Confirmed with Link: Bob Nicholson Named Vice Chairman Of Newly Formed Oilers Entertainment Group

[Replacement*]

Nicely done.

How so.

Winnipeg says hi.

If a rich pockets owner with so much money he doesn't know what to do with it can be found in that ****hole I'd imagine one popping up in the much more affluent Calgary is a greater probability.

Not that it necessarily is in Edmonton..

In anycase its misleading to suggest that an owner need come from the specific region the team is in. This simply isn't the case.

 

[McTedi]

How so.

Winnipeg says hi.

If a rich pockets owner with so much money he doesn't know what to do with it can be found in that ****hole I'd imagine one popping up in the much more affluent Calgary is a greater probability.

Not that it necessarily is in Edmonton..

In anycase its misleading to suggest that an owner need come from the specific region the team is in. This simply isn't the case.

Why on earth would a billionaire throw money away. Mike Ilitch isn't throwing money away in Detroit and the wings have made him tons of money. And yet he gets free land and all of the profit and the tax payer is on the hook for 58% of the cost for the new Detroit arena...in a struggling economy to boot. These owners aren't overly generous and aren't into non profit causes.

 

[smackdaddy]

How so.

Winnipeg says hi.

If a rich pockets owner with so much money he doesn't know what to do with it can be found in that ****hole I'd imagine one popping up in the much more affluent Calgary is a greater probability.

Not that it necessarily is in Edmonton..

In anycase its misleading to suggest that an owner need come from the specific region the team is in. This simply isn't the case.

Slice it any way you want to it's just not affordable. These are Canadian teams that are lucky to turn a profit and most of that profit goes right back into the franchise for salaries. the forecasted salary cap is only going to rise. Even if you factor in box seats, ticket sales, concession, parking, blah blah blah you lose more and more profit every year to growing salaries and stagnant market. Let's face it, hockey has penetrated every market it can in Edmonton/Calgary.

So that leaves some basic maths. $300-400M arena. Go any lower and it's a tin can. I'd love for Calgary to replace one tin can with another though. So $300M that will obviously be loaned out.

Now try to make that back. Within your lifetime, of course. If your franchise made $10MM for 30 years you'd break even. $10MM is a dream. 90% of these NHL franchises are hobby clubs. Another exclusive membership. Most of them are ecpected to be money losers on average, but of course not too much. The value is in the.. value. A mill here or there. But to profit $10MM a year? Dreaming.

There is absolutely no other way for any Canadian hockey team to remain competitive. That is an economic reality. Either find cash flow from something other than ticket sales and box seats or die.

Take a look at Ottawa right now. They just got their arena, and it stunk. Now they're losing money because it's in a craptastic location with zero additional profitabilities outside strictly hockey operations and now they're hemorrhaging star players, pissing them off and lowballing them. Do you want that to be the Oilers? Again?

If you can find an idiot dumb enough to build Calgary's arena all on his own I'll show you a fool who will soon be claiming bankruptcy.

Be veeerrryy thankful we have an incredibly business savvy owner who not only has the City and the Oilers in his best interests but knows the game now and is planning for the game 10 years from now.

 

[Replacement*]

Why on earth would a billionaire throw money away. Mike Ilitch isn't throwing money away in Detroit and the wings have made him tons of money. And yet he gets free land and all of the profit and the tax payer is on the hook for 58% of the cost for the new Detroit arena...in a struggling economy to boot. These owners aren't overly generous and aren't into non profit causes.

I'm specifically citing Winnipeg. Not too hard to research how I'm making that assertion. It appears some cities do have that kind of benevolent ownership. Not like its impossible.

 

[smackdaddy]

I'm specifically citing Winnipeg. Not too hard to research how I'm making that assertion. It appears some cities do have that kind of benevolent ownership. Not like its impossible.

That arena cost $180MM in 2014 dollars. AKA tin can.

So that means about $30M more than what Katz spent. And it was a bid to land an NHL team.

 

[Replacement*]

That arena cost $180MM in 2014 dollars. AKA tin can.

