Player Discussion: Brock Nelson

[MJF]

If you want to remain mediocre for longer, you give big/long-term contracts based on need rather than the talent of the player.

Exactly. Nelson is once again showing that he is incapable of coming through with consistent performances. We don’t need a streaky scorer who is nowhere to be found when the games and the standings get tight from December through February.

 

[periferal]

It doesn't seem like you really read my post. I specifically said, for the right price and term, I wouldn't mind seeing Nelson return.

And, maybe it wasn't clear, but if they could find a fair deal for player and team, I would be fine with Nelson as the 3C. With Barzal and a better 2C in place, Nelson could be a very strong 3C and better than mediocre.

I addressed all this in a previous post...

1. Nelson is getting AT LEAST 5M/year for 5+ years so that means he would have the WRONG "price and term."
2. I would accept Nelson as a 3rd line center as well, but his new deal is going to price him out of being one. Basically the $$$ a team is going to commit to Nelson are 2nd line center dollars.
3. Add all that up and he should be traded for for assets (that will help us get a legit 2nd line center we agree we need)

 

[periferal]

If you want to remain mediocre for longer, you give big/long-term contracts based on need rather than the talent of the player.

Speaking of...

Andrew Ladd

Please trade Nelson already so we can get a good asset or two to move this rebuild forward and we don't risk wasting valuable cap space on him.

 

[danteipp]

I addressed all this in a previous post...

1. Nelson is getting AT LEAST 5M/year for 5+ years so that means he would have the WRONG "price and term."
2. I would accept Nelson as a 3rd line center as well, but his new deal is going to price him out of being one. Basically the $$$ a team is going to commit to Nelson are 2nd line center dollars.
3. Add all that up and he should be traded for for assets (that will help us get a legit 2nd line center we agree we need)

Five years at $5 million per is reasonable to me. If that is indeed the limit of Nelson's ask and what he wants in order to stay here. It is only $750,000 more than he is making now.

If you can create a third scoring line of say JHS for possession and Beauvillier (with another year to add bulk and strength), that could be a very solid third line. And a cheap line until Beauvillier and JHS get closer to UFA.

If you want to free up money, package the Calgary second rounder and/or another asset with Clutter to a cap floor team and get his $3.5 million per off the books to offset Nelson's deal.

The return on Nelson also needs to be substantial and worth it too. If it is something like a second rounder and a B prospect, that isn't netting the elusive 2C or really helping to get the Isles to the next step.

If a team does overpay, great, take it and run and count our blessings. But teams aren't lining up to trade 2Cs. It is probably going to be a hard get outside of drafting and developing that player, which is going to take time.

So far I haven't seen anyone lay out a clear plan to getting that 2C. Get into the bidding war for Duchene and pay $8+million for seven years? Offer sheet Matthews at $12+ million?

Those are all tough asks for the Isles at the moment.

 

[Lame Lambert]

Trade him now

 

[PK Cronin]

Five years at $5 million per is reasonable to me. If that is indeed the limit of Nelson's ask and what he wants in order to stay here. It is only $750,000 more than he is making now.

If you can create a third scoring line of say JHS for possession and Beauvillier (with another year to add bulk and strength), that could be a very solid third line. And a cheap line until Beauvillier and JHS get closer to UFA.

If you want to free up money, package the Calgary second rounder and/or another asset with Clutter to a cap floor team and get his $3.5 million per off the books to offset Nelson's deal.

The return on Nelson also needs to be substantial and worth it too. If it is something like a second rounder and a B prospect, that isn't netting the elusive 2C or really helping to get the Isles to the next step.

If a team does overpay, great, take it and run and count our blessings. But teams aren't lining up to trade 2Cs. It is probably going to be a hard get outside of drafting and developing that player, which is going to take time.

So far I haven't seen anyone lay out a clear plan to getting that 2C. Get into the bidding war for Duchene and pay $8+million for seven years? Offer sheet Matthews at $12+ million?

Those are all tough asks for the Isles at the moment.

