Bobrovsky joins Elliott complaining about new smaller pads.

[KingsHockey24]

People saying "It's not big deal." probably have never played goalie before.

 

[Luminiferous]

Looking forward to when that older generation moves on. Geriatric, zero empathy folks. Not a good look, at all.

As if we have not evolved from our goalies not wearing masks. Why would one even bring that up ?

It feels like scoring is up, not sure if it actually is, but I am enjoying the start of this year. I hope middle ground can be found, so the goalies can be a tad more comfortable in net. The goalie equipment of yesteryear was sort of outragous, so perhaps slight augments can be made.

I find it Pejorative Slured, folks saying " Lets wait until someone gets injured before we look at anything". So ass backwards.

 

[sting101]

That's what they did to the current C/A (along with making them more contoured around the arms) which is kinda the problem. At some point limiting the surface area and contouring directly to the body becomes a safety issue because as mentioned by someone else in the thread shoulder floaters and elbow blocks were essentially the "crumple zones" of older C/As, and because they would float freely above the rest of the C/A they had space to absorb impact. It's also a concern of holes opening up at the elbow/bicep/shoulder/collarbone area, those were already the most dangerous parts of the C/A because they have to move a lot and there can be lots of gaps in protection if you're even slightly out of position or in motion. Those shoulders and elbows look really under protective to me in situations where you're hugging the post or moving laterally.

Honestly this whole thing is really silly, at what point are we just going to have to realize that these guys are the 62 best goalies in the world and they're actually just skilled and well-trained athletes. After the 05-06 lockout they removed an inch of width from the pads and blockers and 3" of circumference from the gloves, yet save percentages continued to rise. They shrunk the pants again a season or two ago and sv% still rose. They forced goalies to use shorter pads a few seasons ago and sv% continued to rise. Most of these reductions in gear have had little effect or even positive effects on sv% because of increased mobility, but we're now at a point where the gear is not providing adequate protection in the shoulder/bicep/collarbone area for the sake of another marginal inch or two of coverage. If taking an inch of width off the entire pads, 2-3 inches off the height of the pads, and shrinking the blocker and glove by 1-3" in width wasn't enough, I'm highly skeptical that an inch of shoulder floater is going to open the floodgates and it seems like a really dangerous risk to take.

That Lundqvist picture is the old gear, current gear looks like this:

thanks for this response and i read through some of the other discussion you had and everything you are saying is pretty much spot on. I appreciate the knowledgeable responses

The counter argument i have is that throughout this process (of shrinking some of the gear) at every stage goalies are complaining about safety and potential harm. It's not like owners just slapped some new rules without research and development. Kay Whitmore has worked with NHL goalies, he has donned the gear and taken shots in it, he has played the position at the highest level.

The commitee and NHLPA made some educated changes to pull a little more back and some guys are gonna complain thats just the nature of change. Sport as a profession comes with a certain degree of risk and danger. I'm a Canuck fan and in 1 game our star rookie Elias Pettersson got slammed on his head and concussed and Jay Beagle got his arm broken blocking a shot. I sympathise somewhat but until enough proof comes back that this is an ongoing safety issue i say stop the whining and play.

 

[J T Money]

If you have no idea how blood clots are formed don’t post like you know. This was one of the most ridiculous posts. Just cause they look similar doesn’t mean that one turns into the other.

One is a contusion in the capillarity and the other forms in your vein to try to stop bleeding.

You are correct, I meant to say Hematomas. Don't know why I typed blood clot when they're caused by vastly different circumstances.

 

[CauZuki]

Whole lotta stupid in this thread!

Welcome to HFBoards, please enjoy your stay!

 

[JoelWarlord]

thanks for this response and i read through some of the other discussion you had and everything you are saying is pretty much spot on. I appreciate the knowledgeable responses

The counter argument i have is that throughout this process (of shrinking some of the gear) at every stage goalies are complaining about safety and potential harm. It's not like owners just slapped some new rules without research and development. Kay Whitmore has worked with NHL goalies, he has donned the gear and taken shots in it, he has played the position at the highest level.

I get that but I think this case is disctinct from the others because of the complexity of the gear. I don't really remember hearing safety concerns about making the pads an inch narrower and shrinking the gloves because it was simple to do so without sacrificing safety. There were some safety concerns with making the pads shorter and exposing the knees but knee pads have helped fix those to some degree and it's still possible to fully close that gap with the pads and have full coverage. In this case the C/A have been shrunk around the shoulder and elbow which are two of the most difficult places on the body to design protective equipment for and two pretty fragile parts of the body as well.