So that means about $30M more than what Katz spent. And it was a bid to land an NHL team.

With no guarantees whatsoever. With the NHL even stating at points that the arena was not sufficient to house an NHL club, with the league subsequently changing its mind.

No reason whatsoever to cite that the MTS Center was built specifically to land an NHL team as it just isn't the case. It was a pipe dream, sure, but not much more likely to succeed than Copps Coliseum which never landed the big fish. For years it looked likely MTS would have the Manitoba Moose as main tenant.

In anycase i'm not convinced we're getting any great value here with a rink 3 times the cost and all of that fronted on the public dole. Good gig if you can get it.

 

[CornKicker]

Who here thinks Calgary will find some philanthropist willing to front the entirety of the costs for a new arena on a small market Canadian team raise their hand?

if the flames were for sale there would be no shortage of buyers, 7 calgary locals bought the Coyotes, since then 4 have been bought out and 3 hold majority ownership of the team. no question that if the flames came up for sale there would be no shortage of buyers and if that new owner could have part ownership of a new arena they wouldnt hesitate. no one is calgary has complained a bit about the province/city giving the oilers a new arena, mostly because they know they are next.

 

[Halibut]

Now try to make that back. Within your lifetime, of course. If your franchise made $10MM for 30 years you'd break even. $10MM is a dream. 90% of these NHL franchises are hobby clubs. Another exclusive membership. Most of them are ecpected to be money losers on average, but of course not too much. The value is in the.. value. A mill here or there. But to profit $10MM a year? Dreaming.

That's your best defense? That the teams are hobby clubs and not expected to make money? So the Oilers arent expected to spend within their means instead the City should be subsidizing their sports empire so they can run a farm team in Oklahoma that loses money and the Oil Kings which probably at best breaks even.

There is no reason a well run team couldnt make money and pay off an arena in this marketplace. Of course one with a pile of different managers, coaches, assistant managers, presidents, chairmen and co-chairmen along with various hangers on to keep employed for their work 30 years ago and several minor league teams to subsidize cant be expected to be fiscally responsible. They absolutely need government support or they'll have to set up shop in Hamilton.

 

[joestevens29]

Didn't see it mentioned, but I see Tom Renney has been named as Nicholoson's replacement.

Interesting to see how much involvement the Oilers brass will have with Renney running the show.

 

[rboomercat90]

Didn't see it mentioned, but I see Tom Renney has been named as Nicholoson's replacement.

Interesting to see how much involvement the Oilers brass will have with Renney running the show.

It's sure become quite a head scratcher how guys who aren't "smart enough" to work here end up getting hired to much higher level positions elsewhere.

 

[Replacement*]

That's your best defense? That the teams are hobby clubs and not expected to make money? So the Oilers arent expected to spend within their means instead the City should be subsidizing their sports empire so they can run a farm team in Oklahoma that loses money and the Oil Kings which probably at best breaks even.

There is no reason a well run team couldnt make money and pay off an arena in this marketplace. Of course one with a pile of different managers, coaches, assistant managers, presidents, chairmen and co-chairmen along with various hangers on to keep employed for their work 30 years ago and several minor league teams to subsidize cant be expected to be fiscally responsible. They absolutely need government support or they'll have to set up shop in Hamilton.

never saw this post before but its lol epic and worthy of a good read.

 

[joestevens29]

It's sure become quite a head scratcher how guys who aren't "smart enough" to work here end up getting hired to much higher level positions elsewhere.

I wonder if the kids had a lot of pull.

 

[rboomercat90]

That's your best defense? That the teams are hobby clubs and not expected to make money? So the Oilers arent expected to spend within their means instead the City should be subsidizing their sports empire so they can run a farm team in Oklahoma that loses money and the Oil Kings which probably at best breaks even.

There is no reason a well run team couldnt make money and pay off an arena in this marketplace. Of course one with a pile of different managers, coaches, assistant managers, presidents, chairmen and co-chairmen along with various hangers on to keep employed for their work 30 years ago and several minor league teams to subsidize cant be expected to be fiscally responsible. They absolutely need government support or they'll have to set up shop in Hamilton.

