Player Discussion Bobby Ryan Part VII

[JungleBeat]

Let him join Boedker in the press box.

 

[Tuna99]

Ryan is done, he just doesn’t have the compete level to be an NHL player. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player lose so many puck battles in my life. He makes Mike Hoffman look like Mike Fisher

 

[tardigrade81]

Ryan is done, he just doesn’t have the compete level to be an NHL player. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player lose so many puck battles in my life. He makes Mike Hoffman look like Mike Fisher

That or he just doesn’t want to be here anymore. Guys a lot of times find new life when they go to another team.

 

[Adrianopolous]

Worst trade in Senators history

 

[BonkTastic]

Worst trade in Senators history

Yeah, I can't think of a worse one, actually.

Even when we traded Pavol Demitra for Christen Olsson... at least we didn't then sign Olson to a 7-year deal that crippled us financially.

 

[Mark Effin Stone]

Injuries sucks man, but it will always be so weird how he had such a disapointing season 16/17 and turned into beast in the PO.. and then back to disapointment in the autumn again

 

[BonkTastic]

Injuries sucks man, but it will always be so weird how he had such a disapointing season 16/17 and turned into beast in the PO.. and then back to disapointment in the autumn again

If anything, this is perhaps evidence that his head just isn't in the game anymore.

Dude seems mentally checked out most of the time. I still don't think it's a skill issue (well... not ENTIRELY a skill issue). He still can play hard in a vacuum. I'm convinced that the majority of his decline is somehow non-hockey related. Every time I notice Bobby Ryan has a bad game (which is to say, most of the time I watch Ryan play hockey), the reasons he has a bad game seem like an issue of motivation - lack of concentration when stickhandling, lack of effort getting back in transition, constant brain farts, not noticing clear opportunities, half-assing a pass or shot, trying to lazily skate through a defender, etc...

That said, I'm not convinced he'll ever get "better" despite my beliefs on the root cause of his decline. I think this is just who he is now.

 

[God Says No]

If anything, this is perhaps evidence that his head just isn't in the game anymore.

Dude seems mentally checked out most of the time. I still don't think it's a skill issue (well... not ENTIRELY a skill issue). He still can play hard in a vacuum. I'm convinced that the majority of his decline is somehow non-hockey related.

That said, I'm not convinced he'll ever get "better" despite my beliefs on the root cause of his decline. I think this is just who he is now.

Not sure it's mental. He seems to try out there. He just can't skate. Before the sport hernia, he was actually pretty good (for the first 2 months or so he was here). Now add all the hand injuries and he can't skate nor shoot. That's a tough combo of injuries if you're trying to play pro hockey.

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

Bob just retire man you suck

 

[BonkTastic]

Not sure it's mental. He seems to try out there. He just can't skate. Before the sport hernia, he was actually pretty good (for the first 2 months or so he was here). Now add all the hand injuries and he can't skate nor shoot. That's a tough combo of injuries if you're trying to play pro hockey.

Eh, the hand thing I'll give you.

Doesn't explain a lot of other lazy stuff he does out there, though.

 

[BonkTastic]

Bob just retire man you suck

To his credit, if I were being paid over $7 mil USD per year for the next three years, I wouldn't quit my job either, no matter how bad I was at it, or how much I hated it.

Short term pain in order to be set up financially for the rest of your life. Good gig if you can get it.

 

[God Says No]

Eh, the hand thing I'll give you.

Doesn't explain a lot of other lazy stuff he does out there, though.

Is it laziness or just slowness? Again, I don't see a lack of compete. I see a lack of foot speed that makes it look like he's lazy.

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

Is it laziness or just slowness? Again, I don't see a lack of compete. I see a lack of foot speed that makes it look like he's lazy.

And how do you get foot speed? You train. Guys to busy driving his RV around in the summer tgaf about hockey. He's just collecting his paycheck his agent earned him.

