Player Discussion Bobby Ryan Part VII

[danielpalfredsson]

And the phaneuf trade was bad. Done purely to put gaborik on ltir and save real money.

As far as a trade to improve the team, there is no realistic option to trade Ryan can accomplish that. They'd have to retain and or take a cap dump. So they're left with Ryan's salary, plus a lesser player for a guy that can still put up points.

They need vets on that team. And Ryan is one. Just overpaid.

I don't see how that addresses what I posted though.

What is being argued is whether or not another NHL team would take Ryan for free half retained, and whether the Senators would rather keep Ryan at 7.5M in salary, or save money by dealing him half retained.

If Ryan right now as a 32 year old 40 point winger was a UFA, do you think the Senators would offer him a 3 year 3.625M extension with 1M in lockout bonuses? (We'll actually 3.75 since they only care about cash)

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

I don't see how that addresses what I posted though.

What is being argued is whether or not another NHL team would take Ryan for free half retained, and whether the Senators would rather keep Ryan at 7.5M in salary, or save money by dealing him half retained.

If Ryan right now as a 32 year old 40 point winger was a UFA, do you think the Senators would offer him a 3 year 3.625M extension with 1M in lockout bonuses? (We'll actually 3.75 since they only care about cash)

Right now they might because they need vets to insulate their rookies. But they probably wouldn't want to pay that much given how injury prone he is.

I'm arguing that the sens teading Ryan at half retained doesn't make sense because they'd need to pay someone else to replace him anyway. Since I personally believe you need a group of vets to guide rookie players.

Might as well just hold onto him.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Right now they might because they need vets to insulate their rookies. But they probably wouldn't want to pay that much given how injury prone he is.

I'm arguing that the sens teading Ryan at half retained doesn't make sense because they'd need to pay someone else to replace him anyway. Since I personally believe you need a group of vets to guide rookie players.

Might as well just hold onto him.

A veteran can be signed for 1M if that is the only qualification. Magnus Paajarvi is a veteran.

The point is, if the Sens would not sign Ryan to a 3 year 3.75M contract with a 1M lockout bonus, it is illogical to assume that there is a market for Ryan half retained because by not capitalizing on that market and ridding themselves of 3 years @ 3.75M of salary, the Senators are doing the equivalent of what they'd be doing if thet chose to sign Ryan go that amount.

Point is, it doesn't make sense that a team would take Ryan half retained because if there was a team out there willing to do it, it is logical to assume Ottawa would have moved him by now.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

A veteran can be signed for 1M if that is the only qualification. Magnus Paajarvi is a veteran.

The point is, if the Sens would not sign Ryan to a 3 year 3.75M contract with a 1M lockout bonus, it is illogical to assume that there is a market for Ryan half retained because by not capitalizing on that market and ridding themselves of 3 years @ 3.75M of salary, the Senators are doing the equivalent of what they'd be doing if thet chose to sign Ryan go that amount.

Point is, it doesn't make sense that a team would take Ryan half retained because if there was a team out there willing to do it, it is logical to assume Ottawa would have moved him by now.

O that we can agree

 

[Tuna99]

In the pre-season I made a bet that Chiasson would have more goals then Bobby Ryan this season. Some member accepted the bet, and now they better hope for a Bobby Ryan phone-call to Chiasson for scoring tips. I am up $100, an insulting letter to Bobby Ryan, and Bert will have to cancel his membership. Why bet on Bobby Ryan ever? ::

BONKTASTIC: “I'll put $50 actual, real life, Canadian dollars on Ryan having a higher GPG, if you want to actually put some skin in the game on this.” (I accepted this bet and will donate the money to the taps at the Big Rig)

THEBRADYBUNCH: “If you're right, I will delete my account and write a letter to Bobby Ryan outlining how his ****ty play cost me, and I will donate $50 to a charity of your choice. If you're wrong, you just write a complimentary letter to Ryan.” (Again the charity of my choice are the taps at the Big Rig Brewery. Can’t wait.)

BERT: Ill bet my membership on it. (Cool Bert, enjoy your last few months on HFboards, I’ll buy you a Beer at the Big Rig with Bontastic and Bradybunches money to ease the sting of defeat.

