Burke created this team, and Nonis is destroying or fixing it (part 2)?

[Faltorvo]

In hindsight knowing that MLSE told JFj they would not allow a rebuild, perhaps the interview was like this?

MLSE: We want to make the playoffs this year!
Burke: No problem, I'll sign a couple defenders and we'll be fine.
MLSE: JFj said we need to tear it down and rebuild.
Burke: I'm smarter and older, it doesn't have to take 5 years.
MLSE: So playoffs?
Burke: Did you see my Cup win in Anaheim?

Burke to media: I have full control of the team and complete authority to make any changes I want.

now you see, here is someone who gets it.

BB is lawyer , they speak in legalese , where words and meaning of phrase can hold very different interpretations to them.

ownership sets out goals and overall mandates.

BB had 100% autonomy in how to reach those goals and priority mandates.

 

[Faltorvo]

Management was way ahead on the landscape of the game changing and had a plan to address it.

Management was overruled by ownership wanting to keep milking the playoff revenue as long as possible.

Management was then used as a scapegoat, blamed and shown the door.

one has to wonder BC , how long had the idea of selling off mlse was brewing with the teachers.

even "just" first round appearances raises the resale value.

 

[Duffman955]

If we finish out of the playoffs, I never want to see Nonis or Carlyle anywhere near the Leafs organization.

They were given more than enough resources to make a good team.

 

[ECanuck]

That is the only solution in my opinion.....Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, Bernier and Kessel they are our true core along with a couple of other prospects. The rest are expendable.....I really believe that we need to get rid of Dion asap as he is the the head of the snake so to speak. Poster boy for a flawed rebuild by Burke.

You have eyes my friend.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I agree but time isn't on our side when you take into account part of our core may be past their prime 2-3 seasons from now .

Lupul isn't getting any better and neither is DP and do we want to waste 2-3 of Kessel's prime years while we now go to a build slow approach ? Burke tried to accelerate our rebuild and now we're left with trying to elevate a flawed core before they start to slide .

There's no turning back unless we decide to deal DP/Lupul among others and hope they can net us quality prospects and 1st rd picks .

I forget to mention Lupul. I advocated him for to be traded all season long on the trade board. Just like Lupul made CMac less valuable JVR has made Lupul less valuable. A guy like Lupul and put up great stats if he's get lots of offensive zone starts and powerplay time but if he isn't his stats plummet (and his value to the team) but his defensive game isn't good enough to play a secondary role.

Replacing Lupuls cap hit with an upgrade to the top of the D Group or a 2-way forward who can still chip in decent offensive numbers (Ladd, Marchand, Brown type of player) is what this teams needs more.

Dion is turning 29 next month. He still has another 3-5 years left in his prime. For those advocating moving out Dion, who do you suggest becomes our # 1 Dman? Even with the recent slide Dion is a huge reason we've even been in a playoff position all season. Good luck finding another workhorse Dman like him.

+- isn't everything but Dion and Gunnar (who is more like a # 4 Dman Phaneuf helps carry) are +14 and +13 on the season playing against the best competition. The closest Dman after that is Ranger at -2.

 

[Bomber0104]

If we finish out of the playoffs, I never want to see Nonis or Carlyle anywhere near the Leafs organization.

They were given more than enough resources to make a good team.

I don't know how much blame should be assigned to the coach of this team but you are right about Nonis.

We need to put as much distance as possible between this franchise and the whole Burke/Nonis circus show.

Management team, players, etc.

Everyone needs to go.

I honestly don't know how a single person in the Leafs organization can feel good about the state of this team. It's not like we have sure-thing prospects waiting to save the day.

This is pretty much the final product.

Clear the slate and start again.

 

[Faltorvo]

Dion is not a top D man in fact he is a big part of the issue.....

WE lack leadership from our core group and without it we go no where.....you build around solid structure not crumbing structure...as we have currently. What do the group of players I mention all have in common.....the teams that drafted them all found them wanting....this is an issue and it is seen by the results that this group is producing.

My view is not over dramatic but a realistic view point....

Why do we get out played almost every game.....even when this group that I mention are on the ice together. Why?