Excellent post. Bravo!! Professional sports teams have essentially become a new tax with the benefactor being a single entity instead the group as a whole.

 

[rboomercat90]

I wonder if the kids had a lot of pull.

I still don't think Renney was fired because of the kids, maybe that argument could have been made for Krueger. Renney coached the team with the future in mind. He was looking at the big picture. I think Tambellini was starting to feel the heat and decided he needed a scapegoat. You could see Renney's mood change towards the end of his final season here when it finally started to dawn on him that he might be that years sacrificial lamb. I believe he had previously thought he was more secure here because he was following the organizations plan and he started becoming pretty edgy in interviews when he realized he might not be.

 

[PBandJ]

Yes, the guy who doesn't live in this city and has his kids educated elsewhere and only steps foot into this city when someone is ready to kiss his feet really has the future of the city at heart.

Yeah, ok there.

Just as funny is smack daddy flapping his gums from out of city where he won't have to take on any financial burden placed on the taxpayers.

 

[oilexport]

This long debate on money for arena reminds me so much of The mall when built. These special projects need and deserve some amount of public money. The payback is there.

I don't see taxpayers complain when the Ft.Mac money comes down to shop at WEM and take in a game for the weekend. The hotels/food/bar industry do well....

People complained when the mall was built and given concessions.

This is a good read on the history and debate of that project, which again, is eerily similar to the Downtown district.

The numbers and payback are out of this world over time, do it Edmonton, Do It Big.

http://www.arch.mcgill.ca/prof/sijpkes/arch304/winter2001/cszasz/u1/wem.htm

 

[Spawn]

It's sure become quite a head scratcher how guys who aren't "smart enough" to work here end up getting hired to much higher level positions elsewhere.

I don't think it had anything to do with Tom Renney not being smart enough (not sure why that is in quotations?). Coaches get fired all the time all over the league. Doesn't mean they are a bad coach or even that the people firing them think that they are a bad coach.

 

[rboomercat90]

I don't think it had anything to do with Tom Renney not being smart enough (not sure why that is in quotations?). Coaches get fired all the time all over the league. Doesn't mean they are a bad coach or even that the people firing them think that they are a bad coach.

I just find it curious that we did have intelligent people working in this organization and not only were they let go but they were the first to be let go when things weren't working out. Always thought some of these guys were let go because they might have been dissenting voices or voices that offered differing opinions. You're right that guys get fired all the time, I'd just have felt better about it if some of the other guys that have stuck around would have had to walk the plank too.

 

[Replacement*]

This long debate on money for arena reminds me so much of The mall when built. These special projects need and deserve some amount of public money. The payback is there.

I don't see taxpayers complain when the Ft.Mac money comes down to shop at WEM and take in a game for the weekend. The hotels/food/bar industry do well....

People complained when the mall was built and given concessions.

This is a good read on the history and debate of that project, which again, is eerily similar to the Downtown district.

The numbers and payback are out of this world over time, do it Edmonton, Do It Big.

http://www.arch.mcgill.ca/prof/sijpkes/arch304/winter2001/cszasz/u1/wem.htm

Theres no comparison between the payback of one of the largest malls in the world that employs thousands of people with an arena that will employ hundreds. The difference in employment alone probably being 20fold. The Mall is also now 34yrs old and still kicking. The average arena these days is having a shelf life of 30yrs if that. With Arenas these days being venues that are more subject to latest needs, specs, vogues, and revenue configs. Malls are far less acceptable to this and only require more modest retrofits.
Next, WEM on a scale wasn't built in the downtown, it RIVALED the downtown. Think about that on a scale for a moment before making a comparison between a marketing metropolis mall and a relatively small arena.
Finally, WEM has resulted in swaths of real estate, city expansion into new areas, that were heavily marketed and in many cases viable at higher prices BECAUSE of the Mall. With even such places as the Mayfield Inn saved and spurred on by the Mall, that was the ticking heart for expansion going on for miles in either direction on 170st 178st, 184st, 87ave, 95 ave etc. WEM TRANSFORMED the market potential in housing, hotels and marketing in the west end.
The Dowtown arena will be a bit player catalyst (only one of many required) to even make a considerable difference in an immediately adjacent area downtown. WEM transforms for miles. A downtown Arena for blocks if that.