Bradybunch, Bert and Bontastic - time to own up and pay up.

You guys bet on Bobby Ryan and lost, just like to many before you.

PM me boys for payment. You made the bets not me, so you gotta honour them

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Bradybunch, Bert and Bontastic - time to own up and pay up.

You guys bet on Bobby Ryan and lost, just like to many before you.

PM me boys for payment. You made the bets not me, so you gotta honour them

Nice.

 

[JungleBeat]

I wouldn’t trust Bobby Ryan to do anything. The guy just sucks and is butter soft.

Lol at winning the bet.

 

[Stylizer1]

SNAPSHOTS: The Senators have been pleased with what they've seen from Bobby Ryan

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

He’s honestly been horrendous. At this point he’s just mailing it in.

 

[Senovision]

He’s honestly been horrendous. At this point he’s just mailing it in.

We get to watch 3 more seasons of him mailing it in.

 

[JungleBeat]

What an absolutely pathetic player. Boro I can at least respect.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

He's been on cruise control ever since he signed that contract.

 

[Tuna99]

His PP dive for the puck and his stick flying out of his hand, it’s embarrassing for me to see a hockey player that desperate to not try that they make a big show With the wild stab to give the appearance of effort when in reality Ryan doesn’t want to back check because he knows he’ll just be embarrassed with his speed but more importantly his brain automatically selected the lazy play which is why Ryan has never been any good for Ottawa, and never will be any good.

 

[TheDebater]

I have always liked Bobby Ryan, but it is actually sad to see how bad his game has become at such an early age, for such a high draft pick. In comparison, Alfie who was drafted much later started having his best seasons once he crossed the other side of 30 and remained a very good player until he retired. Age should not really be looked at as a defining factor because Alfie (and others) is proof that you can be amazing even in your 30's. The difference is Alfie, for example, remained competitive and the way he played was always so intense and confident that he never gave us a reason to question his age. Ryan just looks slow, lacks confidence, seems like he is a step behind the play all the time, and lacks something. His hands are still amazing though and he has that raw skill but there is just something wrong and off with him.

Just for the sake of curiosity I went back and did some research on all the players selected 2nd overall since 2000. I needed to know if we are the only team who has had such crap luck with a player drafted that high, and here is what I found:

Players drafted 2nd overall since 2000, the numbers represent the amount of points in the amount of games played and in brackets the points per game which gives a better understanding since there are factors like injuries and lack of games played:

2000: Heatley 791 in 869 (0.91 ppg)
2001: Spezza 916 in 1070 (0.85 ppg)
2002: K. Lehtonen N/A (goalie)
2003: E. Staal 979 in 1184 (0.82 ppg)
2004: Malkin 1003 in 854 (1.17 ppg)
2005: Ryan 551 in 818 (0.67 ppg)
2006: J. Staal 514 in 903 (0.56 ppg)
2007: Van Riemsdyk 443 in 683 (0.64 ppg)
2008: Doughty 474 in 862 (0.54 ppg) (Defenseman)
2009: Hedman 426 in 705 (0.60 ppg) (Defenseman)
2010: Seguin 591 in 684 (0.86 ppg)
2011: Landeskog 423 in 588 (0.71ppg)
2012: R. Murray N/A (Defenseman)
2013: Barkov N/A
2014: S. Reinhart N/A
2015: Eichel N/A
2016: Laine N/A
2017: Patrick N/A
2018: Svechnikov N/A
2019: Kakko N/A

In order to keep it somewhat "fair", I only listed the totals for players who played a minimum of 500 games, as it gives a slightly more realistic comparison. Here is how they ranked in PPG:

1. Malkin (1.17 ppg)
2. Heatley (0.91 ppg)
3. Seguin (0.86 ppg)
4. Staal (0.82 ppg)
5. Spezza (0.85 ppg)
6. Landeskog (0.71ppg)
7. Ryan (0.67 ppg) <----------------- our guy
8. Van Riemsdyk (0.64 ppg)
9. Hedman (0.60 ppg)
10. J. Staal (0.56 ppg)
11. Doughty (0.54 ppg)

The only guys Ryan has a better career PPG are two defenseman drafted 3-4 years later, and two forwards also drafted later (Staal and JVR). My next question? Is Ryan currently a better player than Van Riemsdyk and J. Staal? Ryan is 32, Staal is 31, JVR is 30.