No leadership=no results.

so if the "core of a team consists of 8/9 guys?

can we name 1 true contender who's core does not have atleast 5/6 own drafted/developed players?

 

[Killion]

one has to wonder BC , how long had the idea of selling off mlse was brewing with the teachers.

even "just" first round appearances raises the resale value.

Ya, I dont know about that Conspiracy Theory Faltorvo, a tad implausible when your looking at a well north of $1B sale of all of the assets..... but tell ya what? If the Leafs did have their act together & we were a serious Cup threat going deep, cause a lot of damage to the leagues artificial economic model with the Cap linked to league wide revenues. If the Leafs, economic giant & leader of the pack, another planet really, the Rolls Royce of the fleet of 30 was running on all cylinders going to the semi's & finals, the Cap Ceiling & Basement would rise up to such heights as to drown the bottom feeders with only maybe 6-8 other teams being able to begin reaching for & hitting the Cap Ceiling. Wreak havoc in Florida, the Southwest, virtually everywhere but for Manhattan, Chicago, Boston & Philadelphia, few other choice locales.... Now theres a Conspiracy Theory for ya. MLSE deliberately tanking in order to preserve the integrity & sanctity of the very league itself. Huh?.... thats what I like to believe. See, we could easily win Cups but in doing so, wipe em' all out. Then what?

 

[Parkdale]

That is the only solution in my opinion.....Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, Bernier and Kessel they are our true core along with a couple of other prospects. The rest are expendable.....I really believe that we need to get rid of Dion asap as he is the the head of the snake so to speak. Poster boy for a flawed rebuild by Burke.

I find it a bit scary when Gardiner is mentioned as expendable (by others). Definitely move Phaneuf before either of the two youngsters on D.

 

[ECanuck]

When you are imploding for the third season in a row with the same players then it's pretty clear what to do. Things are not in harmony mentally with this team. It shows on the ice. They crumble, very little comradery on the ice.

Captain, coach need to be removed with some old players as well.

 

[Faltorvo]

Ya, I dont know about that Conspiracy Theory Faltorvo, a tad implausible when your looking at a well north of $1B sale of all of the assets..... but tell ya what? If the Leafs did have their act together & we were a serious Cup threat going deep, cause a lot of damage to the leagues artificial economic model with the Cap linked to league wide revenues. If the Leafs, economic giant & leader of the pack, another planet really, the Rolls Royce of the fleet of 30 was running on all cylinders going to the semi's & finals, the Cap Ceiling & Basement would rise up to such heights as to drown the bottom feeders with only maybe 6-8 other teams being able to begin reaching for & hitting the Cap Ceiling. Wreak havoc in Florida, the Southwest, virtually everywhere but for Manhattan, Chicago, Boston & Philadelphia, few other choice locales.... Now theres a Conspiracy Theory for ya. MLSE deliberately tanking in order to preserve the integrity & sanctity of the very league itself. Huh?.... thats what I like to believe. See, we could easily win Cups but in doing so, wipe em' all out. Then what?

lmao, Killion your just a big greeny

lets add this up shall we, the teams core was getting old, mats, kabber,mcCabe yada yada

just tickling the edges of being in or out of a PO spot and the talk is that MLSE is going to go to market

and you think it's conspiracy theory on my part that ownership told jfj jr that blowing this thing up was not a option?

doing whatever has to be done to keep this team in ANY playoff position for profits and optics/PR, was not mandated?

I, ahhhh ummm,hrmmm, wow.


oh my bad, you meant financial drowning , not global warming. (smirk)

 

[Ricky Bobby]

so if the "core of a team consists of 8/9 guys?

can we name 1 true contender who's core does not have atleast 5/6 own drafted/developed players?

San Jose had Heatley, Thornton, Boyle, Niemi were all significant pieces of their core.

Boston had there team built around Chara, Savard and Thomas not to long ago until these guys start passing off the torch to Bergeron, Krejci and even late developer Seidenberg.

Even Belfour, Sundin, McCabe, Tucker, Roberts, Mogilny weren't drafted as Leafs. Yet they were part of what was once a contender.

Top talent is top talent. I could care less where it comes from.

