Breaking down the Amateur Scout staff

[F A N]

I agree with the rest but not on Tochkin. I know he put up good numbers as a 17 y/o but his skating issues were extremely obvious even then. I thought it was a pretty poor signing myself. Not as bad as Schneider, but still pretty bad. I have no issues taking gambles on small offensive players, but they need to either be very good skaters or have absolutely incredible core strength/balance. Tochkin was nowhere close to having either.

Big surprise, he was a WHL signing.

For what it's worth Tochkin was signed at a time when the Canucks didn't have much in the way of prospects like him and WHL scouting is something that Gillis chose to address this past year.

 

[LolClarkson*]

I think that's a pretty good indication that "people on here" aren't qualified to be scouts either at the pro or amateur level.

I wouldn't say that...

Most people on here have a pretty good record of calling out overpayments.

Pekka Rinne 7 million Under 900 save percentage.

David Clarkson ?

 

[Lundface*]

The proof (and I hope I am wrong) will be in a couple years, when the twins are gone. Then, we shall see how the next 'core' does.

If you look at the majority of teams in the NHL, their top end talent comes from high end draft picks. The twins were former 2nd/3rd overall picks and their emergence has made it so this team is successful, thus not exactly making it easy to get prime young talent. There are a few exceptions of course with players taking huge steps forward post draft, but if you look at the best teams in the league they tend to have a few of these guys in their lineup.

The exceptions to this are teams that have been able to maintain good teams without picking in the top 5, like Detroit and Jersey. But surprise, surprise you get a cap and limit the amount some teams can pay to sign free agents and even those teams will begin to struggle. What would Detroit look like without Datsyuk and Zetterberg? How's Jersey looking these days (they also picked high with Larsson recently)

Vancouver is actually set up decently for the future, if the twins can maintain their level for 5 or so years. That will give the next wave of Horvat, Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Kassian, Jensen to develop. If Horvat and Shinkaruk alone develop into legitimate top 6 forwards and the twins stay the same for a few years that will be this teams chance to strike.

For all the hate Gillis is getting recently (a lot he deserves) he has built a strong blue line. Trade one big money making dman (Bieksa would be my choice) for offensive help and Van is in good shape going forward.

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Shinkaruk Kesler UFA/Bieksa trade
Higgins Horvat Hansen
who knows Gaunce who knows

Edler Garrison
Hamhuis Tanev
Stanton Corrado

And I even forgot about Burrows .

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Shinkaruk Horvat Kesler
Higgins Gaunce Kassian/Hansen

 

[Tiranis]

I agree with the rest but not on Tochkin. I know he put up good numbers as a 17 y/o but his skating issues were extremely obvious even then. I thought it was a pretty poor signing myself. Not as bad as Schneider, but still pretty bad. I have no issues taking gambles on small offensive players, but they need to either be very good skaters or have absolutely incredible core strength/balance. Tochkin was nowhere close to having either.

Big surprise, he was a WHL signing.

I don't know. You got a guy that produced very good numbers for a rookie in the WHL at 17 years old and you can sign him on a free. Not that crazy of a move. Yes, skating was an issue and I don't disagree with that but we've seen players improve their skating. In case of Tochkin, he was still pretty raw and the team likely thought he could improve it with some work.

 

[Ziostilon]

This is to all the people that think 2nd, 3rd rounds and below in the draft are very hit and miss. and more than likely you'll get an career AHLer out of it.

Canucks just played LA Kings:
Linden Vey: 2009 round 4 #96 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Tyler Toffoli: 2010 round 2 #47 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Tanner Pearson: 2012 round 1 #30 overall by Los Angeles Kings

That right there was the #1 line for LA's AHL club.

Jordan Weal: 2010 round 3 #70 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Slava Voynov: 2008 round 2 #32 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Dwight King: 2007 round 4 #109 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Andrei Loktionov [with New Jersey now because LA didn't have any more space for centers]: 2008 round 5 #123 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Jordan Nolan: 2009 round 7 #186 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Nicolas Deslauriers: 2009 round 3 #84 overall by Los Angeles Kings

I'm not even going to go into the Chicago Blackhawks, whom just won another cup.
Saad, Andrew Shaw, Joakim Nordstrom, Mark McNeill, Garret Ross, Phillip Danault, Jeremy Morin, Ryan Stanton [Canucks picked up], Marcus Krüger, Jimmy Hayes, Brandon Pirri

Mind you not all of them are on the NHL roster. However they are making contributions to their AHL club.
Same can't be said for the Utica Comets, who just won two games finally, because they have NOBODY for that on their roster

This is Mike Gillis' biggest fault in his whole tenure here. He walked into this job, from my recollection [like he was Joe Thornton after he scored 4 goals] saying scouting and development needs more work.
In that same time frame, the Blackhawks and Kings have both won cups and re-stocked the cupboards. While Gillis went to the dance, lost, but the cupboards are half-bare.