The past 3 seasons for each player:

Ryan:
2016-2017: 25 pts in 65 gp
2017-2018: 33pts in 62 gp
2018-2019: 42 pts in 78 gp

Staal:
2016-2017: 45 pts in 75 gp
2017-2018: 46 pts in 79 gp
2018-2019: 28 pts in 50 gp

Van Riemsdyk:
2016-2017: 62 pts in 82 gp
2017-2018: 54 pts in 81 gp
2018-2019: 48 pts in 66 gp

Points obviously are not everything, but I will not pretend that I have watched enough of J. Staal and JVR the past few seasons to really judge them but from what I have seen they seem to still have more to offer than our poor Bob Ryan. Another factor to consider is their salaries, Staal's cap hit is only 6 million, JVR makes 7 million and Ryan makes 7.25 million.

I guess the question now, is Bobby Ryan "finished" and what has caused his demise, has he always been over rated due to his status as a 2nd overall pick, or have injuries really affected his game overall? Stay Tuned...

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I've actually been genuinely surprised with how not completely terrible he's been.

 

[SensFactor]

Ryan still has the hands and hockey iq to put up points consistently, however he can't stay on his feet long enough most of the time. He falls easier each year.

 

[Xspyrit]

I have always liked Bobby Ryan, but it is actually sad to see how bad his game has become at such an early age, for such a high draft pick. In comparison, Alfie who was drafted much later started having his best seasons once he crossed the other side of 30 and remained a very good player until he retired. Age should not really be looked at as a defining factor because Alfie (and others) is proof that you can be amazing even in your 30's. The difference is Alfie, for example, remained competitive and the way he played was always so intense and confident that he never gave us a reason to question his age. Ryan just looks slow, lacks confidence, seems like he is a step behind the play all the time, and lacks something. His hands are still amazing though and he has that raw skill but there is just something wrong and off with him.

Just for the sake of curiosity I went back and did some research on all the players selected 2nd overall since 2000. I needed to know if we are the only team who has had such crap luck with a player drafted that high, and here is what I found:

Players drafted 2nd overall since 2000, the numbers represent the amount of points in the amount of games played and in brackets the points per game which gives a better understanding since there are factors like injuries and lack of games played:

2000: Heatley 791 in 869 (0.91 ppg)
2001: Spezza 916 in 1070 (0.85 ppg)
2002: K. Lehtonen N/A (goalie)
2003: E. Staal 979 in 1184 (0.82 ppg)
2004: Malkin 1003 in 854 (1.17 ppg)
2005: Ryan 551 in 818 (0.67 ppg)
2006: J. Staal 514 in 903 (0.56 ppg)
2007: Van Riemsdyk 443 in 683 (0.64 ppg)
2008: Doughty 474 in 862 (0.54 ppg) (Defenseman)
2009: Hedman 426 in 705 (0.60 ppg) (Defenseman)
2010: Seguin 591 in 684 (0.86 ppg)
2011: Landeskog 423 in 588 (0.71ppg)
2012: R. Murray N/A (Defenseman)
2013: Barkov N/A
2014: S. Reinhart N/A
2015: Eichel N/A
2016: Laine N/A
2017: Patrick N/A
2018: Svechnikov N/A
2019: Kakko N/A

In order to keep it somewhat "fair", I only listed the totals for players who played a minimum of 500 games, as it gives a slightly more realistic comparison. Here is how they ranked in PPG:

1. Malkin (1.17 ppg)
2. Heatley (0.91 ppg)
3. Seguin (0.86 ppg)
4. Staal (0.82 ppg)
5. Spezza (0.85 ppg)
6. Landeskog (0.71ppg)
7. Ryan (0.67 ppg) <----------------- our guy
8. Van Riemsdyk (0.64 ppg)
9. Hedman (0.60 ppg)
10. J. Staal (0.56 ppg)
11. Doughty (0.54 ppg)

The only guys Ryan has a better career PPG are two defenseman drafted 3-4 years later, and two forwards also drafted later (Staal and JVR). My next question? Is Ryan currently a better player than Van Riemsdyk and J. Staal? Ryan is 32, Staal is 31, JVR is 30.