Do we need to have more impact players? Absolutely! What we don't need to get sentimental about is players like Clarkson, Lupul, Franson, Gleason, Gunnarson who are support players or simply overpaid (or soon to be). These are the players to ship out to gain assets. Just like Versteeg was and Grabo, CMac were. These calibar of players can always be found or prospects like Percy, Finn, Gautheir one day become.

Phaneuf isn't the problem. Us not having a # 2 Dman to form a good 2nd pair is the problem but Rielly, Gardiner will hopefully get there. JVR, Kessel starting their careers with other teams isn't the problem! Them along with Bozak is what carried this team offensively. Bernier starting his career with another team isn't the problem. Bernier currently being injured is the problem.

We are starting to develop our own homegrown talent but that takes time but guys like Kadri + Rielly and other names like Finn, Percy (Versteeg pick he was acquired with) are getting there. Now I believe we need to get some value for guys like Lupul and Gunnarson to add to that core. Will it make us weaker short term? Yes! But these players are replaceable. Just like CMac, Versteeg, Grabo, White, Stajan, Antropov were.

 

[Faltorvo]

San Jose had Heatley, Thornton, Boyle, Niemi were all significant pieces of their core.

Boston had there team built around Chara, Savard and Thomas not to long ago until these guys start passing off the torch to Bergeron, Krejci and even late developer Seidenberg.

Even Belfour, Sundin, McCabe, Tucker, Roberts, Mogilny weren't drafted as Leafs. Yet they were part of what was once a contender.

Top talent is top talent. I could care less where it comes from.

Do we need to have more impact players? Absolutely! What we don't need to get sentimental about is players like Clarkson, Lupul, Franson, Gleason, Gunnarson who are support players or simply overpaid (or soon to be). These are the players to ship out to gain assets. Just like Versteeg was and Grabo, CMac were. These calibar of players can always be found or prospects like Percy, Finn, Gautheir one day become.

Phaneuf isn't the problem. Us not having a # 2 Dman to form a good 2nd pair is the problem but Rielly, Gardiner will hopefully get there. JVR, Kessel starting their careers with other teams isn't the problem! Them along with Bozak is what carried this team offensively. Bernier starting his career with another team isn't the problem. Bernier currently being injured is the problem.

well, I'm just a simple old fella RB , I'm the type of guy that looks around the league, sees what the norms are, the common denominators and say to myself, "hey they might be onto something"

BB thought there was a different route, a 5 year plan , well I'm not seeing it.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

well, I'm just a simple old fella RB , I'm the type of guy that looks around the league, sees what the norms are, the common denominators and say to myself, "hey they might be onto something"

BB thought there was a different route, a 5 year plan , well I'm not seeing it.

I'm simply choosing to look forward and yes we aren't a contender yet.

But I see a place on this team for Phaneuf, Kessel, JVR, Bernier, Gardiner as contenders down the road regardless of us not drafting them.

I also see a place for Kadri, Rielly and some guys coming up the pipelines.

I'm all for us taking a step back but it doesn't involve moving out the above pieces. It involves dealing out the next group of players.

 

[ConnorTO]

If we finish out of the playoffs, I never want to see Nonis or Carlyle anywhere near the Leafs organization.

They were given more than enough resources to make a good team.

so 1-2 year max to see some results huh...


man this is why some Sports Organizations fail
no patience

 

[JackJ]

Only huge mistake from the summer was Clarkson. Along with a few assumptions that didn't pan out (D strength, Goaltending Duo).

Had Bernier not been injured we would be sitting comfortably in a playoff position. Should have acquired a backup at the deadline.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Timmy seems like the type of guy who would dump Randy and Nonis at the same time if we missed the playoffs.

 

[Leafidelity]

Timmy seems like the type of guy who would dump Randy and Nonis at the same time if we missed the playoffs.

He's the wildcard in all this. He really has no loyalty to anyone in our management group and has been pretty hands on with the rest of MLSE.

 

[JimmyPower]

I find it a bit scary when Gardiner is mentioned as expendable (by others). Definitely move Phaneuf before either of the two youngsters on D.

Yup!

