Breaking down the Amateur Scout staff

[thefeebster]

I'd be interested in knowing which scouts have hit a 'homerun'.

For example it was Gradin (correct me if I'm wrong) that scouted and recommended Edler. Does anybody else have examples of any of these scouts finding a gem? To be honest I'm almost completely in the dark when it comes to our scouting staff.

Adding to the list:

Lars Lindgren gets credit for Lack.

Ken Cook is rumored to be behind the picks for Price and Hutton.

Speculation: Inge Hammarstrom has been a consultant/advisor for Brynas since 2009, I would assume he had some input to Rodin and any SEL/SHL guys. I know he was interviewed while scouting Viktor Arvidsson who played on the same team (Skelleftea) as Eriksson.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

They did that last summer. Hell, they evaluate results all the time. I don't know why people think they don't.

I mean, just look at the list on top and half those guys weren't even here before Gillis. Not to mention the extent of the reshuffling that has gone on.

---

One of the quotes from January:

Okay fine, they evaluate results. I'd just like to see bad results causing more positive changes. The fact Delorme still has a job continues to boggle my mind, and not in the way I like it boggled.

 

[Bure All Day]

Fire anyone who has been here since before 1990.

yeah i dont get why they are still here, unless they had something to do with Bure, Linden was a great player, but wasn't a great when you look at who was drafted afterwards (Selanna, Roenick, Blake, Recci, Mogilny)

 

[vanuck]

The 2007 and 2008 drafts hurt. 08 was scouted by Nonis' staff given that most of Gillis' guys weren't hired until later and given that he didn't revamp the scouting focus until that summer.

Then 09 and 10, Canucks went pretty heavy on D and goaltending. Those were both organizational weaknesses at the time and the depth at those positions is looking pretty nice these days. (Not to mention the lack of picks.)

So really, we've drafted majority of our forwards in the last 3 drafts and the guys from '11 are only now eligible for the AHL. Yet, a guy like LaBate who would be a Top 6 guy in the AHL is still in college.

So, the situation in Utica is not particularly surprising to me.

Sums it up pretty well. Getting Lack and Tanev in UFA helped cover some of the holes we had on D and in goal, but it was the right call to rebuild the organization's depth in those two areas first given what we already had at forward on the big club.

Most of our top 6 forward prospects in the cupboard are simply too young for the AHL.

 

[vanuck]

that's why i mentioned quality of scouts too

Just like how this organization is framed to attract players to come here. Should it not be the same with scouts too. It doesn't hurt that the Canucks can and probably willing to pay

Who the *bleep* recommends: Stefan Schneider, Kellan Tochkin, Bill Sweatt, Eric Walsky, Evan Oberg... and the list goes on

Don't give me the excuse of "they're still in juniors". Gillis & his bandit of scouts have had four drafts to work with + all the undrafted signings.
And there's more than one round in a draft. What happened to Alex Mallet being Gillis' Andrew Shaw. Yann Sauve got beat out by Ryan Stanton for at least a sixth d-man slot.

It's management's fault for trading away all these picks. If you're gonna do that, then that's fine. We have money and scout man-power. There's 50 contract slots + the ones that can slide.
Go out there and find some talent. Don't come back and be like, we traded away our third rounder, but here's Bill Sweatt in return

Good scouts don't necessarily have to come from other organizations. Take someone like Palango who was a former agent - he was hired by MG and has done well for us in Ontario.

To the 2nd bolded point: there's a balance. Nobody wants to give up picks but when you've got a contending team it's part of what you have to do, considering the cirumstances e.g. organizational strengths, readiness of guys in the AHL. IMO we've walked that line pretty well. The one thing I would say is that we could stand to recover some more picks out of trades we do make.

A lot of those guys you mentioned were signed early on in this regime, probably when the reorganization of the scouting was still ongoing. And as Tiranis mentioned, we've really only started stocking up on forward talent recently. Really, though, B. Sweatt and Oberg weren't bad for free signings - one was a serviceable AHL farmhand and the other netted us Chris Higgins. With every signing it feels as though they're improving, so that's another reason to be optimistic on this front.