The past 3 seasons for each player:

Ryan:
2016-2017: 25 pts in 65 gp
2017-2018: 33pts in 62 gp
2018-2019: 42 pts in 78 gp

Staal:
2016-2017: 45 pts in 75 gp
2017-2018: 46 pts in 79 gp
2018-2019: 28 pts in 50 gp

Van Riemsdyk:
2016-2017: 62 pts in 82 gp
2017-2018: 54 pts in 81 gp
2018-2019: 48 pts in 66 gp

Points obviously are not everything, but I will not pretend that I have watched enough of J. Staal and JVR the past few seasons to really judge them but from what I have seen they seem to still have more to offer than our poor Bob Ryan. Another factor to consider is their salaries, Staal's cap hit is only 6 million, JVR makes 7 million and Ryan makes 7.25 million.

I guess the question now, is Bobby Ryan "finished" and what has caused his demise, has he always been over rated due to his status as a 2nd overall pick, or have injuries really affected his game overall? Stay Tuned...

Alfie is more the exception than the norm. If you want to look at a more comparable career trajectory, look at Corey Perry for example. And that is the case for many players who have slowed down because of injuries... Look no further than the guys before him on your list...

Heatley hasn't been effective since 2010-11 and a massive anchor contract for SJ then the Wild (like uch more than Ryan, if you realize that the cap went up a lot since)

Spezza declined vastly 3 years ago, massive anchor the last 2 years of his 4 years contract

Eric Staal had a big decline his last 3 years with the Canes but had a surprising resurgence with the Wild. Not sure about his injury history though

Malkin is a generational player, would have went 1st OA in most drafts but that draft somehow had 2 of the greatest in history with Ovie.

Bobby Ryan was a heck of a player when he was young, healthier and the game was slower in general. He's now 32 and has a relatively long injury history, notably his hands that made him lose his sniping ability.

He still posted ~0.7 PPG in his first 3 years in Ottawa, which is/was 1st line production. In his 4th year he struggled with a crapload of injuries but totally redeemed himself with monster playoffs, which allowed the Sens to pass the Bruins. Without him, we lose in the 1st round and we wouldn't have had that incredible run before our shitty rebuild.

He's now 32 y/o and he has never been a speed merchant to begin with so it reduces his effectiveness overall but he can still be effective and create offense because of obvious high end skill and hockey IQ. He's like an older slighter version of Mark Stone. I could see Mark Stone become similar in his 30s but hopefully he doesn't run into injury trouble like Bobby did. Mark seems to be strong as hell so I am hopeful.

That being said, even though he declined in 2016-17, Guy Boucher was the new coach and it hurt several players offensive production. Considering Ryan's usage since (TOI/GP, QoT, most minutes from the "3rd line"), I consider his offensive production to be quite valuable. 0.53 PPG in 2017-18 and 0.54 PPG in 2018-19

This year, he has 0.44 PPG in 9 games but posting better numbers than that on a team without any 1st liner (Tkachuk not there yet, so Chabot being basically the only "starting 5" caliber player) will be quite the challenge. He would even have another point if the goal against Toronto was not called back (so that'd be 0.56 PPG). Anyway, season is still very young

He's not going to be among the best 2nd OA picks ever, but a solid career nonetheless. Better than JVR, Staal, Murray, Reinhart too probably. That 2005 draft really wasn't that great outside of Crosby, some D-men and some goalies. Kopitar was slated slower (right at our 9th OA pick!) and Stastny was picked in the 2nd round, same with Neal. Oshie was a late 1st.

That being said, for the crap that he took, he still outscores Silfverberg 7 years later lol (262 pts in 440 GP vs 241 pts in 455 GP), despite less TOI/GP and in general less top-6 TOI/GP. Noesen was waived by the Ducks and Ritchie is a marginal 3rd liner (looks more like a less effective prime Zack Smith than anything else) so this trade was really the "disaster" it was said ad nausea by the usuals.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nick-ritchie-anaheim-ducks-move-on/

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

...

