Burke created this team, and Nonis is destroying or fixing it (part 2)?

[JackJ]

Life is all about timing and both Burke and Nonis had/have terrible timing in Toronto. It wasn't Burke's fault the original team was so ****, just like it isn't Nonis' fault we've regressed back to ****.

Not entirely true. I'm pleased with his offseason decisions (minus Clarkson) but he didn't address the D, which is our greatest weaknesses. When Franson and Fraser were a solid pairing we still needed a top four. Now we need a few.

 

[Mess]

Life is all about timing and both Burke and Nonis had/have terrible timing in Toronto. It wasn't Burke's fault the original team was so ****, just like it isn't Nonis' fault we've regressed back to ****.

Agreed 1000% about timing, except for the missed opportunity that occurred because the Burke inherited team was crap.

Flash back to previous GM JFJ fired. "Clearing the slate" an ownership directive designed to take the team to the bottom as it cleaned out its vets and a reset button pushed.

Interim GM Fletcher set the team up with an aging Cujo and Justin Pogge in net in hopes of landing top picks beginning with that season and it resulted in Luke Schenn to begin. Destined to take future runs at Tavaras or Duchene or Seguin etc etc while spending a few rebuilding season at the bottom of the standings. The table was set perfectly to begin building a young core through future drafts upon.

It was impatience about undertaking a draft rebuild in TO, that saw high picks flying out the door and big money spent on veteran additions when BB hit the ground running trying to shortcut the process of the team he inherited.

This is the origin of Leafs problems today.

 

[The CyNick]

The one that keeps giving the puck away when trying to be the next sidney crosby!!! The one that only scores consistently when hes playing vs other teams 3rd lines. The one that got a chance on the top line and showed how elite he is by doing sh** all lol

Holland on the second line was playing great, line was producing. Now hes playing 4th line 4 minutes a game...Kadri hasnt consistantly looked good anywhere yet! I liek Carlyle but hes dissapointed me this year!!!

through all your points at this response, I unfortunately watch almost every Leafs game and I comment on what I see!!

No shame in just being wrong

 

[The CyNick]

Except for the missed opportunity that occurred because the Burke inherited team was crap.

Previous GM fired. "Clearing the slate" an ownership directive designed to take the team to the bottom as it cleaned out its vets.

Fletcher set the team up with an aging Cujo and Justin Pogge in net in hopes of landing top picks beginning with that season and it resulted in Luke Schenn. Destined to take future runs at Tavaras or Duchene or Seguin etc etc.

It was impatience about undertaking a draft rebuild in TO, that saw high picks flying out the door and big money spent on veteran additions when BB hit the ground running trying to shortcut the process of the team he inherited.

This is the origin of Leafs problems today.

That's just wrong

Our problems started when management didn't see the landscape of the game drastically changing around them. And those couple years post lockout were just brutal for the long term health of the organization. Rebuild should have started there.

The Burke stuff to me is almost a wash. Dion for junk was a solid move. Kessel trade is what it is. Would we be better with Taylor Hall right now? I didn't like the Beauch signing, but we end up with Gards and Loops. Komi signing was bad, but didn't really hurt us long term.

Would have been nice to bottom out a couple years before we did.

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed 1000% about timing, except for the missed opportunity that occurred because the Burke inherited team was crap.

Flash back to previous GM JFJ fired. "Clearing the slate" an ownership directive designed to take the team to the bottom as it cleaned out its vets and a reset button pushed.

Interim GM Fletcher set the team up with an aging Cujo and Justin Pogge in net in hopes of landing top picks beginning with that season and it resulted in Luke Schenn to begin. Destined to take future runs at Tavaras or Duchene or Seguin etc etc while spend a few rebuilding season at the bottom of the standings.

It was impatience about undertaking a draft rebuild in TO, that saw high picks flying out the door and big money spent on veteran additions when BB hit the ground running trying to shortcut the process of the team he inherited.

This is the origin of Leafs problems today.

Fletcher made a bad situation worse but not entirely his fault. He had clearly lost his marbles and shouldn't have been brought in at all.