 

[F A N]

I think that when Gillis' came aboard and talked so much about scouting and development we were all hoping that the days of poor drafting would be over, but as it stands, we are still hoping for improvements. Still, Gillis has at least been somewhat active in identifying the problem and trying to address the problem. When Gillis came on board, he expanded the scouting staff and increased attention on scouting unsigned college free agent. Tanev and Volpatti were direct results of that change. The team's WHL scouting not so good? Gillis decided team's WHL scouting and assigned Delorme to oversee the team's WHL scouting.

Results and speed of change aside, at least Gillis seems to be making active and constructive moves to address noticeable flaws with the team.

Who the *bleep* recommends: Stefan Schneider, Kellan Tochkin, Bill Sweatt, Eric Walsky, Evan Oberg... and the list goes on

They were the equivalent of having a free late round picks and Oberg ended up being a throw-in the trade to acquire Higgins (I won't count Tochkin).

Yann Sauve got beat out by Ryan Stanton for at least a sixth d-man slot.

Yann Sauve got run over by a car and was never the same.

 

[Tiranis]

Schneider was **** but:

Tochkin - PPG in his rookie year at 17 (first draft eligible year), signed by Canucks that summer. This is the type of player you draft in the late rounds so there's nothing wrong with getting one for free. Never improved but it was a very good gamble.

Sweatt - Highly desired free agent. Canucks were far from the only team interested. Two-way player and finished college with good numbers. Hell, he managed a few NHL games, even.

Walsky - Amazing skater with good numbers. Again, was a guy who quite a few teams were in on. I wasn't a fan of it but whatever, there were some tools there.

Oberg - 27 points in his 2nd college season, excellent numbers for a D-man. Never panned out but at the time he looked like a great signing and a legitimate prospect. This guy was signed by the same reasoning as they signed Tanev later on.

As far as Sweatt and Walsky, look at a guy like Antoine Laganiere who was a highly desired free agent out of college last season. Teams were fighting over him but 4 games into his AHL career he doesn't look like anything special.

 

[Bertie]

Put it any way you like.

Our talent discovery at all levels has been poor for at least the last 5 years. The Sedins and the rest of our core will be required to carry this team for at least another 3 years and if they are successful it could be longer.

 

[604]

I think people need to realize that amateur scouting isn't the problem.

1 - It's not our scouts' jobs to make sure that the AHL is stocked with quality prospects. Good AHL teams often are loaded with career AHLers like Darren Haydar and not quality young NHLers. Look at EDM's farm team last year, they actually got better after Hall, RNH, and Eberle left.

2 - You can't complain about amateur scouting in relation to our top 6. We've traded an entire 2nd line (Umberger - Hodgson - Grabner) and basically only have Zach Kassian to show for it. We also elected not to keep Mason Raymond who is a top 9 player anywhere.

You want to play a game, build a team with only our draft picks and UFA prospect signings, and compare it to other teams. I think you'll find we rank pretty highly among teams who haven't been able to draft 1st overall.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Umberger - Kesler - Grabner
Raymond - Hodgson - Hansen
Cooke - Schroeder - Brown
J. Ruutu

Edler - Tanev
Allen - Bieksa
Connauton - Corrado
Ohlund

Schneider

I'm not saying we'd be the best, and sure I'd love to see Kopitar on the 2nd line, but overall, it's pretty good which is a little startling seeing as how we've been trading away a lot of picks in an effort to be competitive for about 12 years.

 

[DCantheDDad]

I think people need to realize that amateur scouting isn't the problem.

1 - It's not our scouts' jobs to make sure that the AHL is stocked with quality prospects. Good AHL teams often are loaded with career AHLers like Darren Haydar and not quality young NHLers. Look at EDM's farm team last year, they actually got better after Hall, RNH, and Eberle left.

2 - You can't complain about amateur scouting in relation to our top 6. We've traded an entire 2nd line (Umberger - Hodgson - Grabner) and basically only have Zach Kassian to show for it. We also elected not to keep Mason Raymond who is a top 9 player anywhere.

You want to play a game, build a team with only our draft picks and UFA prospect signings, and compare it to other teams. I think you'll find we rank pretty highly among teams who haven't been able to draft 1st overall.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Umberger - Kesler - Grabner
Raymond - Hodgson - Hansen
Cooke - Schroeder - Brown
J. Ruutu

Edler - Tanev
Allen - Bieksa
Connauton - Corrado
Ohlund

Schneider

I'm not saying we'd be the best, and sure I'd love to see Kopitar on the 2nd line, but overall, it's pretty good which is a little startling seeing as how we've been trading away a lot of picks in an effort to be competitive for about 12 years.