Bobby Ryan was a heck of a player when he was young, healthier and the game was slower in general. He's now 32 and has a relatively long injury history, notably his hands that made him lose his sniping ability.

....

I really believe the sports hernia injury he had in .....what, 2015? ... has had the biggest impact on his play.

 

[JD1]

I have always liked Bobby Ryan, but it is actually sad to see how bad his game has become at such an early age, for such a high draft pick. In comparison, Alfie who was drafted much later started having his best seasons once he crossed the other side of 30 and remained a very good player until he retired. Age should not really be looked at as a defining factor because Alfie (and others) is proof that you can be amazing even in your 30's. The difference is Alfie, for example, remained competitive and the way he played was always so intense and confident that he never gave us a reason to question his age. Ryan just looks slow, lacks confidence, seems like he is a step behind the play all the time, and lacks something. His hands are still amazing though and he has that raw skill but there is just something wrong and off with him.

Just for the sake of curiosity I went back and did some research on all the players selected 2nd overall since 2000. I needed to know if we are the only team who has had such crap luck with a player drafted that high, and here is what I found:

Players drafted 2nd overall since 2000, the numbers represent the amount of points in the amount of games played and in brackets the points per game which gives a better understanding since there are factors like injuries and lack of games played:

2000: Heatley 791 in 869 (0.91 ppg)
2001: Spezza 916 in 1070 (0.85 ppg)
2002: K. Lehtonen N/A (goalie)
2003: E. Staal 979 in 1184 (0.82 ppg)
2004: Malkin 1003 in 854 (1.17 ppg)
2005: Ryan 551 in 818 (0.67 ppg)
2006: J. Staal 514 in 903 (0.56 ppg)
2007: Van Riemsdyk 443 in 683 (0.64 ppg)
2008: Doughty 474 in 862 (0.54 ppg) (Defenseman)
2009: Hedman 426 in 705 (0.60 ppg) (Defenseman)
2010: Seguin 591 in 684 (0.86 ppg)
2011: Landeskog 423 in 588 (0.71ppg)
2012: R. Murray N/A (Defenseman)
2013: Barkov N/A
2014: S. Reinhart N/A
2015: Eichel N/A
2016: Laine N/A
2017: Patrick N/A
2018: Svechnikov N/A
2019: Kakko N/A

In order to keep it somewhat "fair", I only listed the totals for players who played a minimum of 500 games, as it gives a slightly more realistic comparison. Here is how they ranked in PPG:

1. Malkin (1.17 ppg)
2. Heatley (0.91 ppg)
3. Seguin (0.86 ppg)
4. Staal (0.82 ppg)
5. Spezza (0.85 ppg)
6. Landeskog (0.71ppg)
7. Ryan (0.67 ppg) <----------------- our guy
8. Van Riemsdyk (0.64 ppg)
9. Hedman (0.60 ppg)
10. J. Staal (0.56 ppg)
11. Doughty (0.54 ppg)

The only guys Ryan has a better career PPG are two defenseman drafted 3-4 years later, and two forwards also drafted later (Staal and JVR). My next question? Is Ryan currently a better player than Van Riemsdyk and J. Staal? Ryan is 32, Staal is 31, JVR is 30.

The past 3 seasons for each player:

Ryan:
2016-2017: 25 pts in 65 gp
2017-2018: 33pts in 62 gp
2018-2019: 42 pts in 78 gp

Staal:
2016-2017: 45 pts in 75 gp
2017-2018: 46 pts in 79 gp
2018-2019: 28 pts in 50 gp

Van Riemsdyk:
2016-2017: 62 pts in 82 gp
2017-2018: 54 pts in 81 gp
2018-2019: 48 pts in 66 gp

Points obviously are not everything, but I will not pretend that I have watched enough of J. Staal and JVR the past few seasons to really judge them but from what I have seen they seem to still have more to offer than our poor Bob Ryan. Another factor to consider is their salaries, Staal's cap hit is only 6 million, JVR makes 7 million and Ryan makes 7.25 million.

I guess the question now, is Bobby Ryan "finished" and what has caused his demise, has he always been over rated due to his status as a 2nd overall pick, or have injuries really affected his game overall? Stay Tuned...