 

[Mess]

That's just wrong

Our problems started when management didn't see the landscape of the game drastically changing around them. And those couple years post lockout were just brutal for the long term health of the organization. Rebuild should have started there.

The Burke stuff to me is almost a wash. Dion for junk was a solid move. Kessel trade is what it is. Would we be better with Taylor Hall right now? I didn't like the Beauch signing, but we end up with Gards and Loops. Komi signing was bad, but didn't really hurt us long term.

Would have been nice to bottom out a couple years before we did.

Okay, but JFJ went to MLSE BOG and said the team needs a draft rebuild they refused as later came out in the papers. It cost JFJ his job by following ownership directive to re-sign the aging vets and keep going.

After JFJ was made the scapegoat for MLSE mistake of not allowing a draft rebuild coming out of the 2004 lockout and new Cap World CBA, they realized the error of their ways and ordered a "Clearing of the Slate" initiative. Fletcher tried to trade everything that wasn't nailed down with Ownership approval from the top, stop only by NTC contracts that allowed the inmates to run the asylum.

So the draft rebuild could have happened originally a few years earlier but in MLSE defense it was a playoff team that went into the lockout and a full reset button draft rebuild would not have been the most obvious visionary choice at the time.. How many playoff teams get blown up after all ?

However 3 years later and 3 non playoff years with and aging Sundin and veteran core the plug was pulled .. Better late then never they say.. So the table was set for a full blown patient draft rebuild in Toronto with Leaf nation on board knowing full well without Sundin and the former vets this team was going to go down hard and take time to find replacements through drafting and developing.

PS: There would have been nothing preventing Burke from making the Phaneuf or Lupul\Gardiner deals during a draft rebuild process in TO as they didn't involve draft picks and were used by clearing out vets which is what a draft rebuild premise is built upon. However when you trade away 2 consecutive future 1st round picks and 2nds you are calling off any draft rebuild in TO.

 

[King85Kong]

Burke was giving full control to do as he saw fit. He decided to cheat the rebuild and half go it. The Kessel deal should not have happened at that time. We should have loaded up on picks and played our youths. Burke over valued our team, which anyone could see we were terrible. We are now left in no man's land. Though to be far, he did win the majority of his trades. Just to bad we didn't go through a rebuild. Been doing the same thing for the last two decades and hasn't worked out. Now we're left just building as we go, to late to do a rebuild.

 

[Mess]

Fletcher made a bad situation worse but not entirely his fault. He had clearly lost his marbles and shouldn't have been brought in at all.

The goal was bottoming out and he was asked to clear the slate. The weaker the team after the clear-out the better the undertaking.

Players with no trade contracts have the say and prevented him from trading them even though he tried. Kaberle was heading to Philly for Jeff Carer and a 1st until Kaberle vetoed it. Sundin was heading out for draft picks but blocked the move.

How bad is a GM that needs to trade top draft picks for instant 36 goal scorer and add vets Phaneuf, Giguere, Komisarek and Beauchemin and takes the team even lower in the standings by his decisions of adding rather then subtracting?.

 

[FreeBird]

Fletcher made a bad situation worse but not entirely his fault. He had clearly lost his marbles and shouldn't have been brought in at all.

The sad thing is Fletcher was retired in Arizona obviously he wasn't up to date, so he had to rely on the scouts who were already here. Many of them are still here, what does that say about their credentials. Lets face it Burke was their hire and Cliff was only filling in for Burke to get his release from Anaheim. I'm certain Cliff was following Burke's orders through a third party. It's too bad Doug Armstrong of the Blues and Team Canada wasn't even grated an interview. Hired by the Blues he immediately stole Steen and Coliacovo away for Stempniak.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

Agreed 1000% about timing, except for the missed opportunity that occurred because the Burke inherited team was crap.

Flash back to previous GM JFJ fired. "Clearing the slate" an ownership directive designed to take the team to the bottom as it cleaned out its vets and a reset button pushed.