Nelson couldn't put up any points as a third line center last year in the offensive system Weight was using, why am I trusting him there in a more defensive Trotz system? Or do you think he'd be a good shut down center?

 

[danteipp]

Nelson couldn't put up any points as a third line center last year in the offensive system Weight was using, why am I trusting him there in a more defensive Trotz system? Or do you think he'd be a good shut down center?

I am not holding anything against players, including their past performance/struggles, in Weight's half-@ssed system. It was a disaster for many players, they were put in bad spots and position to fail outside of the top-two lines.

I want to evaluate the players from now until the trade deadline in Trotz system and see what strides they make. Especially now that Lou and Trotz added quality depth and competition to help bring some balance. They aren't saddled with bums like Quine, Prince, etc. or a crippled Ladd dragging them down. Then let Lou and Trotz decide who stays and who goes.

If Nelson can be signed to a reasonable deal, he is insurance at center and can easily be moved to LW if the Isles somehow find more quality at center.

But I am really wondering where everyone thinks the Isles are going to find a 2C and 3C by the start of next season? Where are they getting these players from, in a league where good centers are at a premium?

Are they winning the free agent bidding for Duchene? Are they convincing Staal to sign a short-term contract?

Or do people really believe the Isles are signing Panarin and a top defenseman? That they will beat out other teams in UFA?

I would love to see the Isles add top-tier talent. But if/when they do win the free agent sweepstakes for a player with pedigree like Panarin, it will be the first time in a long time. The first time in a generation to be honest.

But if some team wants to overpay for Nelson in quality young assets, I am all for that too. But either way the Isles opt to go, it should be in the best long-term interest of the team. And it could be selling off Nelson but it could also be extending him if the deal is team friendly and/or immenently moveable down the line.

 

[IODCPiper]

Trade him while the value is high.

^^^^^^this^^^^^

 

[Newsworthy]

Trade him now

Yeah Now Lou!

 

[NC 1972]

Everybody's favorite whipping boy, all we hear is how inconsistent his scoring is ok lets compare. He has 20 points in 29 games 1o/10 goals and assist and is a plus 10 highest +/- on the team. He doesn't see first line pp time and is on pace for a 56 point season. There is no denying under this coach he is much more engaged playing strong and more reliable in defensive zone. In contrast Josh Bailey leads the team in scoring w/24 points on 7/17 goals and assist see's first line pp time and is a plus 7. Matthew Barzal 23 points on 3/20 goals and assist is a -12 see's first line pp time and Anders Lee 22 points an 11/11 goals and assist is a +5 and see's first line pp time. I have said in the past this board chooses a goat and then there's no going back, yes I'm a believer in maximizing assets I said last year to get what you could for the traitor as I felt he was gone. I feel the same about all of our FA get what you can don't let anyone walk for no return just absurd. He is not dynamic but many big players aren't Barzal is everyone's favorite he motors all over exhibit's all kind of skill pulls us out of our seats but not every player has to be a Barzal. And the stat line as well as what I'm seeing on the ice tells me that Brock is playing his role in Trotz's system very well and I think the coach would agree.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Exactly. Nelson is once again showing that he is incapable of coming through with consistent performances. We don’t need a streaky scorer who is nowhere to be found when the games and the standings get tight from December through February.

A streaky scorer is better than a guy who doesn't score at all.

Trade him now

We can't trade him now because we still have Eberle and Le to sign, we can't lose that many top-six forwards heading into next season.

 

[MJF]

A streaky scorer is better than a guy who doesn't score at all.



We can't trade him now because we still have Eberle and Le to sign, we can't lose that many top-six forwards heading into next season.

Trade Eberle too.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Trade Eberle too.

For what? Draft pics that wont make a difference for another 3-4 years (if ever) and be in a perpetual rebuild?

 

[PK Cronin]

I am not holding anything against players, including their past performance/struggles, in Weight's half-@ssed system. It was a disaster for many players, they were put in bad spots and position to fail outside of the top-two lines.

