Recalled/Assigned: Boo Nieves to NYR

Edge

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Why on earth would you put Boo with Kreider? Mika is an order of magnitude better player and works better with Kreider than Boo would ever hope to imagine. You don't just arbitrarily put demonstrably worse players with your best players to give them better stats or move them up in the lineup. If Mika got hurt or had a frontal lobotomy then put Kreider with Hayes who is also demonstrably better than Boo. If Hayes decides to surf and try the tasty waves in Malibu than maybe Boo can play with Kreider. Until that time no. You don't destroy one line to make a mediocre pro look more palatable.

I feel like there are certain prospects that we' tend to want to keep pushing.

If they're fourth line centers, we want them to be third line centers. If they're third line centers, we really want them to be second line centers. Etc. etc.

At some point, it's okay if a player is "only" being a fourth liner, or "only" a second pair defenseman.

Yes, chemistry is a component of success. But you always have to be mindful of where you're splitting the difference on who actually benefits.

If Kreider finds chemistry with Chytil, splitting the difference on who benefits is probably a little bit more balanced --- even if Chytil is "only" a second line center.

When you start replacing Chytil with someone like Nieves, it could work, but the balance is probably going to be off. In other words, Kreider probably elevates Nieves, but Nieves doesn't strike me as the type who would elevate Kreider. So you're taking more from Kreider, to elevate Nieves.

And frankly, if we're looking at historical context, players with Nieves' numbers at the collegiate and AHL levels haven't typically translated to top six forwards. Hell, you'd even find that the third line gets a little tricky.
 

True Blue

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But with Kreider, and what I've said before about complementary aspects of their game matching up to optimize results, esp if we get the correct RW, that is prob Boo's best possible result, all things working out as well as can be hoped for.
Why stop there? Why not elevate him to a legit first line center status?
 

Miamipuck

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Dec 29, 2009
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I feel like there are certain prospects that we' tend to want to keep pushing.

If they're fourth line centers, we want them to be third line centers. If they're third line centers, we really want them to be second line centers. Etc. etc.

At some point, it's okay if a player is "only" being a fourth liner, or "only" a second pair defenseman.

Yes, chemistry is a component of success. But you always have to be mindful of where you're splitting the difference on who actually benefits.

If Kreider finds chemistry with Chytil, splitting the difference on who benefits is probably a little bit more balanced --- even if Chytil is "only" a second line center.

When you start replacing Chytil with someone like Nieves, it could work, but the balance is probably going to be off. In other words, Kreider probably elevates Nieves, but Nieves doesn't strike me as the type who would elevate Kreider. So you're taking more from Kreider, to elevate Nieves.

And frankly, if we're looking at historical context, players with Nieves' numbers at the collegiate and AHL levels haven't typically translated to top six forwards. Hell, you'd even find that the third line gets a little tricky.


I am sarcastic, so you basically said what I would without it, thank you. No sarcasm. lol

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in Boo's history where he was a top-line producer, not in any of the lesser leagues (AHL) or NCAA. How on earth can you reasonably expect him to come into the NHL and think he's a better than a 4th liner, when his history shows no such talent or production. I agree with your assertion that it's easier for a 2nd line guy to move up than a 4th line guy. A 2nd line guy is generally a top scorer in every league he's ever been in, maybe not the NHL or there's a superstar above him. Boo is not that, lets not pretend.

Kreider is an example of a player with meh college stats (relative to his tal that played better as he advanced in the pro's. I watched Kreider quite a bit in college(WJC) and it was obvious the talent was there, he had spurts where he dominated. That doesn't happen often, where a player stats become better a level up, in this case several levels.