That is a really good point. I havent looked at the prospect lineup that way before. Although having Kesler and Umberger as linemates

 

[Betamax*]

No kidding! Garrisson is a complete and utter bust! What a ****show that was......wait, what?
-For some reason pro scouting gets no credit for this one even though they staked their reputation on it by signing him to a long term contract before he even played a game here.

Higgins - what a mess....uh, wait, nope

Lapierre...

Malhotra...

Booth was as advertised before he broke himself

Ballard was bad, but i'd be curious to see how he would have done under a dift. coach

Who else has pro scouting just "killed" us with?

Both Booth and Ballard during were and are presently, literally and figuratively speaking, the Killer Bs' for the Canucks ... they occupied about ~8.5M of AAV without providing much utility at all to the team.

 

[PhilMick]

If they had any say in this, this is a huge red flag. His contract is bad.

People on here were CLAMOURING for Booth right up until we actually got him.

 

[PhilMick]

You want to play a game, build a team with only our draft picks and UFA prospect signings, and compare it to other teams. I think you'll find we rank pretty highly among teams who haven't been able to draft 1st overall.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Umberger - Kesler - Grabner
Raymond - Hodgson - Hansen
Cooke - Schroeder - Brown
J. Ruutu

Edler - Tanev
Allen - Bieksa
Connauton - Corrado
Ohlund

Schneider

I'm not saying we'd be the best, and sure I'd love to see Kopitar on the 2nd line, but overall, it's pretty good which is a little startling seeing as how we've been trading away a lot of picks in an effort to be competitive for about 12 years.

I weep for that defense.

 

[Outside99*]

Biggest disappointment are the Q picks

Sauve 2nd
Honzig 3rd
Polasek 5th
Grenier 3rd
Mallet 2nd

Just dreadful

PS - Pageau was picked in the 4th 2011. I saw a couple of his games (post draft mind you)after he got traded to the Sags, he was impressive. Nope, Honzig and Grenier were better prospects.

 

[Betamax*]

People on here were CLAMOURING for Booth right up until we actually got him.

I think that's a pretty good indication that "people on here" aren't qualified to be scouts either at the pro or amateur level.

 

[Alflives*]

I think that's a pretty good indication that "people on here" aren't qualified to be scouts either at the pro or amateur level.

Clearly, from their record, neither is the Canuck's staff. Perhaps a guy like Pierre McGuire (sp?) would be a better judge of talent than the current group? All teams have misses and mistakes, but the Canucks appear to have more than most.

 

[Tiranis]

Clearly, from their record, neither is the Canuck's staff. Perhaps a guy like Pierre McGuire (sp?) would be a better judge of talent than the current group? All teams have misses and mistakes, but the Canucks appear to have more than most.

I see no actual evidence of this.

Biggest disappointment are the Q picks

Sauve 2nd
Honzig 3rd
Polasek 5th
Grenier 3rd
Mallet 2nd

Just dreadful

PS - Pageau was picked in the 4th 2011. I saw a couple of his games (post draft mind you)after he got traded to the Sags, he was impressive. Nope, Honzig and Grenier were better prospects.

Grenier has looked very dangerous through the first two AHL games. I don't know how he turns out but he's showing a lot of promise — then consider the combination of skating and size. He looked like a factor last season as well in those limited AHL games. Given his age, there's still a lot of time for him to prove he's a legitimate prospect.

The most encouraging thing with Grenier is that he's improving on his weaknesses. He's getting that shift-to-shift consistency, he's becoming more physical (even got into a fight last game) and he's improving his defensive game which used to be pretty much non-existant.

I don't know why Polasek is listed as a disappointment. Mallet was just drafted in 2012... Honzik and Suave are the only ones I'm willing to buy as disappointments as of right now.

 

[Alflives*]

I see no actual evidence of this.

The proof is in the current roster. Where are the upcoming young 'core' players? We are soon to be in deep doodoo, because of the draft misses (and poor pro-trades) during the Gillis era. Yes, that is true for the bottom feeder teams, of which, I hope we don't soon become. (When the Sedins are gone- although it appears Dainiel may be gone already.) I am not arguing, but more concerned for our team's near future.