 

[BonkTastic]

Is it laziness or just slowness? Again, I don't see a lack of compete. I see a lack of foot speed that makes it look like he's lazy.

It's not just foot speed IMO, it's decision making and reaction speed as well.

But that's just my view on it. I admit I could be wrong, it's just how I see him play. When he plays hard and his head is in the game, he actually plays REALLY well - like the playoff run from a few years ago. He was a beast. Injuries didn't slow him down whatsoever, he was first on the puck SO much more than he usually is, was making really smart plays, actually used his linemaes really well, respected defenders and tried to play heads-up hockey around them instead of trying to lazily skate through them... all stuff he never does in the regular season. But in the playoffs, all his bad habits go away?

Seems suspicious to me.

 

[Senscore]

Yer a bum, Bobby

 

[God Says No]

It's not just foot speed IMO, it's decision making and reaction speed as well.

But that's just my view on it. I admit I could be wrong, it's just how I see him play. When he plays hard and his head is in the game, he actually plays REALLY well - like the playoff run from a few years ago. He was a beast. Injuries didn't slow him down whatsoever, he was first on the puck SO much more than he usually is, was making really smart plays, actually used his linemaes really well, respected defenders and tried to play heads-up hockey around them instead of trying to lazily skate through them... all stuff he never does in the regular season. But in the playoffs, all his bad habits go away?

Seems suspicious to me.

True, he did "seem" more engaged in the playoffs, which like you said is suspicious. But was he that much more engaged? Not sure. Maybe there is less space in playoffs, and the game is slower much more defensive which suits Bobby.

Also, the bolded is true. Which compounds his problems when his foot speed was affected by injuries. At least he could shoot when he just had his sport hernia. Now he can't shoot effectively, which leaves him as a slow setup man that struggles to defend. Voila, you got a pretty crappy player in this day and age. He'd be pretty good in the 90's though.

And how do you get foot speed? You train. Guys to busy driving his RV around in the summer tgaf about hockey. He's just collecting his paycheck his agent earned him.

Bro, you can only polish a turd so much. I just don't think physically he can improve his skating any more than it is now.

 

[Xspyrit]

lol at worse trade in history... Is this the year Silverberg finally outscores Ryan? Maybe it will only take 500-600 games with their new teams!

I mean, if a 7.25 AAV for a player who gave you 0.53 to 0.69 PPGs for 5 of 6 years is "crippling" your team maybe you shouldn't have a NHL franchise to begin with lol

Good post, I agree with some of your points however, the issue is not that "most players decline in their 30's" which is true but the issue is how Ryan has declined and how quickly it happened. He went from elite to good to average very quickly, almost before he hit 30. Guys like Spezza and Heatley were still good players at 30 and then obviously lost a step but Bobby Ryan has not had a good season for a long time now.

Thanks but I don't know if I expressed myself correctly, it's a combination of both : age + injury history

I mean, it's already natural to decline with age but "injuries" will just accelerate the process. My father at 62 is in much better shape than my step dad who is 6 years younger, but had a big injury at work.

Bobby Ryan peaked right away, superstar from 21 y/o to 24 y/o, then after that he was "just a 1st liner" for the next 5 years. Then, he declined in his late 20's (which happens a lot when you look at NHLers, there is countless examples) as, like I said, the game became faster every year and after he dealt with many injuries.

I don't see what it is so special about Ryan situation... it actually happens to most NHL players. Decline in late 20's-early 30's. They can still be good players a few more years after that but now, by the age of 35, it's an uphill battle to be able to stay in the NHL. The game is just faster and younger.

Ryan was still putting 1st line numbers until 29 y/o
Spezza was until 33 y/o
Heatley was until 31 yo

Do you see huge differences? Spezza "only" dealt with back problems so he "lasted" a bit longer. His skating/mobility was not affected the way it did for Heatley and Ryan.