Interim GM Fletcher set the team up with an aging Cujo and Justin Pogge in net in hopes of landing top picks beginning with that season and it resulted in Luke Schenn to begin. Destined to take future runs at Tavaras or Duchene or Seguin etc etc while spending a few rebuilding season at the bottom of the standings. The table was set perfectly to begin building a young core through future drafts upon.

It was impatience about undertaking a draft rebuild in TO, that saw high picks flying out the door and big money spent on veteran additions when BB hit the ground running trying to shortcut the process of the team he inherited.

This is the origin of Leafs problems today.

This. And it continues today and the short future it seems.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Bump.

 

[613Leafer]

Remember in 2012 when we came 5th last in the entire league? Would have been nice to get some picks for Grabo/MacArthur. Also would have been nice to not waste a 2nd rounder on Liles. The cumulative impact of NOT selling those guys who werent part of the longterm core, + trading for a veteran dman who had never been good defensively, is probably something like a 1st (Grabo), two 2nds (Liles and Mac), and another mid rounder (from one of Grabo/Mac).

Thats just an example from one year. But we've had a consistent mentality of trading away picks, and then not getting value for guys who arent in the longterm plans. Several years later, having that "win now" mentality didnt make us any better, didnt win us anything, and had the cumulative impact of a lot of value out the door.

Most teams that managed to nab a franchise player or borderline 1st line player in the 2nd rounder or later in the draft, didnt get it because of good scouting. They got those players because they had EXTRA picks. Picks are lottery tickets. You can trade lottery tickets for depth players, 3rd liners, etc. And guarantee yourself an NHLer for that pick, but you also guarantee you WONT get an elite young talent, even if the odds of that werent that great. More picks = better odds.

Weber for example was Nashvilles THIRD 2nd round pick from that draft. If they only had one, in fact if they only had two 2nd rounders, they wouldnt have Weber today. There are plenty of other similar examples out there as well. Adding picks isnt exciting for a fanbase, but if you do it as a consistent philosophy at the expense of guys not in the longterm plans, as opposed to regularly trading picks for depth players, that type of mentality difference can have a BIG impact over a 5 year span.

 

[achtungbaby]

Remember in 2012 when we came 5th last in the entire league? Would have been nice to get some picks for Grabo/MacArthur. Also would have been nice to not waste a 2nd rounder on Liles. The cumulative impact of NOT selling those guys who werent part of the longterm core, + trading for a veteran dman who had never been good defensively, is probably something like a 1st (Grabo), two 2nds (Liles and Mac), and another mid rounder (from one of Grabo/Mac).

Thats just an example from one year. But we've had a consistent mentality of trading away picks, and then not getting value for guys who arent in the longterm plans. Several years later, having that "win now" mentality didnt make us any better, didnt win us anything, and had the cumulative impact of a lot of value out the door.

Most teams that managed to nab a franchise player or borderline 1st line player in the 2nd rounder or later in the draft, didnt get it because of good scouting. They got those players because they had EXTRA picks. Picks are lottery tickets. You can trade lottery tickets for depth players, 3rd liners, etc. And guarantee yourself an NHLer for that pick, but you also guarantee you WONT get an elite young talent, even if the odds of that werent that great. More picks = better odds.

Weber for example was Nashvilles THIRD 2nd round pick from that draft. If they only had one, in fact if they only had two 2nd rounders, they wouldnt have Weber today. There are plenty of other similar examples out there as well. Adding picks isnt exciting for a fanbase, but if you do it as a consistent philosophy at the expense of guys not in the longterm plans, as opposed to regularly trading picks for depth players, that type of mentality difference can have a BIG impact over a 5 year span.

But the mystery box! Agreed. It's time for some long view thinking in this franchise and it starts at the draft. Enough with the belief that we're smarter then the average bear and start looking at ways to do things differently. Lot's of bullets for the draft, patient development and a commitment to smart hockey from the ground leagues to the big show.

 

[Peasy]

If we got to rebuild like Buffalo or Colorado, I would have been so happy. It would be around this time that our young guns would start coming together.

 

[Faltorvo]

Well this is what I have been mentioning for oh so long, what is/are the top priorities of ownership.