There are a few things that imo you are not considering

You referenced Alfie so I'll discuss him. Alfie was a very good player into his later 30s, he also was playing with a very good point producing center and on a decent team. That helped his point totals. He also left the league pretty much at the inflection point where the "it's a young man's game" started. Alfie was a very good skater, but the pace of the game wasn't really getting faster and faster as he aged, certainly not in his early 30s.

Now look at Ryan. Skating was never his strength and a game getting faster and faster really hurts guys that aren't strong skaters. His skating is average at best, it's not as bad as it is portrayed here at times, but it certainly hurts his effectiveness in today's game. The other issue with Ryan is he can't shoot the puck anymore. I've never really seen someone have that issue before so you figure it's the broken fingers / hands issue. We've all seen guys with a slower release as they age but that's not Ryan's issue. Even when he has all the time in the world, he can't shoot the puck with any velocity. If he could, we'd be seeing an extra15 points a year. 10 goals and some tap in rebounds off his shots for assists.

I dont think the circumstances of Alfie and Bobby are really comparable. Alfie wasn't dealing with a game that was demanding a weakness be a strength and he wasn't dealing with an injury driven skill deterioration either.

Bobby still has terrific hands and IQ and even with his less than average skating he'd put up a lot more points if he could shoot.

 

[TheDebater]

Alfie is more the exception than the norm. If you want to look at a more comparable career trajectory, look at Corey Perry for example. And that is the case for many players who have slowed down because of injuries... Look no further than the guys before him on your list...

Heatley hasn't been effective since 2010-11 and a massive anchor contract for SJ then the Wild (like uch more than Ryan, if you realize that the cap went up a lot since)

Spezza declined vastly 3 years ago, massive anchor the last 2 years of his 4 years contract

Eric Staal had a big decline his last 3 years with the Canes but had a surprising resurgence with the Wild. Not sure about his injury history though

Malkin is a generational player, would have went 1st OA in most drafts but that draft somehow had 2 of the greatest in history with Ovie.

Bobby Ryan was a heck of a player when he was young, healthier and the game was slower in general. He's now 32 and has a relatively long injury history, notably his hands that made him lose his sniping ability.

He still posted ~0.7 PPG in his first 3 years in Ottawa, which is/was 1st line production. In his 4th year he struggled with a crapload of injuries but totally redeemed himself with monster playoffs, which allowed the Sens to pass the Bruins. Without him, we lose in the 1st round and we wouldn't have had that incredible run before our ****ty rebuild.

He's now 32 y/o and he has never been a speed merchant to begin with so it reduces his effectiveness overall but he can still be effective and create offense because of obvious high end skill and hockey IQ. He's like an older slighter version of Mark Stone. I could see Mark Stone become similar in his 30s but hopefully he doesn't run into injury trouble like Bobby did. Mark seems to be strong as hell so I am hopeful.

That being said, even though he declined in 2016-17, Guy Boucher was the new coach and it hurt several players offensive production. Considering Ryan's usage since (TOI/GP, QoT, most minutes from the "3rd line"), I consider his offensive production to be quite valuable. 0.53 PPG in 2017-18 and 0.54 PPG in 2018-19

This year, he has 0.44 PPG in 9 games but posting better numbers than that on a team without any 1st liner (Tkachuk not there yet, so Chabot being basically the only "starting 5" caliber player) will be quite the challenge. He would even have another point if the goal against Toronto was not called back (so that'd be 0.56 PPG). Anyway, season is still very young

He's not going to be among the best 2nd OA picks ever, but a solid career nonetheless. Better than JVR, Staal, Murray, Reinhart too probably. That 2005 draft really wasn't that great outside of Crosby, some D-men and some goalies. Kopitar was slated slower (right at our 9th OA pick!) and Stastny was picked in the 2nd round, same with Neal. Oshie was a late 1st.