 

[pahlsson]

really doesn't help that we traded away our 2nd round pick 3 of the last 4 drafts and the one draft we do have it we pick alex ****ing mallet

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

He has done an absolute piss poor job of drafting. Schroeder over johansson, jensen over saad, trading away their 1st round pick for ballard when they could have picked etem.

 

[The Optimist]

Pro scouts have nailed it lately with Waiver Wire pick-ups.

Stanton, Weise and even Sestito are all regulars.

Not to mention the signings of Richardson and Santorelli.

 

[Ziostilon]

Pro scouts have nailed it lately with Waiver Wire pick-ups.

Stanton, Weise and even Sestito are all regulars.

Not to mention the signings of Richardson and Santorelli.

yes. maybe that was what Gillis meant all along.

Beef up pro scouting. Let other teams develop amateur talent, then pick them up on waivers or sign them on the cheap once they've been developed

 

[canucksfan]

yes. maybe that was what Gillis meant all along.

Beef up pro scouting. Let other teams develop amateur talent, then pick them up on waivers or sign them on the cheap once they've been developed

Not a good plan.

 

[pahlsson]

i still don't trust our pro scouts for the sole reason that cam barker was picked up last year

 

[arsmaster*]

This is to all the people that think 2nd, 3rd rounds and below in the draft are very hit and miss. and more than likely you'll get an career AHLer out of it.

Canucks just played LA Kings:
Linden Vey: 2009 round 4 #96 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Tyler Toffoli: 2010 round 2 #47 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Tanner Pearson: 2012 round 1 #30 overall by Los Angeles Kings

That right there was the #1 line for LA's AHL club.

Jordan Weal: 2010 round 3 #70 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Slava Voynov: 2008 round 2 #32 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Dwight King: 2007 round 4 #109 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Andrei Loktionov [with New Jersey now because LA didn't have any more space for centers]: 2008 round 5 #123 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Jordan Nolan: 2009 round 7 #186 overall by Los Angeles Kings
Nicolas Deslauriers: 2009 round 3 #84 overall by Los Angeles Kings

I'm not even going to go into the Chicago Blackhawks, whom just won another cup.
Saad, Andrew Shaw, Joakim Nordstrom, Mark McNeill, Garret Ross, Phillip Danault, Jeremy Morin, Ryan Stanton [Canucks picked up], Marcus Krüger, Jimmy Hayes, Brandon Pirri

Mind you not all of them are on the NHL roster. However they are making contributions to their AHL club.
Same can't be said for the Utica Comets, who just won two games finally, because they have NOBODY for that on their roster

This is Mike Gillis' biggest fault in his whole tenure here. He walked into this job, from my recollection [like he was Joe Thornton after he scored 4 goals] saying scouting and development needs more work.
In that same time frame, the Blackhawks and Kings have both won cups and re-stocked the cupboards. While Gillis went to the dance, lost, but the cupboards are half-bare.

How many times have the Canucks missed the playoffs and rebuilt in the last 15 years?

Chicago was abysmal for almost a decade. Their poor play lead to being able to draft highly. On top of that, their first cup win, allowed them to trade proven NHL talent for an abundance of picks and prospects. It's easy to hit when you have a lot of picks.


LA, same story. doughty was a 2nd overall pick, Voynov was the 2nd pick of the 2nd round and La's 3rd pick.

edit *Thomas Hickey 4th overall, Colten Teubert 13th overall....Imagine if they take McDonagh and Erik Karlsson? For me it just looks totally hindsight to say look at Chicago and LA....they miss two. Saad was their 4th pick in 2011, Looks like they screwed up 3 times before hitting. Comes across whiney. Analyze all the teams over the same period and see where they rank, Canucks are likely in the middle of the pack and have a lot of success over the last decade.

Easy to say the teams that tank or suck and load up on picks for multiple years are better, of course they will be.*

Canucks haven't been good, but every team makes mistakes. The Canucks have been competitive all along. No tanks for top 5 picks.

I could cherry pick any team in the league to show how good they are, Canucks have had a lack of picks due to trying to stay competitive and have had some misses. In my eyes no more or No less than the average team.

 

[NuxFan09]

When it comes to forward prospects, we can't play the "longer college route" card. Joseph LaBate and Matthew Beattie are the only college forward prospects we have. It's not like we're waiting for a bushel full of promising prospects playing for 4 years in the NCAA.

