Burns and Karlsson VS Tavares and Matthews

[glucker]

A lot of people do as well.

It’s amazing what signing with the Leafs can do to your talent level.

 

[Sol]

It’s amazing what signing with the Leafs can do to your talent level.

He wasn't top ten before being with the leafs and certainly not now. Unless you plan on taking out better centers.

 

[glucker]

He wasn't top ten before being with the leafs and certainly not now. Unless you plan on taking out better centers.

List these better centres.

 

[Sam Spade]

List these better centres.

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Kuznetsov
Barkov
Seguin

Then Tavares is in there with Matthews, Stamkos, Backstrom and Couturier.

I am basing this on every aspect of the game, not just points. I really don't dislike Tavares or the Leafs but if I'm starting a team I take the guys I listed first.

That being said, Tavares is gonna have a great season and probably post career highs.

 

[LeafsNation75]

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Kuznetsov
Barkov
Seguin

Then Tavares is in there with Matthews, Stamkos, Backstrom and Couturier.

I am basing this on every aspect of the game, not just points. I really don't dislike Tavares or the Leafs but if I'm starting a team I take the guys I listed first.

That being said, Tavares is gonna have a great season and probably post career highs.

Personally I would rank Tavares ahead of Kuznetsov.

 

[Sam Spade]

Personally I would rank Tavares ahead of Kuznetsov.

Fair, but I was trying to base it on everything and that post-season was pretty impressive, as I am sure Tavares' will be next April.

 

[Snippit]

Who? HFBoards posters? Oh boy, the clout that carries is serious business!

Meanwhile, paid professionals have only 5 C's ahead of Tavares going into the season:

Top 100 NHL Players of 2018–19: The Full List - Sportsnet.ca

Paid professionals also think Toews is one of the 100 best players ever, and Malkin isn't.

 

[Sojourn]

The 70 point argument to bring Matthews down is one of the stupidest things I’ve seen on HF lately. 69 as a rookie, 63 as a sophomore in an injury riddled season while surpassing a point per game pace. Yet the greatest argument people seem to have against him is that he hasn’t hit 70 even though it’s completely arbitrary.

I agree with you.

But I also think calling him a PPG player is just as inaccurate. At least, until he can show he can accomplish that in a full season.

 

[Sojourn]

Paid professionals also think Toews is one of the 100 best players ever, and Malkin isn't.

What people forget is that those paid professionals? They're media.

As much as we'd like to pretend that there is no agenda there, I don't think we can really say that's the case. Like any form of media, it's their goal to get attention, and negative attention works just as well as positive attention. They want talking points.

 

[MoreMogilny]

I agree with you.

But I also think calling him a PPG player is just as inaccurate. At least, until he can show he can accomplish that in a full season.

Also agree, which is why I make sure to use “point per game pace”.

I really dislike both sides that can’t just use honest statistics/arguments.

 

[Sojourn]

Also agree, which is why I make sure to use “point per game pace”.

I really dislike both sides that can’t just use honest statistics/arguments.

Yeah, that's a peeve of mine.

As I said, I'm not keen on calling him a PPG player just yet, but even still, that would have been difficult with 20 games left but not unrealistically so. I think it's doable, which is why I think he could accomplish that this next season. I'm just not going to call him that yet, because I feel a player has to get really close to playing a full season. The 70-point argument is just unrealistic. He would have needed to fall off a cliff, and we might be talking about a literal one here, for him to not hit that 70-point mark with 20 games left. It's just stupid.

If he had fallen back to his pace as a rookie, he still surpasses that number easily. That argument needs to end. It's not something he needs to show he can accomplish. Not to me, at any rate.

 

[Sol]

Personally I would rank Tavares ahead of Kuznetsov.

His list is very good I'd also add Stamkos ahead of him as well.

 

[LeafsNation75]

What people forget is that those paid professionals? They're media.

As much as we'd like to pretend that there is no agenda there, I don't think we can really say that's the case. Like any form of media, it's their goal to get attention, and negative attention works just as well as positive attention. They want talking points.

So for those who will not like where TSN has Auston Matthews and John Tavares ranked for their annual top 50 players list, can you really say they are pandering to the Leafs fans even though Toronto is their largest market? If people don't agree where they are listed it's one thing. However history also shows they always ranked Phil Kessel in the mid 30's during his time in Toronto, even though he had some seasons of 80 and 82 points and you think that should have at least got him ranked between 15-20. So that at least showed how TSN does not always rank Leafs players very high despite playing in Toronto.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So what does it matter?

It’s the exact same thing, for example, if Matthews had scored 70 points last season, people saying “well he hasn’t even hit 71 points yet”

It’s completely stupid.

Even if Matthews had got 79 points in his rookie season I bet those same people would say "Well he hasn't hit 80 points yet."

I understand that for a player of Matthews caliber to be considered among the elite centres he needs to hit a lot of high numbers in points. However I also think part of the reason a lot of people always bring up him not getting 70 points even though he had 69 as a rookie and 40 goals that season, is because he played in Toronto. If he was drafted by the Coyotes and put up the exact same numbers we saw him get as a rookie would these same people care that he didn't get 70 points as a rookie?

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Even if Matthews had got 79 points in his rookie season I bet those same people would say "Well he hasn't hit 80 points yet."