That being said, for the crap that he took, he still outscores Silfverberg 7 years later lol (262 pts in 440 GP vs 241 pts in 455 GP), despite less TOI/GP and in general less top-6 TOI/GP. Noesen was waived by the Ducks and Ritchie is a marginal 3rd liner (looks more like a less effective prime Zack Smith than anything else) so this trade was really the "disaster" it was said ad nausea by the usuals.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nick-ritchie-anaheim-ducks-move-on/

Good post, I agree with some of your points however, the issue is not that "most players decline in their 30's" which is true but the issue is how Ryan has declined and how quickly it happened. He went from elite to good to average very quickly, almost before he hit 30. Guys like Spezza and Heatley were still good players at 30 and then obviously lost a step but Bobby Ryan has not had a good season for a long time now.

 

[TheDebater]

There are a few things that imo you are not considering

You referenced Alfie so I'll discuss him. Alfie was a very good player into his later 30s, he also was playing with a very good point producing center and on a decent team. That helped his point totals. He also left the league pretty much at the inflection point where the "it's a young man's game" started. Alfie was a very good skater, but the pace of the game wasn't really getting faster and faster as he aged, certainly not in his early 30s.

Now look at Ryan. Skating was never his strength and a game getting faster and faster really hurts guys that aren't strong skaters. His skating is average at best, it's not as bad as it is portrayed here at times, but it certainly hurts his effectiveness in today's game. The other issue with Ryan is he can't shoot the puck anymore. I've never really seen someone have that issue before so you figure it's the broken fingers / hands issue. We've all seen guys with a slower release as they age but that's not Ryan's issue. Even when he has all the time in the world, he can't shoot the puck with any velocity. If he could, we'd be seeing an extra15 points a year. 10 goals and some tap in rebounds off his shots for assists.

I dont think the circumstances of Alfie and Bobby are really comparable. Alfie wasn't dealing with a game that was demanding a weakness be a strength and he wasn't dealing with an injury driven skill deterioration either.

Bobby still has terrific hands and IQ and even with his less than average skater he'd put up a lot more points if he could shoot.

You are over analyzing my Alfie comment. I never compared Ryan to Alfie other than to suggest that age is not an excuse as plenty of players continue to be productive in their 30's...not necessarily elite like in their youth but they find a way to still contribute. Other examples are Thornton, Seleanne, Pronger, Jagr, Marleau, Doane, St. Louis, Iginla, Roenick etc...I am going off memory I am sure if I did some research I can list many more players who were still effective in their 30's (not to be confused with having their best years, rather I am specifically referencing them being useful.)

So you are correct in that Alfie is an exception in that he had his best years later in his career but the point I was making is that elite NHL players do not simply decline that drastically once they hit 30.

 

[JD1]

You are over analyzing my Alfie comment. I never compared Ryan to Alfie other than to suggest that age is not an excuse as plenty of players continue to be productive in their 30's...not necessarily elite like in their youth but they find a way to still contribute. Other examples are Thornton, Seleanne, Pronger, Jagr, Marleau, Doane, St. Louis, Iginla, Roenick etc...I am going off memory I am sure if I did some research I can list many more players who were still effective in their 30's (not to be confused with having their best years, rather I am specifically referencing them being useful.)

So you are correct in that Alfie is an exception in that he had his best years later in his career but the point I was making is that elite NHL players do not simply decline that drastically once they hit 30.

Ya but the guys you are listing there are pretty much all hall of famers

I maintain Ryan has two things against him
1. The game is getting faster and he's an average at best skater (I would have kept Duchene over Stone for that reason)
2. There's no question that his shooting has gone way down hill and that's injury driven

On the skating thing....the guys you listed are older and really weren't aging as the game was accelerating and I think we'll see (and already are seeing) more guys forced out because they can't keep up

 

[coladin]

He was benched in the 3rd, if anyone noticed. He was terrible yesterday and DJ is not having it

 

[JD1]

He was benched in the 3rd, if anyone noticed. He was terrible yesterday and DJ is not having it

I like Ryan but I'm a huge fan of benching guys that aren't going. We have a lot of depth pushing from underneath.... can't be too hard to find 12 guys to play F that will go hard

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He was benched in the 3rd, if anyone noticed. He was terrible yesterday and DJ is not having it

He single-handedly ruined the 5-on-3 trying to force a pass through 3 Islanders... He's been decent but he was legit awful yesterday.