The issue with the new C/A is that being a bit out of position leaves your shoulder or elbows almost completely exposed which is really really dangerous. You could make the same argument about shrinking the width of the pads leaving your legs exposed, but the pads were still wide enough to protect the legs and a stray puck that deflects off the calf or hamstring might hurt but it isn't a real safety concern in the way a puck (or dozens of pucks in practice) that hits an exposed or underprotected shoulder/elbow. It's not just about stingers and feeling the puck so much as risk of repeated strain and injuries to shoulders/elbows/collarbones that were prevented by the old gear.

The commitee and NHLPA made some educated changes to pull a little more back and some guys are gonna complain thats just the nature of change. Sport as a profession comes with a certain degree of risk and danger. I'm a Canuck fan and in 1 game our star rookie Elias Pettersson got slammed on his head and concussed and Jay Beagle got his arm broken blocking a shot.

RE: Beagle and shot blocking I'm of the opinion that shot blocking is overemphasized. IMO a forward dropping to his knees to blocking an unobstructed point shot in October is pretty silly and with the injury risk it's probably not worth it in aggregate. Standing up and blocking a shot with your shin pads is one thing, but these diving hero shot blocks seem pretty reckless to me with how low risk a shot from the point is.

I get that though, and you'll never eliminate the injuries fully. Most goalie injuries are hip/knee/groin strain injuries anyway so chest protectors wouldn't be causing a significant portion of goalie injuries anyway unless they're cartoonishly small. I just don't really agree with that mindset in this case because I don't think it's reasonable unless there's no alternative. Firstly I don't really get this mad dash to keep shrinking the gear, I get that it superficially looks "unfair" or too big but we just had the highest scoring season in 20 years last year and all it took was calling slashes and coaches dressing fast skill players instead of coke machines and slow grinders.

I think we have a lot of tactical changes and rule enforcement left to do that could increase scoring (and again, we just had the highest scoring year in 20 years so the idea there is currently a crisis of goal scoring is wrong) before we have to start thinking about shaving an inch off the shoulder floater and elbow blocks, these are really marginal changes in goalie surface area that have the potential to add a lot of danger. In contrast, older changes like cutting 2-5" off the length of pads and cutting an inch of width off pads/blockers and 3" of glove diameter made significant changes in goalie surface area with basically zero reduction in safety. In this case the surface area is only reduced by an inch on the shoulders and elbows but the form-fitting changes and specific places where they made cuts make the gear a lot less protective with IMO little real reduction in surface area for shooters.

I sympathise somewhat but until enough proof comes back that this is an ongoing safety issue i say stop the whining and play.

I guess I'm just not sure what proof looks like. We already have a dozen goalies including Gibson, Price, Bobrovsky, etc who have said it's likely going to be an ongoing safety concern and that they've had problems with it. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to wait until someone fractures an elbow before goalies talk about this as an issue. Keep in mind that this is also a process thing where you might not see the effects until later in the season. Starters face 1500-1800+ shots in real games over a season and likely into the tens of thousands including practice over the course of a season. It's the kind of thing where over 10-15k shots in a season that missing protection adds up to nagging shoulder/elbow injuries that don't register as "caused" by the gear in the same way a single shot breaking a collarbone will. That's probably not going to happen, but I expect we'll see a lot more cases of guys taking one to the shoulder in a practice/morning skate and missing games.

I guess that's what it comes down to me, it's not going to be 30 broken shoulders but it's going to be a lot of (IMO) unnecessary nagging injuries for guys with little to no benefit. I just have a really hard time believing these changes are going to be a signficant driver of higher scoring, and scoring is already significantly increasing anyway due to coaches rolling 4 scoring lines and developing systems to play with speed (plus 4F1D PP and slashing crackdowns). Like, I just don't get the insistence that this is just a necessary evil that needs to be done and the goalies need to learn to deal with it. That might have made sense in the dead puck era or in 2012, but we just had the highest scoring season in 2 decades and teams were using speed and creativity to beat goalies last year even with the old chest protectors. Just seems like a lot of unnecessary risk when scoring is already up and increasing.

 

[saffronleaf]

Hopefully there will be some innovations. I think form fitting is an absolute must. These goaltenders with enormous equipment and zero talent just brick walling everything needs to stop. But at the same time, you shouldn't be getting bruised every game.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Are the pads any less protective than they were say.. 10yrs ago?

 

[sting101]

I get that but I think this case is disctinct from the others because of the complexity of the gear. I don't really remember hearing safety concerns about making the pads an inch narrower and shrinking the gloves because it was simple to do so without sacrificing safety. There were some safety concerns with making the pads shorter and exposing the knees but knee pads have helped fix those to some degree and it's still possible to fully close that gap with the pads and have full coverage. In this case the C/A have been shrunk around the shoulder and elbow which are two of the most difficult places on the body to design protective equipment for and two pretty fragile parts of the body as well.

