News Article: Bob McKenzie: Link Between Subban's Usage and Contract Negotiations (UPDATE OP)?

[Monctonscout]

PK is the greatest player we have had since Roy. I love the guy and he is a winner. But if I say he is just okay in the D-zone and not great all h*ll and brimstone is raised.

PK will be here long after MT is fired because he is a Hab in heart.

MT has done a good job with the young guys but if he does not figure out how to deal with PK he will soon be gone. Everyone says MT can not make adjustments during the game which is true..........so if he does not realize like yesterday that PK is very special he will be gone.

If Molson has any backbone he better step up soon because he is like god for the whole organization and we sure do not want another Roy saga that has killed us from winning another cup.

PK stays ........If MT doesn't learn then he is gone....simple I think

Why does Mt have to figure out how to "deal with PK"? Subban has been a better player since MT arrived and he's won a Norris Trophy. You're getting all lathered up on a media created "saga".

 

[Guy Germaine]

team canada paid tsn to stir up **** about pk, theyre trying to sabotage him

You might be on to something. They're trying to get Phaneuf on the team.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Why does Mt have to figure out how to "deal with PK"? Subban has been a better player since MT arrived and he's won a Norris Trophy. You're getting all lathered up on a media created "saga".

Habs have to figure out how to deal with MT, I say. He's hurting the team by hurting Subban. Just fire Therrien. Problem solved.

And I kind of think the fans were carrying this to the media, not vice versa. It has taken the media a while to wake up to it. But of course, it's great stuff for them now that they're finally starting to catch up with us.

 

[Fozz]

Not a big fan of François Gagnon but I have to admit he makes good points when analyzing Subban's ice time:
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/1851752/posts/162817/public

There's nothing to worry about here.

 

[Maverik]

Not a big fan of François Gagnon but I have to admit he makes good points when analyzing Subban's ice time:
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/1851752/posts/162817/public

There's nothing to worry about here.

Is he really a journalist? Why does every sentence have to be a paragraph. That itself made it painful to read.

PK should still be on the PK if you ask me..

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Habs have to figure out how to deal with MT, I say. He's hurting the team by hurting Subban. Just fire Therrien. Problem solved.

And I kind of think the fans were carrying this to the media, not vice versa. It has taken the media a while to wake up to it. But of course, it's great stuff for them now that they're finally starting to catch up with us.

I don't think we need to fire Therrien. Let's face it the guy led us to an unexpected 1st place finish last year and there's no denying that Subban had a great year.

I do think somebody needs to have a chat with him on this though. No doubt he's not handling this right and something needs to change. If MT came back with a "its him or me" type reply then absolutely I'd be right there with you. But I don't think we need to fire the guy... yet.

 

[djpass]

The P.K. situation

Just like most other people, I am constantly left wondering why the Habs coaching staff and the Management elect to play hard ball with Subban. My immediate and spontaneous reaction is to simply blame the team for seemingly trying to break their best player and possibly best D in the league.

Then I’m thinking there must be more than just P.K. making some mistakes every now and then, or the team trying to keep a certain control on the numbers of his future contract. These 2 reasons don’t make much sense to me. If those are the real reasons… then Houston we got a problem.

What if there’s something else that needs to be addressed now before it’s too late with P.K. earning the kind of money that will make him the ultimate king. Basically, what if P.K. is putting himself ahead of the team…

With all the backlash against the Habs coming from everywhere, you know this is a big situation and I’m certain that Michel Therrien doesn’t have all the power to do everything he wants with P.K. unless he gets an OK from the upper Management.

In this kind of decision (regarding P.K.’s treatment), the assistant coaches, the GM, his assistants and other hockey men, possibly even Geoff Molson and Kevin Gilmore all have a word to say and the final decision is agreed upon by a strong majority. I would also firmly believe that the vast majority of the players agree with the treatment given to Subban. They can’t do that with lots of players being against the move. That’s definitely how they would lose their locker room. Bergevin played close to 20 years in the league with some of the very best players. He knows what goes on. The Management can’t be that dumb…

What if P.K. has a strong tendency to put himself ahead of his team. What if he tends to do what he wants on an individual level rather than listen to what he’s told and play for the collective. If the team insists that all players commit to each other, play as a team and their best player elects to do his own thing more often than not, then what kind of message does that send to the others, especially the good young talent coming up ?