Chytil is a good case where again the talent and ability is there. He wasn't your typical 4th liner, they were trying to ease him into the NHL. I think we can agree whether he hits his ceiling or not, that ceiling isn't the 4th line. Boo's ceiling is probably a decent 4th liner, maybe stretched to a 3rd but that's not a playoff team. On a playoff team, I think a decent 4th line center is about right.
 

bernmeister

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Jun 11, 2010
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Why on earth would you put Boo with Kreider? Mika is an order of magnitude better player and works better with Kreider than Boo would ever hope to imagine. You don't just arbitrarily put demonstrably worse players with your best players to give them better stats or move them up in the lineup. If Mika got hurt or had a frontal lobotomy then put Kreider with Hayes who is also demonstrably better than Boo. If Hayes decides to surf and try the tasty waves in Malibu than maybe Boo can play with Kreider. Until that time no. You don't destroy one line to make a mediocre pro look more palatable.

Disagree
Zib and his righty shot should be elite 1RW if we keep him.
b'c of the pending nmc thing, I'd trade him + for max 1sts.

Again, Hayes also looks to drive play both ways.
Not as complementary as as Boo actively helping CK and the RW drive the play and only coming in when, defense cheating on those Ws, there is opportunity to exploit.

And the proof of this is mixed results w/Kreider + Hayes same line both offense and defense.

On the other hand, you do it my way, you get to use the strength of Hayes further down in lineup at 2C

Anyhoo, expect Hayes to get dealt and return
possibly Zib as well if enuf on the table which it should be
and with Kravtsov projected to claim 1C from the get go next year
[leaving Nieves to 3C with Howden as 3LW]
the trade of Hayes will make that a moot point now, and likely also Krav pushing Boo down will make it moot later.
 

bernmeister

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I feel like there are certain prospects that we' tend to want to keep pushing.

If they're fourth line centers, we want them to be third line centers. If they're third line centers, we really want them to be second line centers. Etc. etc.

At some point, it's okay if a player is "only" being a fourth liner, or "only" a second pair defenseman.

Yes, chemistry is a component of success. But you always have to be mindful of where you're splitting the difference on who actually benefits.

If Kreider finds chemistry with Chytil, splitting the difference on who benefits is probably a little bit more balanced --- even if Chytil is "only" a second line center.

When you start replacing Chytil with someone like Nieves, it could work, but the balance is probably going to be off. In other words, Kreider probably elevates Nieves, but Nieves doesn't strike me as the type who would elevate Kreider. So you're taking more from Kreider, to elevate Nieves.

And frankly, if we're looking at historical context, players with Nieves' numbers at the collegiate and AHL levels haven't typically translated to top six forwards. Hell, you'd even find that the third line gets a little tricky.

focusing on the bold
all I ask is a fair shot at a legit experiment

we have already seen in 2 isolated snapshots that when paired with a W who could finish, Nieves delivered the mail, resulting in goals for both kreider and Chytil

Again, yes, that is isolated. But it is the only level of test of my theory. So far Nieves has been with Names and others. And I postulated you needed ideally to give Nieves at least a couple of weeks practice with Kreider and the ideal best available RW to develop the chemistry needed to max possible best results. That has not happened.

So far, we only see Boo look good, solid, not great/spectacular with less than spectacular talent.

If we don't get righty Nylander from leafs our 1RW should be Chytil [assuming Zib moved].

Respectfully, IMO, the flaw with your premise is you are focusing strictly on how offense is driven.

Kreider currently looks at what is coming from 2 other guys. It varies from night to night and not all are consistently on the same page. And offense is distracted b'c more time has to be focused on switching to defense immediately with change of puck possession.

While obviously only the exact same 1 or 2 plays can not be used exclusively virtually every time, Kreider will know he can rely on Boo to get his back and the other W's back on defense. That does not mean the Ws can ignore defense, but it does mean they can concentrate just that much little bit more on offense because of what Boo brings. While Nieves has a HUGE way to go as to technique, he has gifts or like Liam Neeson said in those flicks, a specialized skill set, and he CAN GROW INTO being another Jan Erixon type of F --- typically a C --- for us. Boo supports whatever the Ws are generating, fully complementary. He only comes in to chip in to the offense if there is enough pinching and double teaming that now suddenly, he is the open guy.

Sorry, I believe that given the opportunity that is a credible scenario which would work. Kreider dominates physically, a Nylander is smooth passer and also fast skater and decent shooter, and if we don't get Nylander, we see Chytil already showing moves and at 19 he will eventually fill out.