The issue with the new C/A is that being a bit out of position leaves your shoulder or elbows completely exposed which is really really dangerous, you could make the same argument about shrinking the width of the pads leaving your legs exposed, but a puck that deflects off the calf or hamstring isn't a safety concern in the way a puck that hits an exposed or underprotected shoulder/elbow. It's not just about stingers and feeling the puck so much as risk of repeated strain and injuries to shoulders/elbows/collarbones that were prevented by the old gear.

Yeah I get that, and you'll never eliminate the injuries fully. Most goalie injuries are hip/knee/groin strain injuries anyway so chest protectors wouldn't be causing a significant portion of goalie injuries anyway unless they're cartoonishly small. I just don't really agree with that mindset in this case because I don't think it's reasonable unless there's no alternative. Firstly I don't really get this mad dash to keep shrinking the gear, I get that it superficially looks "unfair" or too big but we just had the highest scoring season in 20 years last year and all it took was calling slashes and coaches dressing fast skill players instead of coke machines and slow grinders.

I think we have a lot of tactical changes and rule enforcement left to do that could increase scoring (and again, we just had the highest scoring year in 20 years so the idea there is currently a crisis of goal scoring is wrong) before we have to start thinking about shaving an inch off the shoulder floater and elbow blocks, these are really marginal changes in goalie surface area that have the potential to add a lot of danger. In contrast, older changes like cutting 2-5" off the length of pads and cutting an inch of width off pads/blockers and 3" of glove diameter made significant changes in goalie surface area with basically zero reduction in safety. In this case the surface area is only reduced by an inch on the shoulders and elbows but the form-fitting changes and specific places where they made cuts make the gear a lot less protective with IMO little real reduction in surface area for shooters.


I guess I'm just not sure what proof looks like. We already have a dozen goalies including Gibson, Price, Bobrovsky, etc who have said it's likely going to be an ongoing safety concern and that they've had problems with it. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to wait until someone fractures an elbow before goalies talk about this as an issue. Keep in mind that this is also a process thing where you might not see the effects until later in the season. Starters face 1500-1800+ shots in real games over a season and likely into the tens of thousands including practice over the course of a season. It's the kind of thing where over 10-15k shots in a season that missing protection adds up to nagging shoulder/elbow injuries that don't register as "caused" by the gear in the same way a single shot breaking a collarbone will. That's probably not going to happen, but I expect we'll see a lot more cases of guys taking one to the shoulder in a practice/morning skate and missing games.

I guess that's what it comes down to me, it's not going to be 30 broken shoulders but it's going to be a lot of (IMO) unnecessary nagging injuries for guys with little to no benefit. I just have a really hard time believing these changes are going to be a signficant driver of higher scoring, and scoring is already significantly increasing anyway due to coaches rolling 4 scoring lines and developing systems to play with speed (plus 4F1D PP and slashing crackdowns). Like, I just don't get the insistence that this is just a necessary evil that needs to be done and the goalies need to learn to deal with it. That might have made sense in the dead puck era or in 2012, but we just had the highest scoring season in 2 decades and teams were using speed and creativity to beat goalies last year even with the old chest protectors. Just seems like a lot of unnecessary risk when scoring is already up and increasing.

Thanks again for this. Nice to hear an educated opinion from a goalies perspective which i never have been thus i lack the full understanding of the finer details. It's nice that i can come on here and walk away with a better knowleadge base.

I think if the goalies make enough noise and have some evidence of health concerns they will make the necessary changes. I get the perspective of safety first i just have to believe in this case they knew they would receive some negative feedback and that it would be worth it in the long run.....it will be interesting to monitor and more so know that i know more about it.

Do you think that the shoulder pad crusade has anything to do with trying to get goalies off their knees ,stand up more and be more athletic? One thing that has bothered me somewhat with the modern style is the willingness and acceptable practice of sliding around on the knees. I do miss some of the athleticism of the past. And i say this knowing that these are overall better athletes in goal today.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

You guys keep bringing up 100mph shots like they happen all the time, they don't. You guys act like they have ZERO protection, they do. You guys act like goalies are getting injured, they're not.

The people in this thread are blowing this WAY out of proportion. It's been a month now since they've been using their equipment. Has their been ONE injury reported? No. End of discussion, until then.

Yeah again, youve clearly never blocked a hard shot lmfao

 

[MXD]

The correlation between "Stupid" and "Man Up Goalies" is incredibly high.

 

[Robert Kentwood]

Yeah again, youve clearly never blocked a hard shot lmfao

Great argument. Not one rebuttal to the facts. Love it.