Do we honestly think that ownership did not know coming out of the interview process that BB sought to rush this process?

Was it their mandate from the get go to get this team back into the playoff reveneu stream seeing how it was to be sold?

Lets add this up. this is a cap maxed team AND young , one would think a dynamic like that would constitute a team destined for greatness , the envy of the league. Not a team that is by the skin of it's teeth, holding onto the last playoff slot in the league.

A team that had to ship 10 million in
cap space ,just to get under the cap.

A roster that is already icing the market value of their 2013, 2014,2015 2nd round draft picks, plus a few other slots.

A franchise that has already decided that they are in a position to let their UFAs walk for no market return, PO depth now is a higher priority than recouping trade assets to keep building toward a cup.

This falls on all of them from jfj jr/teachers pension fund , the silver fox/the frozen five,BB ,Rogers/Bell Dave Nonis and the various scouts during that time.

This team does look like it's rebuild/retool is going to stall out as a mediocre, middle of the road, maybe a playoff team.

 

[Legion34]

If we got to rebuild like Buffalo or Colorado, I would have been so happy. It would be around this time that our young guns would start coming together.

Colorado didnt rebuild like u think they did. They tradesmtheir 2012 first round pick after picking 2nd in 2011 and before picking first in 2013. They did the exact same thing as the leafs did. They did not plan to tank in 2013. Just happened

U have no idea how well buffalo will turn out. Edmonton tanked better than anyone during burkes tenure and they are a disaster

 

[Legion34]

Okay, but JFJ went to MLSE BOG and said the team needs a draft rebuild they refused as later came out in the papers. It cost JFJ his job by following ownership directive to re-sign the aging vets and keep going.

After JFJ was made the scapegoat for MLSE mistake of not allowing a draft rebuild coming out of the 2004 lockout and new Cap World CBA, they realized the error of their ways and ordered a "Clearing of the Slate" initiative. Fletcher tried to trade everything that wasn't nailed down with Ownership approval from the top, stop only by NTC contracts that allowed the inmates to run the asylum.

So the draft rebuild could have happened originally a few years earlier but in MLSE defense it was a playoff team that went into the lockout and a full reset button draft rebuild would not have been the most obvious visionary choice at the time.. How many playoff teams get blown up after all ?

However 3 years later and 3 non playoff years with and aging Sundin and veteran core the plug was pulled .. Better late then never they say.. So the table was set for a full blown patient draft rebuild in Toronto with Leaf nation on board knowing full well without Sundin and the former vets this team was going to go down hard and take time to find replacements through drafting and developing.

PS: There would have been nothing preventing Burke from making the Phaneuf or Lupul\Gardiner deals during a draft rebuild process in TO as they didn't involve draft picks and were used by clearing out vets which is what a draft rebuild premise is built upon. However when you trade away 2 consecutive future 1st round picks and 2nds you are calling off any draft rebuild in TO.

Yea there would. If burke tells beauch we are going to tank, u think he signs. There no gardiner and lupul

If burke is 2nd last maybe he doesnt trade for phaneuf and ends up with a
Bunch of 4ths for stajan white and mayers
Heck maybe stajan goes on a stempniak streak channels boyd devereaux and we end up with brett connolly over seguin. Maybe burke interviews seguin gets a taste of his rampant homophobia and picks gubranson. You have no idea how it would turn out

 

[BraveCanadian]

That's just wrong

Our problems started when management didn't see the landscape of the game drastically changing around them. And those couple years post lockout were just brutal for the long term health of the organization. Rebuild should have started there.

Management was way ahead on the landscape of the game changing and had a plan to address it.

Management was overruled by ownership wanting to keep milking the playoff revenue as long as possible.

Management was then used as a scapegoat, blamed and shown the door.

 

[diceman934]

I blame Nonis for resigning an over rated D man at 7M for the next 7 years. This is a contract and a player that must be moved if we are ever going to be anything more then mediocre.

Burke anointed him as our leader and that shows just how stupid Burke is...look at our core players that Burke brought in.