Of course, again Kravtsov next year, but til then I am adamant, pls let Quinn read this and just give it a shot.
 

Edge

Kris King's Ghost
Mar 1, 2002
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focusing on the bold
all I ask is a fair shot at a legit experiment

we have already seen in 2 isolated snapshots that when paired with a W who could finish, Nieves delivered the mail, resulting in goals for both kreider and Chytil

Again, yes, that is isolated. But it is the only level of test of my theory. So far Nieves has been with Names and others. And I postulated you needed ideally to give Nieves at least a couple of weeks practice with Kreider and the ideal best available RW to develop the chemistry needed to max possible best results. That has not happened.

So far, we only see Boo look good, solid, not great/spectacular with less than spectacular talent.

If we don't get righty Nylander from leafs our 1RW should be Chytil [assuming Zib moved].

Respectfully, IMO, the flaw with your premise is you are focusing strictly on how offense is driven.

Kreider currently looks at what is coming from 2 other guys. It varies from night to night and not all are consistently on the same page. And offense is distracted b'c more time has to be focused on switching to defense immediately with change of puck possession.

While obviously only the exact same 1 or 2 plays can not be used exclusively virtually every time, Kreider will know he can rely on Boo to get his back and the other W's back on defense. That does not mean the Ws can ignore defense, but it does mean they can concentrate just that much little bit more on offense because of what Boo brings. While Nieves has a HUGE way to go as to technique, he has gifts or like Liam Neeson said in those flicks, a specialized skill set, and he CAN GROW INTO being another Jan Erixon type of F --- typically a C --- for us. Boo supports whatever the Ws are generating, fully complementary. He only comes in to chip in to the offense if there is enough pinching and double teaming that now suddenly, he is the open guy.

Sorry, I believe that given the opportunity that is a credible scenario which would work. Kreider dominates physically, a Nylander is smooth passer and also fast skater and decent shooter, and if we don't get Nylander, we see Chytil already showing moves and at 19 he will eventually fill out.

Of course, again Kravtsov next year, but til then I am adamant, pls let Quinn read this and just give it a shot.

Look Bern, I just gotta tell you honestly, I don’t see it happening or working.

I see the attraction of having a pair of bigger bodies with elite skating up front, but I just think it would be a waste of both guys abilities and more natural roles.

If Nieves were seen as a tweener, I think the Rangers might even be open to it. But I think the team would be thrilled if they can have a speedy guy who fits a key role on the fourth line over the long haul. This is a four line league these days and if you can check a fourth line center off the list, it’s one less think you have to go out and find. If Nieves is that guy, that’s great. I think we take it, run with it, and don’t push it.
 

bernmeister

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How are Boo and Kravstov BOTH supposed to be our 1C?

I clearly said Krav is a more talented version of Boo, so he gets 1st dibs to play w/Kreider which is what = 1C status atm.

It is possible that chemistry may say otherwise.
It is not inconceivable that our expectation of Kravtsov's vision is higher than actual, and he indeed MAY be more cut out for W.

BUT at this pt, having played so well his last tourny, my understanding is he had some unofficial experience at pivot as a kid and has always been comfortable there, and with his natural gifts, AT THIS POINT there is no reason to not expect he makes 1C

In the same way using Nieves now at 1C frees up someone else to go down the lineup making it stronger, so then would Krav pushing Nieves down [even though we lose the synergy of Boo-CK to replace it with different synergy from Krav-Kreid], make the rest of the rest of the pivots deeper.
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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I clearly said Krav is a more talented version of Boo, so he gets 1st dibs to play w/Kreider which is what = 1C status atm.

It is possible that chemistry may say otherwise.
It is not inconceivable that our expectation of Kravtsov's vision is higher than actual, and he indeed MAY be more cut out for W.

BUT at this pt, having played so well his last tourny, my understanding is he had some unofficial experience at pivot as a kid and has always been comfortable there, and with his natural gifts, AT THIS POINT there is no reason to not expect he makes 1C

In the same way using Nieves now at 1C frees up someone else to go down the lineup making it stronger, so then would Krav pushing Nieves down [even though we lose the synergy of Boo-CK to replace it with different synergy from Krav-Kreid], make the rest of the rest of the pivots deeper.