 

[PhilMick]

Biggest disappointment are the Q picks

Sauve 2nd
Honzig 3rd
Polasek 5th
Grenier 3rd
Mallet 2nd

Just dreadful

PS - Pageau was picked in the 4th 2011. I saw a couple of his games (post draft mind you)after he got traded to the Sags, he was impressive. Nope, Honzig and Grenier were better prospects.

Did you leave off Anthony and Hannay to make the list look better?

 

[Betamax*]

Clearly, from their record, neither is the Canuck's staff. Perhaps a guy like Pierre McGuire (sp?) would be a better judge of talent than the current group? All teams have misses and mistakes, but the Canucks appear to have more than most.

Yeah ... that's the thing. How much separation is there from the Amateur Scouting Department vs. The Professional Scouting Department when it comes to input in trades?

When GMMG made his infamous declaration post trade that they were willing to trade Cody for one of six younger players if they ever became available ... rumored names other than Kassian were Kyle Clifford, Erik Gudbranson, John Carlson, and Brandon Sutter, and one other player ... from various media reports. Since all of the players were in the same age range as Cody, their Amateur Scouting Staff would have probably scouted them quite extensively and provided input on who to reccomond to GMMG?

And of that list above, being a neutral GM of another team without carrying the baggage that Cody had with the Canucks and unresolved "issues", how many of those players listed above you would rather have right now on your team over Cody?

 

[vanuck]

Put it any way you like.

Our talent discovery at all levels has been poor for at least the last 5 years. The Sedins and the rest of our core will be required to carry this team for at least another 3 years and if they are successful it could be longer.

Being a little dramatic there... Demitra, Lack, Tanev, Wellwood, Samuelsson, Rome, Higgins, Torres, Malhotra, Cannata, Andersson, Archibald, McEneny, Weise, Corrado, Garrison, Eriksson, Richardson, Santorelli, Stanton...

Not to mention other guys NOT from the late rounds at the draft or signed for free.

The proof is in the current roster. Where are the upcoming young 'core' players? We are soon to be in deep doodoo, because of the draft misses (and poor pro-trades) during the Gillis era. Yes, that is true for the bottom feeder teams, of which, I hope we don't soon become. (When the Sedins are gone- although it appears Dainiel may be gone already.) I am not arguing, but more concerned for our team's near future.

The current roster has nothing to do with it. Look at their history instead. Can you definitively prove that our player acquisition and scouting is worse than most other teams though? Can you make a comparison between all of them?

 

[Alflives*]

Being a little dramatic there... Demitra, Lack, Tanev, Wellwood, Samuelsson, Rome, Higgins, Torres, Malhotra, Cannata, Andersson, Archibald, McEneny, Weise, Corrado, Garrison, Eriksson, Richardson, Santorelli, Stanton...
Not to mention other guys NOT from the late rounds at the draft or signed for free.
The current roster has nothing to do with it. Look at their history instead. Can you definitively prove that our player acquisition and scouting is worse than most other teams though? Can you make a comparison between all of them?

The proof (and I hope I am wrong) will be in a couple years, when the twins are gone. Then, we shall see how the next 'core' does.

 

[David71]

i wonder which "pro scouts" recommended gillis certain players that were question marks. cam barker, marc andre gragnani, and many more.

 

[Waveburner]

Schneider was **** but:

Tochkin - PPG in his rookie year at 17 (first draft eligible year), signed by Canucks that summer. This is the type of player you draft in the late rounds so there's nothing wrong with getting one for free. Never improved but it was a very good gamble.

I agree with the rest but not on Tochkin. I know he put up good numbers as a 17 y/o but his skating issues were extremely obvious even then. I thought it was a pretty poor signing myself. Not as bad as Schneider, but still pretty bad. I have no issues taking gambles on small offensive players, but they need to either be very good skaters or have absolutely incredible core strength/balance. Tochkin was nowhere close to having either.

Big surprise, he was a WHL signing.

 

[vanuck]

The proof (and I hope I am wrong) will be in a couple years, when the twins are gone. Then, we shall see how the next 'core' does.

If the scouting continues on the trajectory that it's been on, then we should have a good supporting group to take over in future. Pro and amateur-wise.