments than "This is how I see the NHL PP right now, so this is what San Jose is limited to." That makes no sense, and you should be able to see that.

 

[Peggy]

Do I need to point out to you that missing 20 games and playing injured for at least another 10 might impact your output?

Matthew’s ppg and p/60 crushes what Karlsson and Burns put up.

Karlsson wss injured too. What's you're point
These are defensman who score more than Matthews
What are you trying to argue with this p/60
Karlsson and burns are bettrr at their position than Matthews is at his
In the playoffs and the regular season
Injured or healthy
Even an injured karlsson has done better than matthews

You clearly have a strong bias for matthees you can't looks it objectively

 

[Semantics]

You just contradicted yourself there. If almost no NHL team runs a 3-2 PP anymore, at least some do.

How many teams have two offensive defensemen like Burns and Karlsson?

Maybe I did come out of a coma, but when I fell into it there were more logical arguments than "This is how I see the NHL PP right now, so this is what San Jose is limited to." That makes no sense, and you should be able to see that.

It's not about what teams are doing, it's about why they're doing it. There's plenty of research and analysis explaining why a) four forwards on the PP is superior, and b) you want both points manned by players on their strong side.

 

[Sojourn]

Karlsson wss injured too. What's you're point
These are defensman who score more than Matthews
What are you trying to argue with this p/60
Karlsson and burns are bettrr at their position than Matthews is at his
In the playoffs and the regular season
Injured or healthy
Even an injured karlsson has done better than matthews

You clearly have a strong bias for matthees you can't looks it objectively

The p/60 argument is one made to prop up Matthews lately. It's the idea that he's better than other players who produce more, because Matthews puts up more points on a per minute basis at even strength.

It's a sketchy argument, and one that is made because he lacks the points to actually compare favorably with the players he gets compared to.

 

[Sojourn]

It's not about what teams are doing, it's about why they're doing it. There's plenty of research and analysis explaining why a) four forwards on the PP is superior, and b) you want both points manned by players on their strong side.

Research that includes teams having access to two offensive defensemen like Karlsson and Burns, right?

You're imposing restrictions on San Jose that don't exist. If San Jose wants to get them both out there, they can. If they want to build their PP around the capabilities of two of the very best offensive blue line talents in the league, they can. Your limitations have no relevance.

San Jose's PP could very well end up being anomalous in the way it works, compared to the rest of the league, and it should really surprise no one. When you can throw two PPG defensemen onto the ice, you have the (potential) ability to do things that other teams might not.

 

[nucks88]

Matthews and Tavares because until Karlsson signs a long term extension as of right now the Sharks will only have him for 1 year, where as the Leafs have them for the long term future.

I must have missed the long term contract that Matthews signed...

 

[Peggy]

The p/60 argument is one made to prop up Matthews lately. It's the idea that he's better than other players who produce more, because Matthews puts up more points on a per minute basis at even strength.

It's a sketchy argument, and one that is made because he lacks the points to actually compare favorably with the players he gets compared to.

Oh I know why he's doing it. Hoping(doubtfully) he can answer that on his own

I wonder if they know that their are players with bettrr p/60 than others, But once you give them same playing tome.under the same roles is completely diminished

 

[Semantics]

You just contradicted yourself there. If almost no NHL team runs a 3-2 PP anymore, at least some do.

How many teams have two offensive defensemen like Burns and Karlsson?

Maybe I did come out of a coma, but when I fell into it there were more logical arguments than "This is how I see the NHL PP right now, so this is what San Jose is limited to." That makes no sense, and you should be able to see that.

BTW, I presume that the Sharks *will* use both of them on the PP, but that Burns will play in a forward role at the half wall. He has a lot of experience at that anyway so it makes sense. But make no mistake, Karlsson will be the sole quarterback, the guy who's at the blueline most of the time distributing the puck, and thus he'll make plays and pick up assists that Burns would otherwise have done. Burns' production will therefore be cannibalized a bit. And lefty forward like Couture will likely be the one dropping back to cover the left point on the PP as needed.

You could say the same of Matthews and Tavares at least on the PP, but Matthews had shitty PP production anyway, I'm not sure his PP numbers can get any worse.

 

[Sojourn]

BTW, I presume that the Sharks *will* use both of them on the PP, but that Burns will play in a forward role at the half wall. He has a lot of experience at that anyway so it makes sense. But make no mistake, Karlsson will be the sole quarterback, the guy who's at the blueline most of the time distributing the puck, and thus he'll make plays and pick up assists that Burns would otherwise have done. Burns' production will therefore be cannibalized a bit. And lefty forward like Couture will likely be the one dropping back to cover the left point on the PP as needed.