Kravtsov IS NOT A CENTER!!!!!!
 

offdacrossbar

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Jun 25, 2006
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nieves is a very good player in his role. he shouldn't be expected to play up but can in a pinch with his skating. his offense is limited but that doesnt mean he cant be an important player.

hes the perfect 4C and thats fine. hes young, big, fast and cheap.

you add more talent to this roster and that 4C role could be his for the foreseeable future.

nothing wrong with that.
 

Crease

Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
Jul 12, 2004
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bern, you're a favorite of mine but if Nieves is centering the first line then there is something fundamentally wrong with how the roster is built. Remember when Erik Christensen was centering Gaborik? That was a bug not a feature.
 

The Crypto Guy

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focusing on the bold
all I ask is a fair shot at a legit experiment

we have already seen in 2 isolated snapshots that when paired with a W who could finish, Nieves delivered the mail, resulting in goals for both kreider and Chytil

Again, yes, that is isolated. But it is the only level of test of my theory. So far Nieves has been with Names and others. And I postulated you needed ideally to give Nieves at least a couple of weeks practice with Kreider and the ideal best available RW to develop the chemistry needed to max possible best results. That has not happened.

So far, we only see Boo look good, solid, not great/spectacular with less than spectacular talent.

If we don't get righty Nylander from leafs our 1RW should be Chytil [assuming Zib moved].

Respectfully, IMO, the flaw with your premise is you are focusing strictly on how offense is driven.

Kreider currently looks at what is coming from 2 other guys. It varies from night to night and not all are consistently on the same page. And offense is distracted b'c more time has to be focused on switching to defense immediately with change of puck possession.

While obviously only the exact same 1 or 2 plays can not be used exclusively virtually every time, Kreider will know he can rely on Boo to get his back and the other W's back on defense. That does not mean the Ws can ignore defense, but it does mean they can concentrate just that much little bit more on offense because of what Boo brings. While Nieves has a HUGE way to go as to technique, he has gifts or like Liam Neeson said in those flicks, a specialized skill set, and he CAN GROW INTO being another Jan Erixon type of F --- typically a C --- for us. Boo supports whatever the Ws are generating, fully complementary. He only comes in to chip in to the offense if there is enough pinching and double teaming that now suddenly, he is the open guy.

Sorry, I believe that given the opportunity that is a credible scenario which would work. Kreider dominates physically, a Nylander is smooth passer and also fast skater and decent shooter, and if we don't get Nylander, we see Chytil already showing moves and at 19 he will eventually fill out.

Of course, again Kravtsov next year, but til then I am adamant, pls let Quinn read this and just give it a shot.

Really Boo Nieves on a top 6 spot, let alone the 1st line??? What are you watching, dude has almost ZERO offensive skill. He will drag everyone on the line down.
 

bernmeister

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Look Bern, I just gotta tell you honestly, I don’t see it happening or working.

I see the attraction of having a pair of bigger bodies with elite skating up front, but I just think it would be a waste of both guys abilities and more natural roles.

If Nieves were seen as a tweener, I think the Rangers might even be open to it. But I think the team would be thrilled if they can have a speedy guy who fits a key role on the fourth line over the long haul. This is a four line league these days and if you can check a fourth line center off the list, it’s one less think you have to go out and find. If Nieves is that guy, that’s great. I think we take it, run with it, and don’t push it.

I appreciate the well intended sincere heart to heart.
I recognize it comes from an honest and good place.
We simply have a difference of opinion, and there won't be any way to prove it one way or the other unless/until my grand experiment is performed with adequate conditions [adequate familiarization skating together beforehand, and once experiment underway, a decent amount of time to sample to determine outcome, not just 2 or 3 shifts].

Hopefully some point balance of this season we will see.
Again no bones to pick w/yourself and 95+% of others here who also honestly disagree without malice, just those improperly look to give me grief.