Also, you say "Ryan has not had a good season for a long time now". He had a great season in 2015-16 which is 3-4 years ago and monster playoffs in 2017, which is 2-3 years ago. Sure, he hasn't put 1st line numbers since but the only guys who did it on this team are Duchene, Hoffman and Stone, who are pretty close to elite forwards. Turris (who seems to have declined at the same age as Ryan) in 2016-17 and Dzingel before being traded last year.

Ryan put 0.53 and 0.54 PPGs the last 2 years which is close to ~45 pts per season, so really just 10 points under low 1st line numbers... This really isn't that bad considering the team he plays on, his TOI, age, injury history, etc. Put him with 2 two top-6 forwards and I guarantee you that he'd score over 50 points.

NHLers are not robots, they are athletes yes but they are subject to same gravitational reality. Nothing really stays the same.

And yeah, if you're comparing any player with HOFers and exceptions like you did with Alfie and in your response to JD1, it's not going to allow you to draw good conclusions

I really believe the sports hernia injury he had in .....what, 2015? ... has had the biggest impact on his play.

Very true, considering his injury history, it's already good that he's still able to play in the NHL. IMO, it's only because of above average skill/vision/IQ because his mobility/skating and hands took a hit.

 

[Six Assets]

Yeah, I can't think of a worse one, actually.

Even when we traded Pavol Demitra for Christen Olsson... at least we didn't then sign Olson to a 7-year deal that crippled us financially.

hoffman for boedker is worse

 

[SpezDispenser]

He cant stay on his skates, it's beyond annoying at this point.

 

[SensFactor]

Stone for Brannstrom might be the worst trade in Sens history if the kid doesn't pan out. Not getting at least an additional pick could come back and bite Ottawa.

 

[SPF6ty9]

lol at worse trade in history... Is this the year Silverberg finally outscores Ryan? Maybe it will only take 500-600 games with their new teams!

I mean, if a 7.25 AAV for a player who gave you 0.53 to 0.69 PPGs for 5 of 6 years is "crippling" your team maybe you shouldn't have a NHL franchise to begin with lol




Thanks but I don't know if I expressed myself correctly, it's a combination of both : age + injury history

I mean, it's already natural to decline with age but "injuries" will just accelerate the process. My father at 62 is in much better shape than my step dad who is 6 years younger, but had a big injury at work.

Bobby Ryan peaked right away, superstar from 21 y/o to 24 y/o, then after that he was "just a 1st liner" for the next 5 years. Then, he declined in his late 20's (which happens a lot when you look at NHLers, there is countless examples) as, like I said, the game became faster every year and after he dealt with many injuries.

I don't see what it is so special about Ryan situation... it actually happens to most NHL players. Decline in late 20's-early 30's. They can still be good players a few more years after that but now, by the age of 35, it's an uphill battle to be able to stay in the NHL. The game is just faster and younger.

Ryan was still putting 1st line numbers until 29 y/o
Spezza was until 33 y/o
Heatley was until 31 yo

Do you see huge differences? Spezza "only" dealt with back problems so he "lasted" a bit longer. His skating/mobility was not affected the way it did for Heatley and Ryan.

Also, you say "Ryan has not had a good season for a long time now". He had a great season in 2015-16 which is 3-4 years ago and monster playoffs in 2017, which is 2-3 years ago. Sure, he hasn't put 1st line numbers since but the only guys who did it on this team are Duchene, Hoffman and Stone, who are pretty close to elite forwards. Turris (who seems to have declined at the same age as Ryan) in 2016-17 and Dzingel before being traded last year.

Ryan put 0.53 and 0.54 PPGs the last 2 years which is close to ~45 pts per season, so really just 10 points under low 1st line numbers... This really isn't that bad considering the team he plays on, his TOI, age, injury history, etc. Put him with 2 two top-6 forwards and I guarantee you that he'd score over 50 points.

NHLers are not robots, they are athletes yes but they are subject to same gravitational reality. Nothing really stays the same.