I'm not convinced that will be the case. In fact, I could just as easily see Burns playing the point, and Karlsson being free to roam around and go where he's needed and create offense. The reason I say that, is it's exactly what Anaheim did when they had Pronger and Niedermayer. It was massively effective. It worked because Niedermayer had serious hockey smarts, and the ability to get where ever he needed to be. And make no mistake, when it was to Anaheim's benefit to have both of them at the point, that's what happened. It was a very versatile PP that was dangerous in large part because it was so flexible.

Karlsson's mobility and offensive IQ is such that I don't see any reason he needs to be stationed at the blue line. Maybe that's where San Jose will want him, and maybe that's when the PP works best, but I don't think it's inevitable that he's locked at the point.

That's my point. San Jose could potentially do something unusual with their PP, because they have an unusual advantage. This is an opportunity for them to get creative, and let the talent shine through.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I must have missed the long term contract that Matthews signed...

I'm not worried about anything because Matthews will soon sign his next contract with the Leafs.

 

[Sojourn]

Oh I know why he's doing it. Hoping(doubtfully) he can answer that on his own

I wonder if they know that their are players with bettrr p/60 than others, But once you give them same playing tome.under the same roles is completely diminished

I've tried to make that argument, but it all comes down to having faith that Matthews will be the exception.

And maybe he will. I just don't expect it. I don't think he can maintain those numbers playing the kind of minutes a Kopitar, a McDavid, or a Getzlaf does.

 

[IPS]

Research that includes teams having access to two offensive defensemen like Karlsson and Burns, right?

You're imposing restrictions on San Jose that don't exist. If San Jose wants to get them both out there, they can. If they want to build their PP around the capabilities of two of the very best offensive blue line talents in the league, they can. Your limitations have no relevance.

San Jose's PP could very well end up being anomalous in the way it works, compared to the rest of the league, and it should really surprise no one. When you can throw two PPG defensemen onto the ice, you have the (potential) ability to do things that other teams might not.

We actually saw a very similar thing in Montreal when they ran Subban and Markov.

Whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, having 2 long-range bombers in Karlsson and Burns is going to have diminishing returns, much like how it would have diminishing returns if you ran a PP with Laine and Stamkos, or Kane and Marner. They both do their best work from the same spot.

This isn't to say that Burrns won't work well in an alternative position, but it'll certainly be some adjustment on the Shark's part.

Diversity of threats is important on the PP. Look at Pittsburgh's since they got Kessel. They have his passing threat on the half-wall, Malkin's one-timer threat, and Sid down low.

 

[IPS]

Did you just come out of a coma...

Almost no NHL team runs a 3-2 PP any more.

Edit: also, the idea of running a 3-2 PP with two D that shoot the same way is laughable. Even if they're the two best PP quarterbacks in the league, that PP is going to underperform compared to other configurations.

Pretty much every top PP nowadays runs the 1-3-1. San Jose will definitely be going against the grain with their composition.

 

[Peggy]

I've tried to make that argument, but it all comes down to having faith that Matthews will be the exception.

And maybe he will. I just don't expect it. I don't think he can maintain those numbers playing the kind of minutes a Kopitar, a McDavid, or a Getzlaf does.

I'm sure he'll be great, but he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt for something he hasn't accomplished
Matthews wasn't better in his rookie and he wasn't better last year so as of right now he has yet be bettrr which means he's not bettrr lol

Except they don't know that

 

[Sojourn]

We actually saw a very similar thing in Montreal when they ran Subban and Markov.

Whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, having 2 long-range bombers in Karlsson and Burns is going to have diminishing effects, much like how it would have diminishing effects if you ran a PP with Laine and Stamkos. They both do their best work from the same spot.

This isn't to say that Burrns won't work well in an alternative position, but it'll certainly be some adjustment on the Shark's part.

Diversity of threats is important on the PP. Look at Pittsburgh's since they got Kessel. They have his passing threat on the half-wall, Malkin's one-timer threat, and Sid down low.

Your mistake is in assuming someone like Karlsson is just a long range bomber.

You're right, diversity of threats is important. Which is exactly my point. A player like Karlsson is a very diverse player. He isn't offensively limited to a single role. My personal feeling is that Karlsson is the most versatile offensive talent on the blue line in the entire NHL. He's a threat from any spot on the ice in the offensive zone, and his mobility (with and without the puck) is such that he can get to any spot on the ice very quickly.