Hear me out now… I’m not saying that’s what’s going on. I’m only bringing that possibility on the table. I certainly hope I’m wrong. Everyone of us *****ing (me included) about P.K.’s treatment do not know what goes on inside that team. We see a superstar talent on the ice and an incredibly friendly and entertaining personality socially speaking, therefore everyone loves the guy and become his strongest PR reps.

If once inside that hockey team, P.K. has a strong tendency to put himself ahead of everyone one else, that could be a problem on the long run, especially after becoming the best paid defenseman in the league. I certainly hope that’s not the case and I don’t think it is, but if it is, then you could understand a little more the Habs’ position in this… You don’t win with individual superstars, you win as a team. The fanbase from the Jagr & Bure years of the NY Rangers know this well.

BUT OBVIOUSLY…if his treatment is only related to his upcoming contract or him making mistakes every now and then, just like I said earlier, Houston we got a serious problem…..and yes they will lose the respect of the other players on the team.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I don't think we need to fire Therrien. Let's face it the guy led us to an unexpected 1st place finish last year and there's no denying that Subban had a great year.

But it was a short season and the team clearly had a collapse in the last part of it... I wonder what it would have looked like in a full 82 games. And Subban had a great year... fully _despite_ more of this mishandling treatment in the early going. I can't help wondering how much greater Subban's season could have been.

I do think somebody needs to have a chat with him on this though. No doubt he's not handling this right and something needs to change. If MT came back with a "its him or me" type reply then absolutely I'd be right there with you. But I don't think we need to fire the guy... yet.

He seems like a pretty stubborn guy. I don't think you fix his viewpoint on Subban. And frankly, I don't want to give him any more time to do more damage. The more I see Subban "toned down", the more it hurts.

I don't honestly expect management would be that proactive, and I half believe they actually support Therrien's "plan" with Subban anyway. So I have no expectations. But the nice thing about being a fan is I can shout "Fire Therrien!" all I want from my cozy armchair, I have that right.

 

[Kriss E]

Not a big fan of François Gagnon but I have to admit he makes good points when analyzing Subban's ice time:
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/1851752/posts/162817/public

There's nothing to worry about here.

I've heard this before, it's the same thing that Therrien said. Except that they're leaving out the fact this went to OT. PK played 1:33 in OT (by the way, Bouillon got 1:57, Diaz 1:30. Out of all the guys that got ice time in OT, PK was the 2nd least used by only 3 seconds, considering Murray got no minutes), so remove that ice time and you have about 20 min of ice time including his PP time. Remove his PP time and you got 18min of ice.
This is versus the arguably the best team in the West, or at the very least one of the top contenders. So ya, that's not normal no matter how you want to slice it.
Not to mention PK actually got benched at the end of the third as if he's this super unreliable guy. A treatment guys like Douglas Murray or MA Bergeron get.
If to you, that's all good, then okay, but it isn't to me. That's not how I want to see us use our best Dman.

Why does Mt have to figure out how to "deal with PK"? Subban has been a better player since MT arrived and he's won a Norris Trophy. You're getting all lathered up on a media created "saga".

Well if you're going to credit Therrien for the Norris, then you should also blame him for this regression.

 

[Monctonscout]

Well if you're going to credit Therrien for the Norris, then you should also blame him for this regression.

Pretty hard to argue that Therrien has not been good for Subban judging by the numbers and his overall play.

 

[Church]

Not a big fan of François Gagnon but I have to admit he makes good points when analyzing Subban's ice time:
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/1851752/posts/162817/public

There's nothing to worry about here.

That. I'll stop reading this nightmare thread from now on. Grow up guys.

 

[Wats]

Habs have to figure out how to deal with MT, I say. He's hurting the team by hurting Subban. Just fire Therrien. Problem solved.

And I kind of think the fans were carrying this to the media, not vice versa. It has taken the media a while to wake up to it. But of course, it's great stuff for them now that they're finally starting to catch up with us.