At least the other person brought up the ONE injury that took place. However that one injury is 0.00001% of shots taken and therefore irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Once again, just blowing things out of proportion. Fact.

 

[Panthaz89]

I'll take a neutral standpoint and say I haven't been a goalie(not with a REAL puck at least) but if they really want it to change they are going to have to get a committee of goalies to agree in order to change it otherwise they are going to be stuck with it.

 

[HanSolo]

Hahaha I love all the people saying man up as though anyone of them would be cool taking a clapper from someone like Chara without having their body completely padded.

 

[Robert Kentwood]

Hahaha I love all the people saying man up as though anyone of them would be cool taking a clapper from someone like Chara without having their body completely padded.

Hahaha I love all the people acting like goalies are being injured left and right as if we are in goalie shortage due to pucks hitting them.

Goalies have plenty of protection, hint the lack of injuries that have occurred. Oh no, TWO goalies have complained of some bruising, stop the presses!!!

Overreaction at it's finest.

 

[sandysan]

People saying "It's not big deal." probably have never played goalie before.

change probably to unequivocally and I'm on board

 

[sandysan]

I'll take a neutral standpoint and say I haven't been a goalie(not with a REAL puck at least) but if they really want it to change they are going to have to get a committee of goalies to agree in order to change it otherwise they are going to be stuck with it.

yeah that's not how the league is run.
changes to the rules go through the rule committee which has representation from the owners and the PA. The FULL pa. The best the goalies could do it try to get the PA to take up their side, but the players wont be abandoning their whipmaster 2000's anytime soon.

 

[sandysan]

The correlation between "Stupid" and "Man Up Goalies" is incredibly high.

the rquared is 1.0

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Great argument. Not one rebuttal to the facts. Love it.

At least the other person brought up the ONE injury that took place. However that one injury is 0.00001% of shots taken and therefore irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Once again, just blowing things out of proportion. Fact.

Lmfao such an internet warrior you are, spewing your ‘facts’ yet how many times have you put on pads and stepped in net? Hmm? Oh and taken shots from someone older than a child?

I get the feeling its none lol. Keep thinking you know anything about how goaltenders pads work

 

[Bank Shot]

People saying "It's not big deal." probably have never played goalie before.

I play goalie and I don't think its a big deal.

Now you will say "But you've never faced NHL calibre shots!", and you'd be right, but I've been stung with pucks. It hurts. Not sure any of the pucks I've gotten hit with have hurt any more than getting one in the skate when playing out.

If a goalie gets the occasional bruise without suffering any kind of serious damage, I think that should be something they can live with.

 

[Robert Kentwood]

Lmfao such an internet warrior you are, spewing your ‘facts’ yet how many times have you put on pads and stepped in net? Hmm? Oh and taken shots from someone older than a child?

I get the feeling its none lol. Keep thinking you know anything about how goaltenders pads work

Oh the "you've never" argument. And calling me the "internet warrior". That's rich.

I've brought facts to the table, all you have is "well you've never played goalie therefore your opinion doesn't matter". How old are you?

I know that injuries due to shots are so astronomically low that they aren't a problem. You act like this is a big issue, though you bring absolutely NOTHING of value to your argument.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Oh the "you've never" argument. And calling me the "internet warrior". That's rich.

I've brought facts to the table, all you have is "well you've never played goalie therefore your opinion doesn't matter". How old are you?

I know that injuries due to shots are so astronomically low that they aren't a problem. You act like this is a big issue, though you bring absolutely NOTHING of value to your argument.

Didnt see you mention youve ever played goaltender

Go find another conversation to discuss considering youve never strapped on the pads that you claim you know so much about. Ridiculous is how you look.

Bye bye, welcome to the ignore list

 

[Robert Kentwood]

Didnt see you mention youve ever played goaltender

Go find another conversation to discuss considering youve never strapped on the pads that you claim you know so much about. Ridiculous is how you look.

Bye bye, welcome to the ignore list

You've never done meth, so don't talk bad about it!!!!

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Knock it off.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I play goalie and I don't think its a big deal.

Now you will say "But you've never faced NHL calibre shots!", and you'd be right, but I've been stung with pucks. It hurts. Not sure any of the pucks I've gotten hit with have hurt any more than getting one in the skate when playing out.

If a goalie gets the occasional bruise without suffering any kind of serious damage, I think that should be something they can live with.

I played for three years and even I was stung with a few pucks here and there.

I'm sure it's been that way for goalies the past 20 years. Now that two goalies have come out and brought it up yeah, I do think it's a problem. There's also a big difference between NHL caliber shots and your AAA teams. Not to mention NHL goalies play what, 3/4 games a week on average? That doesn't leave much time to recover.