I want to evaluate the players from now until the trade deadline in Trotz system and see what strides they make. Especially now that Lou and Trotz added quality depth and competition to help bring some balance. They aren't saddled with bums like Quine, Prince, etc. or a crippled Ladd dragging them down. Then let Lou and Trotz decide who stays and who goes.

If Nelson can be signed to a reasonable deal, he is insurance at center and can easily be moved to LW if the Isles somehow find more quality at center.

But I am really wondering where everyone thinks the Isles are going to find a 2C and 3C by the start of next season? Where are they getting these players from, in a league where good centers are at a premium?

Are they winning the free agent bidding for Duchene? Are they convincing Staal to sign a short-term contract?

Or do people really believe the Isles are signing Panarin and a top defenseman? That they will beat out other teams in UFA?

I would love to see the Isles add top-tier talent. But if/when they do win the free agent sweepstakes for a player with pedigree like Panarin, it will be the first time in a long time. The first time in a generation to be honest.

But if some team wants to overpay for Nelson in quality young assets, I am all for that too. But either way the Isles opt to go, it should be in the best long-term interest of the team. And it could be selling off Nelson but it could also be extending him if the deal is team friendly and/or immenently moveable down the line.

If Nelson can't score, what's his function? He isn't a shut down center and isn't great at face offs. I'd go hard for Duchene, yes, but I'd also be willing to trade for help.

Nelson is doing the same exact thing under Trotz as he did with the previous coaches, that's the concern.

Everybody's favorite whipping boy, all we hear is how inconsistent his scoring is ok lets compare. He has 20 points in 29 games 1o/10 goals and assist and is a plus 10 highest +/- on the team. He doesn't see first line pp time and is on pace for a 56 point season. There is no denying under this coach he is much more engaged playing strong and more reliable in defensive zone. In contrast Josh Bailey leads the team in scoring w/24 points on 7/17 goals and assist see's first line pp time and is a plus 7. Matthew Barzal 23 points on 3/20 goals and assist is a -12 see's first line pp time and Anders Lee 22 points an 11/11 goals and assist is a +5 and see's first line pp time. I have said in the past this board chooses a goat and then there's no going back, yes I'm a believer in maximizing assets I said last year to get what you could for the traitor as I felt he was gone. I feel the same about all of our FA get what you can don't let anyone walk for no return just absurd. He is not dynamic but many big players aren't Barzal is everyone's favorite he motors all over exhibit's all kind of skill pulls us out of our seats but not every player has to be a Barzal. And the stat line as well as what I'm seeing on the ice tells me that Brock is playing his role in Trotz's system very well and I think the coach would agree.

He's always been an even strength scorer but he's incredibly streaky. His pace is slowing, as it always does, and that's the problem with using pace. It only matters if they're able to keep it up, Nelson isn't. We know this and he's showing it again this year. The power play isn't scoring, so it's not like everyone is racking up a bunch of points there, and Barzal has obviously been a massive negative at even strength so it's not like Bailey is benefiting in that area now that they're playing together.

Obviously not every player has to be or can be a Barzal. Brock isn't a legitimate/good #2 center. He's average and scores in bunches, with zero play making ability. We need more from a talent starved offense. We need a player who drives the play. Nelson isn't that guy. Having him, Bailey, and Lee locked up is going to hurt more than help. There needs to be an improvement.

 

[MJF]

For what? Draft pics that wont make a difference for another 3-4 years (if ever) and be in a perpetual rebuild?

Gun to my head I’d be more inclined to re-sign Eberle as he is shooting himself in the foot in a contract year. We might be able to sign him at not much of an increase in AAV over his current deal. However I wouldn’t want to sign up for 5 more years of the Brock Nelson mediocrity treadmill. Trade his streaky ass at the deadline and let his next contract become an albatross to another organization.

 

[Sparksrus3]

Trade him now

Too late. It's now Brockcember . Brocktober seems like it was about as long ago as when my wife had a flat stomach.
1 goal in his last 11 games. 1 goal 1 assist in Brockcember. Maybe trade him for Clutterbuck. Oh we have him already. Never mind.