Yep, fans were on this since Day 1 way ahead of the media. Contract negotiations to starting off as a 3rd pairing D to not being used on the PK to this season's mess. There's no denying the regression in his overall game when one goes from all situation complete D to offensive specialist and getting worse and worse. It has nothing to do with coaching/developing him as Therrien showed by making a 180 in terms of media praises. He was just being honest everytime he blamed Subban for losses. This suggests the use of him was always based on what him and the staff thought would be best to win...ie Bouillon over Subban in critical defense situations. This is very concerning big picture. Everything points to the Habs not seeing him as more than another Mike Green-type and developing/valuing him as such. If it ends up nasty in contract disputes and Subban gets traded I fear what return a management group who values him lowly would return. Seems like the modern more Pejorative Slured version of the Chelios fail.

 

[Kriss E]

Pretty hard to argue that Therrien has not been good for Subban judging by the numbers and his overall play.

Not hard at all actually but you'd go as far as to credit Therrien for how PK ties his shoes so I'm not surprised this is your position.

Subban came late into the season, didn't even have a training camp and played great right out of the gate. So no, I'm not going to say Therrien gets the credit.
A coach doesn't turn a player into a Norris winner. A Norris winner becomes a Norris winner because he's extremely gifted. He becomes better by going out of his way to improve his game like staying on the ice after practice (or before) to shoot pucks in a bucket to improve accuracy.
He can help, for sure, and I'm sure he did, like give him PP time and I'm convinced he gave him some pointers too. And just like he can help, he can also do the opposite.

By the way, before Therrien got here, PK was used in all situations and was very effective. He was a top 30 D in the NHL already. All this in just 2 seasons, look at the PK threads before he signed, plenty of people expected PK to keep progressing and talks of the Norris were already engaged. Maybe just a handful thought he could be in the nomination for a Norris as early as last year, but many believed he'd definitely be in it in the coming years. So, nothing was surprising about his progression to the top. No matter who the coach would have been, he'd have won that Norris.
Since he joined though, Therrien has turned him into a reliable and effective all situation Dman to what seems to be an offensive PP specialist that's unreliable defensively to the point where he isn't trusted with 4-5min left in a tied game.

 

[Kriss E]

Yep, fans were on this since Day 1 way ahead of the media. Contract negotiations to starting off as a 3rd pairing D to not being used on the PK to this season's mess. There's no denying the regression in his overall game when one goes from all situation complete D to offensive specialist and getting worse and worse. It has nothing to do with coaching/developing him as Therrien showed by making a 180 in terms of media praises. He was just being honest everytime he blamed Subban for losses. This suggests the use of him was always based on what him and the staff thought would be best to win...ie Bouillon over Subban in critical defense situations. This is very concerning big picture. Everything points to the Habs not seeing him as more than another Mike Green-type and developing/valuing him as such. If it ends up nasty in contract disputes and Subban gets traded I fear what return a management group who values him lowly would return. Seems like the modern more Pejorative Slured version of the Chelios fail.

I think that's a very telling point that people just didn't realize.
If it was indeed about molding him, then why praise him suddenly. It doesn't add up.

 

[Wats]

Pretty hard to argue that Therrien has not been good for Subban judging by the numbers and his overall play.

His overall play that is worse than it has been in years...doesn't play critical Defensive role or kill penalties or relied on to shut down opposition top forwards ES like he used to and did it well. All points to them trying to make him into a Mike Green type.

He is much better at offensive production but what does that have to do with the staff? Did they bestow increased shooting accuracy that he practiced in the offseason? Is making the decision to play Markov with him on the 1st PP unit some sort of feat? His even strength offensive production and positive influence was already top pairing quality in 11/12 and he did it playing top defensive roles unlike now.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

But it was a short season and the team clearly had a collapse in the last part of it... I wonder what it would have looked like in a full 82 games. And Subban had a great year... fully _despite_ more of this mishandling treatment in the early going. I can't help wondering how much greater Subban's season could have been.

He seems like a pretty stubborn guy. I don't think you fix his viewpoint on Subban. And frankly, I don't want to give him any more time to do more damage. The more I see Subban "toned down", the more it hurts.

I don't honestly expect management would be that proactive, and I half believe they actually support Therrien's "plan" with Subban anyway. So I have no expectations. But the nice thing about being a fan is I can shout "Fire Therrien!" all I want from my cozy armchair, I have that right.

That has been my issue with anointing Therrien much credit. We clearly overachieved last season and when we woke up to reality, it wasn't just a crash but a complete and freefall, one Therrien had absolutely no answer to. We were not just bad, but utterly atrocious.