-----------------------

Let me point out that in the isolated snapshot of a what appears to be an interrupted line change that resulted in what seems to be the only time Boo and Chris were together on the ice, that it resulted in Nieves 'carrying the mail' which resulted in a goal by Kreider. I think that is not the routine, but I see combo skating ability, esp w/correct 1RW, to = scenarios where skating forces defense to overload puck carrier and leaves good open shot potential.

In conclusion
give the kid a chance
no downside to at least try

---------

ps - I may be the only one singing this tune, but I was also a lone voice on Stepan being overvalued, which was ultimately proven correct.

Tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide.
 
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bernmeister

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Really Boo Nieves on a top 6 spot, let alone the 1st line??? What are you watching, dude has almost ZERO offensive skill. He will drag everyone on the line down.

Really.
Not true he has like zero off. skill.
Solid playmaker/passer skills given limited cohesion with steady Ws, esp of top quality. Like @Machinehead said, every time they put him on a line with a slightly better player, and guess what, not lights out, but "he shows me a little something".

He carried the mail for both Chytil then Kreider.
But he will also, with speedy enough skating Ws, lead to quality shots. Even if he doesn't convert as well as Kreider or the RW, esp if the RW is a finisher like Chytil, he will do acceptably well enough on quality chances, while not insignificantly, helping generate quality chances for his Ws.
 

bernmeister

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bern, you're a favorite of mine but if Nieves is centering the first line then there is something fundamentally wrong with how the roster is built. Remember when Erik Christensen was centering Gaborik? That was a bug not a feature.

1. There is no comparison betw Christensen who was a puffed up, overrated no talent and Nieves, who passes all eye tests except as to shot for scoring/or sniper.

2. Remember the argument. Nieves is only 1C because he would be available as regular pivot to Kreider at 1LW, not for other reason, atm. So if Avs said, hey, let's get serious, let's over-pay top $ and put Kreider and MacKinnon together, and CK is then buh-bye for a really, really nice haul. Then and in that event, Nieves falls to where he best fits with other Ws, whether immediately or eventually, probably 3C with speedy Howden as 3LW.

So in conclusion he is not arbitrarily a 1C in a vacuum, which I gather is your core concern.
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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Said the same people who said Chytil can't play pivot.
Oh, do I get more cred for adding exclaims?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chytil also is not a center. He's played center for a year. That's it. He didn't play center before being drafted. I know, because I actually saw him play regularly and followed him
 
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True Blue

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In the same way using Nieves now at 1C frees up someone else to go down the lineup making it stronger, so then would Krav pushing Nieves down [even though we lose the synergy of Boo-CK to replace it with different synergy from Krav-Kreid, make the rest of the rest of the pivots deeper.
Why not then just play Zbad on the 4th line to make it stronger with Nieves centering for Kreider?

Do I have this correct? You would severely weaken the top line to try to make the overall team better?
 

Larrybiv

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Boo has made a few nice offensive moves that resulted in goals. Confident, hard nosed drives to the net. Good on him. He seems to be reliable defensively. Another good quality. There just isn't enough offense provided thus far to indicate, that he can be anything seriously substantial in regard to playing 1st line minutes....not yet. (Lack of talent by NHL standards?)
I cannot criticize someone that is doing the best he can......he is just up against it.
Sorry Bern.......not saying they shouldn't TRY him there, because God knows we even had Vesey and Spooner there, so its NOT out of the question. A coach can do ANYTHING he deems necessary for the good of the team. Quinn is a "quintessential" coach in player development........and if that is what it takes to make Boo raise his personal bar, then why not? But, I don't make those decisions. Not 100% for, nor 100% against. This year is ALL about development and finding out MORE about the players you DO have.
Winning games is what Quinn wants to do, but at some points you have to try some things (good or bad results) KNOWING that this team is not going to win more often than they lose. If he places MORE EMPHASIS on winning and NOT finding out what certain players are capable of(in this lost season) then he really ISN'T doing what's best for the team in the long run. Not like he is Chiarelli, and HAS to make the PO's or get axed.
Oh wait........
 
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