I would like to see what comes out of the more recent 2011 and 2012 drafts. If those drafts produce little value, then I'd say it's time to overhaul most of the scouting staff again.

 

[Tank]

The scouting in my opinion has been both good and bad and ceratinly need of improvement

The Good - Focus on Ontario - finally we are getting some legit prospects whether that is Gillis or Palango we are starting to finally drill holes where there is the most gold in the ground. If we only used some of those high picks used for the Q league in Ontario we would be in terrific shape - are two most ready prosepcrts (Archibald and Corrado ) were a FA signing and a fifth rounder - not too shabby - I say give thses guys more clout - Horvat - Cassels - Hutton - all look like legit prospects - thank god for these picks or we would be totally fracked

The Bad - The Q drafting has been a complete and utter disaster - so many wasted high 2 nd and 3 rd round picks - makes no sense - I was glad to see last years draft where we took zero players from this league.

The WHL is a cluster**** as well - Taylor Ellington, Prab Rai, Morgan Clark and most recently Wes Myron who left school 6 months after he was drafted DUH!!! Somebody didnt do there homework here - ultimately Delorme is responsible - one too many the night he scouted him.

US - again not real good results here unless Matt Beattie scoring 2 goals in 1.5 seasons counts as progress for a 93 born player - jurys out on Labate - and McNally kicked out of school for cheating - why do we miss the good ones - Nelson Coyle etc and end up with these slugs

On a positive it looks like we are moving in the right direction I think if we keep focusing on Ontario we may conitnue to get some players and with the twins here for four more year it gives us some time to transition.

Just my thoughts

 

[NuxFan09]

Also I've said this a lot and I'll say it again: I'd like to get some more goalie prospects in the fold. After going the one goalie per draft route for awhile, Gillis has now gone two straight drafts without selecting a goalie.

I know we're not desperate for goaltenders at the moment but it's always good to keep that pipeline flowing, especially when it's a position which this organization seems to be very adept at developing. They've got their NHL tandem in Luongo and Lack and their AHL tandem in Eriksson and Cannata but they have zero junior aged goalie prospects, whether it be in major junior, the NCAA or Europe.

 

[arsmaster*]

Also I've said this a lot and I'll say it again: I'd like to get some more goalie prospects in the fold. After going the one goalie per draft route for awhile, Gillis has now gone two straight drafts without selecting a goalie.

I know we're not desperate for goaltenders at the moment but it's always good to keep that pipeline flowing, especially when it's a position which this organization seems to be very adept at developing. They've got their NHL tandem in Luongo and Lack and their AHL tandem in Eriksson and Cannata but they have zero junior aged goalie prospects, whether it be in major junior, the NCAA or Europe.

Goalie prospects are wastes of picks IMO.

Way too volatile to spend high draft picks on. I like what we're doing in net, at least systematically.

 

[DennisReynolds]

He has done an absolute piss poor job of drafting. Schroeder over johansson, jensen over saad, trading away their 1st round pick for ballard when they could have picked etem.

This is the part I've gotten annoyed with. Did you forget that Chicago didn't pick Saad until it was their 4th pick? They've picked McNeil, Danault, and Clendening before Saad.

 

[SighReally]

Those who use Jensen over Saad as a reason for bad scouting probably use the "We didn't draft Gallagher because WHL scouting!!!" card too.

 

[NuxFan09]

Goalie prospects are wastes of picks IMO.

Way too volatile to spend high draft picks on. I like what we're doing in net, at least systematically.

I never said high draft picks. You can easily get good goaltenders with 4th, 5th, 6th, even 7th round draft picks. Personally, I'm just fine with using a late pick on a goalie. Given how good this organization is at developing them, I feel that the Canucks would actually get way better value out of a late pick drafting a goalie than a forward.

 

[me2]

The scouting in my opinion has been both good and bad and ceratinly need of improvement

The Good - Focus on Ontario - finally we are getting some legit prospects whether that is Gillis or Palango we are starting to finally drill holes where there is the most gold in the ground. If we only used some of those high picks used for the Q league in Ontario we would be in terrific shape - are two most ready prosepcrts (Archibald and Corrado ) were a FA signing and a fifth rounder - not too shabby - I say give thses guys more clout - Horvat - Cassels - Hutton - all look like legit prospects - thank god for these picks or we would be totally fracked

The Bad - The Q drafting has been a complete and utter disaster - so many wasted high 2 nd and 3 rd round picks - makes no sense - I was glad to see last years draft where we took zero players from this league.

The WHL is a cluster**** as well - Taylor Ellington, Prab Rai, Morgan Clark and most recently Wes Myron who left school 6 months after he was drafted DUH!!! Somebody didnt do there homework here - ultimately Delorme is responsible - one too many the night he scouted him.