 

[oilexport]

Theres no comparison between the payback of one of the largest malls in the world that employs thousands of people with an arena that will employ hundreds. The difference in employment alone probably being 20fold. The Mall is also now 34yrs old and still kicking. The average arena these days is having a shelf life of 30yrs if that. With Arenas these days being venues that are more subject to latest needs, specs, vogues, and revenue configs. Malls are far less acceptable to this and only require more modest retrofits.
Next, WEM on a scale wasn't built in the downtown, it RIVALED the downtown. Think about that on a scale for a moment before making a comparison between a marketing metropolis mall and a relatively small arena.
Finally, WEM has resulted in swaths of real estate, city expansion into new areas, that were heavily marketed and in many cases viable at higher prices BECAUSE of the Mall. With even such places as the Mayfield Inn saved and spurred on by the Mall, that was the ticking heart for expansion going on for miles in either direction on 170st 178st, 184st, 87ave, 95 ave etc. WEM TRANSFORMED the market potential in housing, hotels and marketing in the west end.
The Dowtown arena will be a bit player catalyst (only one of many required) to even make a considerable difference in an immediately adjacent area downtown. WEM transforms for miles. A downtown Arena for blocks if that.

Your looking at a very small picture. Sure you can find some apples and oranges but for the most part, this is a special showcase for Edmonton that will drive the surrounding area.

-It will be on all the tourist guides right beside WEM
-The "must do list" for Edmonton now includes the Downtown
-If you can save one or two head office's from moving or even attract a couple, what's that do for long term payback ?
-The money and economy here in Alberta does not match the terrain, not much to do in Winter. WEM or a winter garden with shopping and entertainment are vital.
-Do we all need to go to Mexico to find some fun ? Hell no, this gives all the Oil workers and spinoff industry a reason to stay home and have a blast. Thier is a lot of money floating around Alberta, lets keep some more of that here, attracting that money into Edmonton from surrounding area's that we would normally not benefit.

Below is an example of what's expected so far, it may be just the start...


"In all, it’s expected the $604 million arena project would spark more than $5 billion in developments, including what were included in the illustrations – expected over five years"

http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/images-s...town-arena-district-could-look-like-1.1285395

This one is crazy, tallest skyscraper in Western Can. is before Council. This building alone dwarfs the Arena and is not part of above totals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/04/the-edmontonian-tower_n_4213552.html

 

[Oiltankjob Fail]

Your looking at a very small picture. Sure you can find some apples and oranges but for the most part, this is a special showcase for Edmonton that will drive the surrounding area.

-It will be on all the tourist guides right beside WEM
-The "must do list" for Edmonton now includes the Downtown
-If you can save one or two head office's from moving or even attract a couple, what's that do for long term payback ?
-The money and economy here in Alberta does not match the terrain, not much to do in Winter. WEM or a winter garden with shopping and entertainment are vital.
-Do we all need to go to Mexico to find some fun ? Hell no, this gives all the Oil workers and spinoff industry a reason to stay home and have a blast. Thier is a lot of money floating around Alberta, lets keep some more of that here, attracting that money into Edmonton from surrounding area's that we would normally not benefit.

Below is an example of what's expected so far, it may be just the start...


"In all, it’s expected the $604 million arena project would spark more than $5 billion in developments, including what were included in the illustrations – expected over five years"

http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/images-s...town-arena-district-could-look-like-1.1285395

This one is crazy, tallest skyscraper in Western Can. is before Council. This building alone dwarfs the Arena and is not part of above totals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/04/the-edmontonian-tower_n_4213552.html

I agree with a lot of your post, the condo development has taken off with the announcement of the arena district. It has attracted developers from Toronto to start building here (Brad Lamb) Already has two condos ready to go a 35 and 45 storey project. Then there is ultima encore fox 1/2 as well as others on the go. But Edmontonian is nothing but a pipe dream , Bcm developments does not have the cash to develop something of this scale, and imo are only pimping this to raise up their land value for their parking lot.