And yeah, if you're comparing any player with HOFers and exceptions like you did with Alfie and in your response to JD1, it's not going to allow you to draw good conclusions



Very true, considering his injury history, it's already good that he's still able to play in the NHL. IMO, it's only because of above average skill/vision/IQ because his mobility/skating and hands took a hit.

I think all we can really draw is that not all players are made equal. Some will hit the wall sooner than others, and it's likely that the athleticism they had to begin with, their work ethic in training, and the injuries they sustain all play apart. People will probably look back at the type of players that guys like Ryan and Spezza are...high skill guys with limited on-ice athleticism, and see them as having a shorter shelf life than the Alfredsson's and the Bergeron's.

It's still kind of interesting to see players like Matt Cullen and Jason Chimera stick around the league so long despite their limited skill set. I guess the commonality you see there is their elite speed and high work ethic.

But ya, unfortunately with the situation of the Alfie fiasco and then the rushed trade I feel like we never really did proper due diligence on Ryan and ended up in a no-win scenario when it came time to give him a contract. He's our Chris Davis without the PEDs.

 

[SPF6ty9]

hoffman for boedker is worse

God all these trades are so bad. It's like arguing which was worse, getting punched, kicked, or a tennis ball thrown at our balls.

With the benefit of hindsight, put me down for the kick to the balls: Duchene trade. With Stone trade pending.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

God all these trades are so bad. It's like arguing which was worse, getting punched, kicked, or a tennis ball thrown at our balls.

With the benefit of hindsight, put me down for the kick to the balls: Duchene trade. With Stone trade pending.

Lots of bad trades .. losing Stone may have hurt the rebuild the most vs losing Karlsson because of Chabot. The Duchene acquisition trade was idiotic team "ready to compete" evaluation and cost us at least 2 1st round picks. The Hoffman trade really is signature Dorion. Very hard to pick the worst

 

[Do Make Say Think]

If San Jose doesn't have a good year and we get another high pick in the next draft, the Karlsson trade might end up being great for us. Norris seems like a legit 2nd/3rd C and Balcers is decent.

Hoffman for Boedker is probably the worst trade ever for this franchise. At least Stone got us a legit prospect back.

 

[Xspyrit]

I think all we can really draw is that not all players are made equal. Some will hit the wall sooner than others, and it's likely that the athleticism they had to begin with, their work ethic in training, and the injuries they sustain all play apart. People will probably look back at the type of players that guys like Ryan and Spezza are...high skill guys with limited on-ice athleticism, and see them as having a shorter shelf life than the Alfredsson's and the Bergeron's.

It's still kind of interesting to see players like Matt Cullen and Jason Chimera stick around the league so long despite their limited skill set. I guess the commonality you see there is their elite speed and high work ethic.

But ya, unfortunately with the situation of the Alfie fiasco and then the rushed trade I feel like we never really did proper due diligence on Ryan and ended up in a no-win scenario when it came time to give him a contract. He's our Chris Davis without the PEDs.

Great post, thank you

It seems that guys that relies more on skill than athleticism (Havlat, Gaborik, Ryan, Heatley, Spezza+++) might decline faster because they can't afford to lose much of their "athleticism". The Bergerons and Alfies are exceptional players. Cullen is a great example, I think it really lies down to how much your body can take in the end. Moblity is important and you need to have it in spades, so when you lose some, you still stay efficient.

Ideally, Sens would have signed Ryan 6.0-6.5 x 5 years which would have been perfect but realistically, I don't think Ottawa had any leverage to be able to do that. He would have went on the UFA market and get 7 x 7 easily. Most teams are not scared to give contracts like that because they are profitable enough and worse case scenario, the player will be bought out, buried (see Leafs and Habs who did it several times) or even traded in a "financial deal". Habs currently have Alzner, Weise and Peca in the AHL. It's not going to hurt much the 100+ M$ in profit they make every year, and not even talking about Evenko which is a money printing machine.

They could have flipped him back before extending him too, could even have had a package with much better results than what Anaheim got.