Kessel.... a whiner his sulking is endless and sucks the life out of his team mates.

Dion.....our captain who processes no leadership ability. Another who pouts.

Lupul...its all about him....sulking about not being names to the list of invitees to the Olympic team....you are drinking your bath water Lupul if you think you deserved even a sniff.

JVR.....he plays hard when and if the mood strikes him.....

Last year our identity was form from our 4th line players....we were a tough team that stood up for each other....This year we do not have each others back... and lack any thing that resembles caring from this core group...

 

[Mess]

Burke's team 2012 (final) verses Nonis team of 2014 (today) statistical comparison

Goals Against
2012 - (264 goals against) 82 games = 3.22 GAA
2014 - (226 goals against) 73 games = 3.10 GAA [= 254 GA /82 games] + 10 goal improvement on pace

Goals For
2012 (231 goals for) 82 games = 2.82 average
2014 (213 GF /73 games) = 2.92 average [239 goals for ] = +8 GF improvement on pace.

PK%
2012 - 77.3% (28th)
2014 - 78.7% (28th) Improvement

PP%
2012- 18.4% (10th)
2014- 20.8% (4th) Improvement

Goal differential
2012 - -33
2014 - -13 (73 games) [ = -15 diff/82 games] Improvement

Record
2012 - 35 (27 ROW) - 37 - 10 = 80 points
2014 - 36 (27 ROW) - 29 - 08 = 80 points (73 games) [= 90 pts/82 games] Improvement

Nonis has improved the Leafs in each and every team stat category (albeit very little in some). But then again lots of the same players in both cases so what should one expect?.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

This. And it continues today and the short future it seems.

Exactly.

The Leafs tried to expedite the rebuild and now the flaws are starting to show after some temporary success.

I wish Nonis took a more patient approach this past summer but instead we gave up valuable cap space long term to Clarkson and valuable futures for a 1 year piece in Bolland (although we could retain him).

After some success last season, Nonis tried to vault us into contender status this season and we simply aren't there. This team needs to take a 2 or 3 year view to building us to being a contender.

Everyone in the core has lots of time left in their primes or have yet to even hit their primes that includes Kessel, Kadri, Phaneuf, Bernier, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly. These are the players we need to care about and have our cap space dedicated to long term. Everyone else is replaceable and should be viewed as a movable asset.

Just like we should have shipped out CMac, Grabo two seasons ago for futures we need to take a step back and look at getting assets for names like Gleason, Gunnarson, Franson, Reimer, Clarkson (I pray someone will take him) so that we can have more guys like Percy, Finn, Gauthier as candidates to come in on cheap contracts all at the same time.

More than anything this team simply needs to accept that it needs to take another step back before it could eventually be a contender (or have the assets when we truly are close to being like top picks/prospects to deal get someone like a JayBo (St. Louis), Kaberle (Boston), Hossa (Pittsburgh) like these teams did to get us there).

Step back deals like Lombardi to get Franson or Gardiner (+ Lupul) for Gardiner or trading out Kaberle or Versteeg is what this needed more of and still needs more of.

Leafs simply have too many holes to fix in one off-season to be a contender and need to take more of a 2 or 3 year approach.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I blame Nonis for resigning an over rated D man at 7M for the next 7 years. This is a contract and a player that must be moved if we are ever going to be anything more then mediocre.

Burke anointed him as our leader and that shows just how stupid Burke is...look at our core players that Burke brought in.

Kessel.... a whiner his sulking is endless and sucks the life out of his team mates.

Dion.....our captain who processes no leadership ability. Another who pouts.

Lupul...its all about him....sulking about not being names to the list of invitees to the Olympic team....you are drinking your bath water Lupul if you think you deserved even a sniff.

JVR.....he plays hard when and if the mood strikes him.....

Last year our identity was form from our 4th line players....we were a tough team that stood up for each other....This year we do not have each others back... and lack any thing that resembles caring from this core group...

Holy dramatic view!

Were Sundin, Belfour, Kaberle, McCabe also the problem? Cause I could have swore it was the lack of support they had.