 

[oilexport]

I agree with a lot of your post, the condo development has taken off with the announcement of the arena district. It has attracted developers from Toronto to start building here (Brad Lamb) Already has two condos ready to go a 35 and 45 storey project. Then there is ultima encore fox 1/2 as well as others on the go. But Edmontonian is nothing but a pipe dream , Bcm developments does not have the cash to develop something of this scale, and imo are only pimping this to raise up their land value for their parking lot.

Thanks for the info. Have you heard of any river front development ? seems like a lot of people downtown could use a boardwalk or beach (i know, only 2 weeks of summer) with shops or cafe. Maybe water sports area within a park like setting ?

What about entertainment plans ? big casino or show theaters ?

 

[Replacement*]

"In all, it’s expected the $604 million arena project would spark more than $5 billion in developments, including what were included in the illustrations – expected over five years"

http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/images-s...town-arena-district-could-look-like-1.1285395

This one is crazy, tallest skyscraper in Western Can. is before Council. This building alone dwarfs the Arena and is not part of above totals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/04/the-edmontonian-tower_n_4213552.html

I've seen all the quotes, I have all the information. Do you believe, seriously, that either of these will occur.

Lets remember as well that the 5billion quote comes from Lorna Rosen who shouldn't be taken seriously in any regard. For instance with her citing economic benefit numbers for Edmonton Indy that exceeded the numbers for major F1 events in Europe. It was lmfao comment heard around the world.

You can't believe everything you here. Rosen should be wearing pom poms when she comes out with this nature of outlandish projection.

In anycase even if there is 5billion in development in immediate area in 5yrs the city itself is fronting a fair amount of that development either in fronting all the cash for the arena or for guaranteeing through city lease that Katz tower will be fairly full. But with this not being a net gain. City staff will be moving out of other digs creating a surplus of office availability in the downtown. Does that ever get factored in as a loss..

 

[oilexport]

I've seen all the quotes, I have all the information. Do you believe, seriously, that either of these will occur.

Lets remember as well that the 5billion quote comes from Lorna Rosen who shouldn't be taken seriously in any regard. For instance with her citing economic benefit numbers for Edmonton Indy that exceeded the numbers for major F1 events in Europe. It was lmfao comment heard around the world.

You can't believe everything you here. Rosen should be wearing pom poms when she comes out with this nature of outlandish projection.

In anycase even if there is 5billion in development in immediate area in 5yrs the city itself is fronting a fair amount of that development either in fronting all the cash for the arena or for guaranteeing through city lease that Katz tower will be fairly full. But with this not being a net gain. City staff will be moving out of other digs creating a surplus of office availability in the downtown. Does that ever get factored in as a loss..

It sounds like some of the big developers have identified Edmonton Downtown as the "in" place to do business right now. I don't believe the City is paying for this stuff.


http://www2.canada.com/edmontonjour...l?id=cfe87da5-14b5-4889-a391-57aa7480e1a5&p=1


I don't believe in bankrolling private business, from the sounds of it, your dead set against it in all cases. I would suggest that stuff like WEM is very much like the Arena. I believe that the Oil sands itself was funded by taxpayers until it took off too, look what happened there. I'm sure you'll find a viewpoint that the Oil sands was different then the arena too, but look at the big picture, seed money for different, unique projects makes sense.

 

[Gone]

That's your best defense? That the teams are hobby clubs and not expected to make money? So the Oilers arent expected to spend within their means instead the City should be subsidizing their sports empire so they can run a farm team in Oklahoma that loses money and the Oil Kings which probably at best breaks even.

There is no reason a well run team couldnt make money and pay off an arena in this marketplace. Of course one with a pile of different managers, coaches, assistant managers, presidents, chairmen and co-chairmen along with various hangers on to keep employed for their work 30 years ago and several minor league teams to subsidize cant be expected to be fiscally responsible. They absolutely need government support or they'll have to set up shop in Hamilton.

Or Seattle.