I understand that for a player of Matthews caliber to be considered among the elite centres he needs to hit a lot of high numbers in points. However I also think part of the reason a lot of people always bring up him not getting 70 points even though he had 69 as a rookie and 40 goals that season, is because he played in Toronto. If he was drafted by the Coyotes and put up the exact same numbers we saw him get as a rookie would these same people care that he didn't get 70 points as a rookie?

Ehh, that just comes with playing for the Leafs. The negativity from some people vs. the positivity from a very vocal fanbase and sports media outlets in Canada (TSN/SN). As a non-Leafs fan in Canada, it used to bother me how much coverage the leafs get (Did you know Matthews smiled in the practice? Tavares took a shower today too.) but it is what it is. Not those guys' fault.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Ehh, that just comes with playing for the Leafs. The negativity from some people vs. the positivity from a very vocal fanbase and sports media outlets in Canada (TSN/SN). As a non-Leafs fan in Canada, it used to bother me how much coverage the leafs get (Did you know Matthews smiled in the practice? Tavares took a shower today too.) but it is what it is. Not those guys' fault.

You have to admit there are times when the Leafs do get negative attention from TSN or Sportsnet, at least prior to 2017 when they started becoming a winning franchise once again. Now some of that was warranted, however even today I think some commentators at least from Sportsnet still take shots at them. For example last season when they lost to the Canucks in a shootout Jim Hughson said "There's nothing better on a Saturday night than defeating the Maple Leafs." Keep in mind he is supposed to be the lead commentator for Hockey Night in Canada and have no biases, even though Leafs fans know he's always been a pro Canucks person.

 

[22FUTON9]

I don’t like the leafs at all but I honestly think Tavares’s stock really went down the moment he became a maple leaf lol

 

[bobholly39]

I really, really like Tavares - and I could see him have a fantastic year in Toronto.

But imo Karlsson is a game changer. Him, Crosby and McDavid are the 3 biggest game changers in the world atm (Malkin slightly behind). If he has a season up to par - i think he alone makes the Sharks a top 2-3 cup favorite if not more. So short of injuries or him somehow having a really bad year - it's going to be the SJ duo.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Karlsson and burns. Not close. Hell, they might outscore the leafs duo.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Who? HFBoards posters? Oh boy, the clout that carries is serious business!

Meanwhile, paid professionals have only 5 C's ahead of Tavares going into the season:

Top 100 NHL Players of 2018–19: The Full List - Sportsnet.ca

I hope you remember this list and feel the same way about how much of an authority those "paid professionals" are when someone argues that Mark Scheifele and Nathan MacKinnon are better than Auston Matthews.

Or are these lists only the be-all when they favor the player you're arguing for?

 

[IPS]

I hope you remember this list and feel the same way about how much of an authority those "paid professionals" are when someone argues that Mark Scheifele and Nathan MacKinnon are better than Auston Matthews.

Or are these lists only the be-all when they favor the player you're arguing for?

Oh god no. Hell I'd have Scheifele ahead of Ovechkin and maybe even Kucherov depending on how much his production will come down. Matthews I'd make the same case for too. Mackinnon is definitely high but he was on pace to win the Art Ross before he got hurt, so he'll have big hype no doubt. Simple difference of opinion doesn't even have all those players ranked that far apart either, the list will always be interchangeable.

I understand you - as a Pens fan - probably don't have the highest opinion of paid professionals seeing as Malkin was excluded from a top-100 players of all time list, but their opinions are far more reasonable than what you read on here.

 

[glucker]

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Kuznetsov
Barkov
Seguin

Then Tavares is in there with Matthews, Stamkos, Backstrom and Couturier.

I am basing this on every aspect of the game, not just points. I really don't dislike Tavares or the Leafs but if I'm starting a team I take the guys I listed first.

That being said, Tavares is gonna have a great season and probably post career highs.

I’d think it’d be more along the lines of
Crosby
McDavid
Bergeron
Malkin
Tavares
Kopitar
Scheifele
Stamkos
Barkov
Mackinnon


But to be fair, I think these ordered lists are kind of dumb, because you have guys that are pretty close together.

Gotta go with tiered lists, imo.
T1 being McDavid/Crosby
T2 is Malkin/Bergeron
T3 is JT/Kopitar
T4 is Stamkos, Sheifele,Barkov, Mackinnon, Matthews, Seguin, Kuznetsov, etc.

And within those tiers guys are pretty interchangeable .

 

[glucker]

Who? HFBoards posters? Oh boy, the clout that carries is serious business!

Meanwhile, paid professionals have only 5 C's ahead of Tavares going into the season:

Top 100 NHL Players of 2018–19: The Full List - Sportsnet.ca

Pretty sure HFboards has him voted 3OA last February.

What changed since then?

 

[glucker]

Burns is the 2/3 highest scoring dman of his time

Matthews has not passed him yet. Matthews is very clearly the worst of the four as of today, very very clearly

Matthews scored at a higher pace with tougher usage, and fewer minutes per game.

Matthews>>>Burns

 

[Peggy]

I think dominant centres are more important and dominate more than dominant defenders do. For that reason, I take the Leafs duo.

Karlsson is the best player in the group though and would be my pick for who will have the best season of the four. Guy could go offffffffff this year.

Karlson carried Ottawa in the playoffs 2 years ago
The same year McDavid was in the playoffs and got elimated in the 2nd round where Ottawa made it to the ecf