Phaneuf is a top pairing Dman on nearly every team in the league. Kessel + JVR seemed to be good enough in carrying the US Olympic team.

This whole the team not caring is total BS. This team simply doesn't have enough high end talent. We need more high end talent. Not less.

If you believe Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR are the problem. Then I guess Tavares, Weber, Staals, Karlsson, Seguin, Sedins must also be losers!

 

[hotpaws]

Exactly.

The Leafs tried to expedite the rebuild and now the flaws are starting to show after some temporary success.

I wish Nonis took a more patient approach this past summer but instead we gave up valuable cap space long term to Clarkson and valuable futures for a 1 year piece in Bolland (although we could retain him).

After some success last season, Nonis tried to vault us into contender status this season and we simply aren't there. This team needs to take a 2 or 3 year view to building us to being a contender.

Everyone in the core has lots of time left in their primes or have yet to even hit their primes that includes Kessel, Kadri, Phaneuf, Bernier, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly. These are the players we need to care about and have our cap space dedicated to long term. Everyone else is replaceable and should be viewed as a movable asset.

Just like we should have shipped out CMac, Grabo two seasons ago for futures we need to take a step back and look at getting assets for names like Gleason, Gunnarson, Franson, Reimer, Clarkson (I pray someone will take him) so that we can have more guys like Percy, Finn, Gauthier as candidates to come in on cheap contracts all at the same time.

More than anything this team simply needs to accept that it needs to take another step back before it could eventually be a contender (or have the assets when we truly are close to being like top picks/prospects to deal get someone like a JayBo (St. Louis), Kaberle (Boston), Hossa (Pittsburgh) like these teams did to get us there).

Step back deals like Lombardi to get Franson or Gardiner (+ Lupul) for Gardiner or trading out Kaberle or Versteeg is what this needed more of and still needs more of.

Leafs simply have too many holes to fix in one off-season to be a contender and need to take more of a 2 or 3 year approach.

I agree but time isn't on our side when you take into account part of our core may be past their prime 2-3 seasons from now .

Lupul isn't getting any better and neither is DP and do we want to waste 2-3 of Kessel's prime years while we now go to a build slow approach ? Burke tried to accelerate our rebuild and now we're left with trying to elevate a flawed core before they start to slide .

There's no turning back unless we decide to deal DP/Lupul among others and hope they can net us quality prospects and 1st rd picks .

 

[diceman934]

Holy dramatic view!

Were Sundin, Belfour, Kaberle, McCabe also the problem? Cause I could have swore it was the lack of support they had.

Phaneuf is a top pairing Dman on nearly every team in the league. Kessel + JVR seemed to be good enough in carrying the US Olympic team.

This whole the team not caring is total BS. This team simply doesn't have enough high end talent. We need more high end talent. Not less.

If you believe Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR are the problem. Then I guess Tavares, Weber, Staals, Karlsson, Seguin, Sedins must also be losers!

Dion is not a top D man in fact he is a big part of the issue.....

WE lack leadership from our core group and without it we go no where.....you build around solid structure not crumbing structure...as we have currently. What do the group of players I mention all have in common.....the teams that drafted them all found them wanting....this is an issue and it is seen by the results that this group is producing.

My view is not over dramatic but a realistic view point....

Why do we get out played almost every game.....even when this group that I mention are on the ice together. Why?

No leadership=no results.

 

[diceman934]

I agree but time isn't on our side when you take into account part of our core may be past their prime 2-3 seasons from now .

Lupul isn't getting any better and neither is DP and do we want to waste 2-3 of Kessel's prime years while we now go to a build slow approach ? Burke tried to accelerate our rebuild and now we're left with trying to elevate a flawed core before they start to slide .

There's no turning back unless we decide to deal DP/Lupul among others and hope they can net us quality prospects and 1st rd picks .

That is the only solution in my opinion.....Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, Bernier and Kessel they are our true core along with a couple of other prospects. The rest are expendable.....I really believe that we need to get rid of Dion asap as he is the the head of the snake so to speak. Poster boy for a flawed rebuild by Burke.