 

[BraveCanadian]

one has to wonder BC , how long had the idea of selling off mlse was brewing with the teachers.

even "just" first round appearances raises the resale value.

Perhaps, but the thing about investors these days is they are so focused on the short term that those early returns would be of most interest to them in any case.

In any case hopefully someone around the Leafs will get the message eventually and blow this thing up good again.

You can't win with the current best players on the Leafs. You can't. This team needs an injection of heart something terrible.

Now that Nonis locked them up though..

 

[Cor]

The only reason I would be happy to see Dave Nonis fired, is because of Tim Leiweke.

He has brought in two brilliant General Managers to run the Raptors, and TFC. We miss the playoffs, he cleans house, and brings in his guys.

Tim Leiweke may not know much about the sports, but he has a very good eye for finding guys that have the proper vision to make successful teams, he proved that in LA, and he has already proven that in Toronto.

I think Paul Fenton or Jeff Gorton are two names I like. Especially Gorton, he is stuck behind Sather, who seems to stuck on not moving on. I am sure Dougie Gilmour, and Joe Niewendyk will receive some attention as well. Not really a fan of any of the "veteran" GM's out there, so I think a new GM will be our best option.

And then, I think Dineen would be an excellent choice as head coach. I still want Dale Hunter, but I don't think that he wants to come back to the NHL after the whole **** show the Caps were.

 

[this season rock]

Burke created this team, and Nonis has destroyed it

Ok last year it was Burke's team, he was let go right before the season started which means there was a plan that Burke made prior to season start, all Nonis had to do was to execute the plan - which went well (except last 11 minutes of it). We can say all we want about shorten season, but the point is we had a lot of things in place, which we don't right now - or it should said we haven't had this season:
- Slogan "burn the boats' (it's a part of the healthy culture where a team has a mission to accomplish and the slogan keeps maintain the focus)
- Identity (we truly believed we looked like a changed transformed from previous year physical team)
- Toughness (we had a character, swagger, stood up for each other)
- Accountability (a lot of Marlies call-ups were given a chance - I don't think had many this season)
- Chemistry (Bozak was back - the line got hot, after Olympic break - the chemistry was nowhere to be found, Kadri/Lupul - hasn't worked out that much these season; Bernier and Reimer 1a/1b to start the season off, 1b wasn't any longer there after a couple of games in December when team was slumping)

This season had no plan in place to execute. It's all on Nonis.

 

[ClarkieMac]

If Nonis is still the GM of this team after this season, I'm seriously going to be considering my allegiance to this team. I could never bring myself to cheer for anyone else, but I don't think I could follow them closely knowing they're just sticking to the trend of incompetence and mediocrity. This franchise needs a complete overhaul top to bottom. We just sat through a 5 year rebuild that had a predecessor of an absolute failure of a regime. The reality is that we started seeing the fruits of Burkes rebuild last season (whether or not the 48 games was just a mirage) and Nonis/Carlyle pissed it all away. Judging by what Leiwike's done with the other teams, I think he sees what we all see as well and drastic changes will be made.

 

[achtungbaby]

The only reason I would be happy to see Dave Nonis fired, is because of Tim Leiweke.

He has brought in two brilliant General Managers to run the Raptors, and TFC. We miss the playoffs, he cleans house, and brings in his guys.

Tim Leiweke may not know much about the sports, but he has a very good eye for finding guys that have the proper vision to make successful teams, he proved that in LA, and he has already proven that in Toronto.

I think Paul Fenton or Jeff Gorton are two names I like. Especially Gorton, he is stuck behind Sather, who seems to stuck on not moving on. I am sure Dougie Gilmour, and Joe Niewendyk will receive some attention as well. Not really a fan of any of the "veteran" GM's out there, so I think a new GM will be our best option.

And then, I think Dineen would be an excellent choice as head coach. I still want Dale Hunter, but I don't think that he wants to come back to the NHL after the whole **** show the Caps were.

Of course, we also said that about Burke, Colangelo, and AA.

 

[Peasy]

I don't see how you can not blame both of them... Burke rushed this team and created this terrible core of players that will accomplish next to nothing, and Nonis hasn't made it any better by signing Clarkson and trading away 2nds like its nothing.