US - again not real good results here unless Matt Beattie scoring 2 goals in 1.5 seasons counts as progress for a 93 born player - jurys out on Labate - and McNally kicked out of school for cheating - why do we miss the good ones - Nelson Coyle etc and end up with these slugs

On a positive it looks like we are moving in the right direction I think if we keep focusing on Ontario we may conitnue to get some players and with the twins here for four more year it gives us some time to transition.

Just my thoughts

Did you just wonder why we didn't get Nelson/Coyle with our 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th round picks? You don't get quality picks in that range it's pretty hard to compare with top 40 picks. At that range you just hope the kids find something extra and overcome issues.

Nonis scouting Taylor Ellington, Prab Rai, Morgan Clark - hopefully no more.


The biggest problem with these analysis are

1. pick the best scouting team to compare against. 29 other teams lose

2. Pick the best of the best teams and combine into some super-strong draft list then wonder why the Canucks aren't better. Nobody is better not even the best teams when you start mix and matching.

3. completely ignores other teams failures. "OMG we should have had Saad, Chicago knew he was good.". No they didn't, if they did he would have been their 18th overall pick. They didn't want him at 18, at 26 or even at 36. You don't let a guy slide to 43 if you are convinced he's going to be a stud because some other team would take him. Chicago clearly thought no better of Saad than the Canucks, the Canucks probably would have taken him with 36 pick given Gillis has shown he'll usually pick fallers (Schroeder, Shinkaruk etc).

4. missing quality 2nd round picks ie picks in the 31-45 range. They are the second rounders that you really want aka guys with potential first rounders (ie Saads Voynovs etc). The only one we've have was 41 (Sauve) and that was the last of the Nonis based scouting (emphasis on physical ability/size for Dman rather the Gillis emphasis on smarts and 2-way).

5. Close your eyes and throw 10 red darts at dart board. Repeat with blue, green, yellow, orange etc. Some colours are going to outperform others, yet it was pure luck, RNG. Around here people would argue why is isn't blue as good as purple, what is purple doing so much better.

 

[vanuck]

He has done an absolute piss poor job of drafting. Schroeder over johansson, jensen over saad, trading away their 1st round pick for ballard when they could have picked etem.

BPA in both instances.

This is Mike Gillis' biggest fault in his whole tenure here. He walked into this job, from my recollection [like he was Joe Thornton after he scored 4 goals] saying scouting and development needs more work.
In that same time frame, the Blackhawks and Kings have both won cups and re-stocked the cupboards. While Gillis went to the dance, lost, but the cupboards are half-bare.

Two different things going on here - whether mid-round picks are being retained, and whether or not we're doing well enough with the ones we have.

 

[Bubbles]

The scouting in my opinion has been both good and bad and ceratinly need of improvement

The Good - Focus on Ontario - finally we are getting some legit prospects whether that is Gillis or Palango we are starting to finally drill holes where there is the most gold in the ground. If we only used some of those high picks used for the Q league in Ontario we would be in terrific shape - are two most ready prosepcrts (Archibald and Corrado ) were a FA signing and a fifth rounder - not too shabby - I say give thses guys more clout - Horvat - Cassels - Hutton - all look like legit prospects - thank god for these picks or we would be totally fracked

The Bad - The Q drafting has been a complete and utter disaster - so many wasted high 2 nd and 3 rd round picks - makes no sense - I was glad to see last years draft where we took zero players from this league.

The WHL is a cluster**** as well - Taylor Ellington, Prab Rai, Morgan Clark and most recently Wes Myron who left school 6 months after he was drafted DUH!!! Somebody didnt do there homework here - ultimately Delorme is responsible - one too many the night he scouted him.

US - again not real good results here unless Matt Beattie scoring 2 goals in 1.5 seasons counts as progress for a 93 born player - jurys out on Labate - and McNally kicked out of school for cheating - why do we miss the good ones - Nelson Coyle etc and end up with these slugs

On a positive it looks like we are moving in the right direction I think if we keep focusing on Ontario we may conitnue to get some players and with the twins here for four more year it gives us some time to transition.

Just my thoughts

Where's your opinion on European scouting? Personally, aside from Edler, we have done horrible in Europe.

 

[arsmaster*]

This is Mike Gillis' biggest fault in his whole tenure here. He walked into this job, from my recollection [like he was Joe Thornton after he scored 4 goals] saying scouting and development needs more work.
In that same time frame, the Blackhawks and Kings have both won cups and re-stocked the cupboards. While Gillis went to the dance, lost, but the cupboards are half-bare.