 

[ndgolden]

Five years at $5 million per is reasonable to me. If that is indeed the limit of Nelson's ask and what he wants in order to stay here. It is only $750,000 more than he is making now.

If you can create a third scoring line of say JHS for possession and Beauvillier (with another year to add bulk and strength), that could be a very solid third line. And a cheap line until Beauvillier and JHS get closer to UFA.

If you want to free up money, package the Calgary second rounder and/or another asset with Clutter to a cap floor team and get his $3.5 million per off the books to offset Nelson's deal.

The return on Nelson also needs to be substantial and worth it too. If it is something like a second rounder and a B prospect, that isn't netting the elusive 2C or really helping to get the Isles to the next step.

If a team does overpay, great, take it and run and count our blessings. But teams aren't lining up to trade 2Cs. It is probably going to be a hard get outside of drafting and developing that player, which is going to take time.

So far I haven't seen anyone lay out a clear plan to getting that 2C. Get into the bidding war for Duchene and pay $8+million for seven years? Offer sheet Matthews at $12+ million?

Those are all tough asks for the Isles at the moment.

8 million for a legit #2 Center is what the Isles should expect to pay, and should do so.

 

[Sparksrus3]

More useless Sparky facts .
Why not, the lights are still out at Barclays

Brock's great uncle won silver in 1956
Brock's grandfather won gold in 1960
Brock's uncle Dave Christian you all know won gold in 1980
Brock's grandfather and great uncle started Christian hockey stick company .
Brock - Toy Story star and pot smoker .

The kid surely has the bloodlines. Makes me sometimes think he was forced into hockey and would be just as happy smoking his bong and working at Bed ,Bath,and Beyond

LGI

 

[periferal]

Without factoring in term (debate how wise that is later), what's the approximate going base rate for-
...an elite superstar player? 11MM$
... a star player? 8.75MM$
... a very good player 6.5MM$
If you think Brock hits that status of "very good" player, you're prepared to pay him that. If not, you're not. To me, he should top out at 6MM$. I can see someone giving him a two year 13MM$ total deal so he can demonstrate that he's worth a longer deal, and given the Seattle reality, that'd be a smart move from his agent. If his play is great over the next 2.5 years, I think he'd fare well in the new economy that would see another team competing for resources.

You're on the right track, but you can't keep it that simple. Evander Kane is an excellent player and probably gets paid correctly given his skills/production, but no way I would want that guy on my team.

Same goes for Nelson. His disappearing act more than not is literally what you don't want when it comes time for the playoffs. And most importantly...His effort is questionable despite some high end skills and elite shot.

I'm trying to picture a Cup contender that has Nelson as their 2nd line center and I'm just not seeing it. It's way too important a position to spend 5+ million on someone like Nelson.

I don't care what kind of a hole it leaves us with at center. When you do things...Do them "right" which is to say with the Cup in mind...Not to just not have a hole. When you're filling holes you sign guys like Filppula to short-term deals. Long-term contracts should be reserved for CORE CUP CALIBER PLAYERS...Not Brock "I'm 6'3, but play like I'm 5'10" Nelson.

 

[MJF]

You're on the right track, but you can't keep it that simple. Evander Kane is an excellent player and probably gets paid correctly given his skills/production, but no way I would want that guy on my team.

Same goes for Nelson. His disappearing act more than not is literally what you don't want when it comes time for the playoffs. And most importantly...His effort is questionable despite some high end skills and elite shot.

I'm trying to picture a Cup contender that has Nelson as their 2nd line center and I'm just not seeing it. It's way too important a position to spend 5+ million on someone like Nelson.

I don't care what kind of a hole it leaves us with at center. When you do things...Do them "right" which is to say with the Cup in mind...Not to just not have a hole. When you're filling holes you sign guys like Filppula to short-term deals. Long-term contracts should be reserved for CORE CUP CALIBER PLAYERS...Not Brock "I'm 6'3, but play like I'm 5'10" Nelson.