So I feel I need to dig deeper here, especially with the Thornton comment. It's clear you've got a motive.

Kings won a Cup. Let us look at some things that occurred on their way to get their:

Let's start in 2005: Kopitar fell into their laps...are fault, credit where it's due. Same with Quick in the 3rd nice pick. Let's not forget JMFJ, who forced a move out of Carolina. Another 3rd overall pick ends up on the Kings.

Still a bottom 10 in the league in 2005-2006. Another highish pick (11th) they take Bernier and the 2nd time eligible Trevor Lewis in the first round. Decent draft.

Finish the season with the 3rd worst record in 2006-2007. A lottery pick. The take Thomas Hickey. He's in the league now, but it could be one of the worst top 5 picks of all times. The also got a solid 2/3 tweener in Wayne Simmonds that year.

That's what happens when you suck, early picks at the beginning of rounds every year.

2007-2008 things got even worse record wise, but clearly finishing tied as the worst team in the league benefitted them. The lose the lottery, have 3 picks in the first 32 including 2nd overall. The hit on the 1st and 3rd (Teubert busting doesn't matter with that many early picks, especially when a franchise d-man is 2nd overall).

2008-2009. Bottom 5 team in the league. Draft a top kid in Brayden Schenn. Good pick, hard to miss in the top 5. Had 8 picks in this draft.

2009-2010 the kids are finally starting to come of age. They make the playoffs. It's the first time since 2002 (8 years) they haven't had a pick in the top 15. This is a key point.

Now being bad to mediocre for so long allowed the Kings (very similar story here with the Hawks) to accumulate youth. The currency to get better quickly in the NHL.

It finally came together for them to win a cup in 2012. Why? They moved a 3rd overall (top 4 dman), a 5th overall (top prospect outside the NHL at the time), that developed 2/3 tweener, and an abundance of picks and prospects to go out and add two established top line players in the league.

IF YOU THINK THE CANUCKS ARE IN ANY WHERE NEAR THE SAME PART OF THEIR CYCLE AS THE KINGS I JUST DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY.

This isn't to say the Canucks are great drafters or developers, but for me, with what they've iced as a roster, and what they've accomplished during that time, I'd say their probably in the mid level of all NHL teams. Definitely a lot of room to improve.

I won't dig deep into the Hawks, but 2007 they got a 1st overall, 2006, 3rd overall...they got cornerstone studs.

We got ours in 1999.

Comparing our team to the Chicago's and LA's is a losing battle from the start....we didn't have losing teams this decade, they did. They're cores are substantially younger, and they had an abundance of moveable assets, similar to the Kings to continually roll over their roster with youth. That is just something we could never do.

Has nothing to do with the GM, just the ripeness of the team. One more win in 2011, and this doesn't get debated as hard....but comparing 25 year old avg age rosters to ours is unfair, and frankly, I don't expect it to stop. A franchise that's never won a thing, but we're entitled to compete for the cup every year, whilst still drafting top line talent from the bottom of every round.

 

[Ziostilon]

^^ my beef isn't with the Canucks NHL roster vs that of LA's.

More so down in the AHL, how Manchester could have that many youngsters contribute last season.

Most aren't high picks either.

But let's not get into this team's cupboard versus other team's.

I wouldn't be having this conversation had current Canucks third line been: Sweatt-Schroeder-Rodin. Facts are facts, whether it's drafting or development, this organization couldn't get it done.

Gillis has had five years. If you get one pick right for three years and you already get a line there.

 

[arsmaster*]

^^ my beef isn't with the Canucks NHL roster vs that of LA's.

More so down in the AHL, how Manchester could have that many youngsters contribute last season.

Most aren't high picks either.

But let's not get into this team's cupboard versus other team's.

I wouldn't be having this conversation had current Canucks third line been: Sweatt-Schroeder-Rodin. Facts are facts, whether it's drafting or development, this organization couldn't get it done.

Gillis has had five years. If you get one pick right for three years and you already get a line there.

Either way you slice it zio, the NHL roster and AHL roster of both teams are determined by both the frequency of picks and where they're coming from.

I wouldn't be shocked to see LA have twice as many picks as us during Gillis' tenure.

This organization couldn't get what done? Ice a 3rd line of draftees or a 1st line of draftees in the AHL?

We're not great, but comparing us to a team like LA is unfair. I'd look at a team like the Blues or the Sharks for better comparisons to us both success wise and poor prospects in the AHL wise.

I have positive feelings on the 11,12, and 13 drafts. We'll see what I think of those in a few more years, if it's more of the same, then I'll be worried about the scouting. Early glances definitely seems like it's going in the right direction.