On a deep team guys like Nelson and Bailey are 3rd liners.

 

[periferal]

On a deep team guys like Nelson and Bailey are 3rd liners.

You get it. Wondering if the fans out there who "just want to make the playoffs" will ever start raising their standards and seeing the big picture on what needs to be done to truly build a team competing for the President's Trophy and Cup.

It ain't going to happen if you waste 23 million (about 30%) of your cap on Bailey, Nelson, Ladd, Cizikas, and Clutterbuck.

I would absolutely miss the playoffs around here to start acquiring assets to make our team a true Cup contender...And even if it takes a few more years. We might as well admit we're rebuilding again since the wang/snow era was a colossal waste of time on every level.

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

More useless Sparky facts .
Why not, the lights are still out at Barclays

Brock's great uncle won silver in 1956
Brock's grandfather won gold in 1960
Brock's uncle Dave Christian you all know won gold in 1980
Brock's grandfather and great uncle started Christian hockey stick company .
Brock - Toy Story star and pot smoker .

The kid surely has the bloodlines. Makes me sometimes think he was forced into hockey and would be just as happy smoking his bong and working at Bed ,Bath,and Beyond

LGI

He would most certainly be the floor manager in the "Beyond" section

 

[Newsworthy]

Everybody's favorite whipping boy, all we hear is how inconsistent his scoring is ok lets compare. He has 20 points in 29 games 1o/10 goals and assist and is a plus 10 highest +/- on the team. He doesn't see first line pp time and is on pace for a 56 point season. There is no denying under this coach he is much more engaged playing strong and more reliable in defensive zone. In contrast Josh Bailey leads the team in scoring w/24 points on 7/17 goals and assist see's first line pp time and is a plus 7. Matthew Barzal 23 points on 3/20 goals and assist is a -12 see's first line pp time and Anders Lee 22 points an 11/11 goals and assist is a +5 and see's first line pp time. I have said in the past this board chooses a goat and then there's no going back, yes I'm a believer in maximizing assets I said last year to get what you could for the traitor as I felt he was gone. I feel the same about all of our FA get what you can don't let anyone walk for no return just absurd. He is not dynamic but many big players aren't Barzal is everyone's favorite he motors all over exhibit's all kind of skill pulls us out of our seats but not every player has to be a Barzal. And the stat line as well as what I'm seeing on the ice tells me that Brock is playing his role in Trotz's system very well and I think the coach would agree.

I never considered Nelson the Whipping Boy. I see a streaky player having the best year of his career so far in a free agent year. I see a player who is what he is. He's been better in Trotz system and that's another feather in his hat. However he isn't young or highly skilled. Nor is he physical or great defensively. I wouldn't trust him in crunch time or in the playoffs. His stats don't tell the whole story. He will be paid more than what he is worth so trade him for great value because he isn't part of the future anyway.

 

[Seph]

You get it. Wondering if the fans out there who "just want to make the playoffs" will ever start raising their standards and seeing the big picture on what needs to be done to truly build a team competing for the President's Trophy and Cup.

It ain't going to happen if you waste 23 million (about 30%) of your cap on Bailey, Nelson, Ladd, Cizikas, and Clutterbuck.

I would absolutely miss the playoffs around here to start acquiring assets to make our team a true Cup contender...And even if it takes a few more years. We might as well admit we're rebuilding again since the wang/snow era was a colossal waste of time on every level.

Not trying to knock your beliefs here, but if this is truly what you believe, you're going to really hate Lou being GM. At least based on his past history as a GM, because that has never been how he operates.

 

[Poliz24]

Any chance he becomes josh bailey in a few years? Not in terms of the skill set or anything like that. I am referring to Bailey not putting up points and being the whipping boy. Bailey has shown for the past few years now he can put up points, Nelson is 27 right now, the same age as Bailey put up his first 50 point season, Bailey is 29 now. Perhaps brock might become more of a consistent player, who knows. But I can't argue with him being traded because Nelson can be frustratingly inconsistent.