I found this far more indicative of his coaching than what preceded it.

My long standing theory regarding Therrien and Bergevin is both are set in their ways - an older perspective of standards and expectations for young men that would be better served in the 60s or even 80s. They refuse to accept the social evolution that young people have personality, nor is any disrespect intended as a result. Should this be the case - that it extents throughout management. We are unlikely to see Therrien fired any time soon.

Hard to believe we could see an encore of Patrick Roy.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

His overall play that is worse than it has been in years...doesn't play critical Defensive role or kill penalties or relied on to shut down opposition top forwards ES like he used to and did it well. All points to them trying to make him into a Mike Green type.

He is much better at offensive production but what does that have to do with the staff? Did they bestow increased shooting accuracy that he practiced in the offseason? Is making the decision to play Markov with him on the 1st PP unit some sort of feat? His even strength offensive production and positive influence was already top pairing quality in 11/12 and he did it playing top defensive roles unlike now.

I find PK has become increasingly concerned. He always appears worried about making the 'perfect' play or second guessing himself. This is especially apparent when the ever rare occurrence happens he has to play defense. PK completely neutered Crosby only a few seasons ago. There are no excuses worth mention to justify not using him in all situations. Instead, Therrien seems convinced PK cannot play defense and as you said, using him as though Mike Green.

It is simply baffling how poorly misused PK has been used.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What if there’s something else that needs to be addressed now before it’s too late with P.K. earning the kind of money that will make him the ultimate king. Basically, what if P.K. is putting himself ahead of the team…

Haven't seen any indication of this but let's say you're right.

Tough love approach might be a good one. But it's gone too far, esp when we don't play him late in playoff games. To me that's just a coach who can't properly evaluate talent. And it's a big problem from that perspective.

And secondly the lowball contract has no justification whatsoever.

No matter how you slice it we're making mistakes with him.

But it was a short season and the team clearly had a collapse in the last part of it... I wonder what it would have looked like in a full 82 games. And Subban had a great year... fully _despite_ more of this mishandling treatment in the early going. I can't help wondering how much greater Subban's season could have been.

Maybe. But the fact is we had a great year with what I thought was going to be a bad team. He deserves at least a little credit for this.

He seems like a pretty stubborn guy. I don't think you fix his viewpoint on Subban. And frankly, I don't want to give him any more time to do more damage. The more I see Subban "toned down", the more it hurts.

I can't disagree with this. My hope would be to talk with him and give it a shot. If it didn't work, replace him. But I think MB isn't going to get involved.

I don't honestly expect management would be that proactive, and I half believe they actually support Therrien's "plan" with Subban anyway. So I have no expectations. But the nice thing about being a fan is I can shout "Fire Therrien!" all I want from my cozy armchair, I have that right.

Yes you do.

 

[Habsterix*]

Funny that every time the team does well, it over-achieves and when it doesn't do so well, it's the coach's fault. We've been reading the same conspiracy theory for how many years now? Let's face it folks: coaching a hockey team is not a pure science as many intangible factors enter into play. The team is what the team is, period. That's why a coach who has won the Jack Adams can later be fired.

 

[BLONG7]

A coach should never throw a player under the bus, in the media...MT got fired in Pittsburgh shortly after crucifying his entire D corps...they later went on to win the Cup for Bylsma...

MT has some issues, and if he continues to throw players, let alone his best player under the bus, he will lose the room...

 

[Andy]

Funny that every time the team does well, it over-achieves and when it doesn't do so well, it's the coach's fault. We've been reading the same conspiracy theory for how many years now? Let's face it folks: coaching a hockey team is not a pure science as many intangible factors enter into play. The team is what the team is, period. That's why a coach who has won the Jack Adams can later be fired.

Except that the team fell off a cliff at the end of last season and are struggling to play .500 hockey this season without their goalkeepers standing on their heads. Even with Price and Budaj play amazingly, the habs are struggling to muster up convincing wins on a consistent basis.

On paper the team isn't bad, but there are execution issues and very awkward coaching decisions and player management decisions, ones that have been costly, especially these last three games.

And if coaching isn't to blame for the performance thus far, then management is as they did nothing to address real issues on the team. Briere was not a need and Murray while fills an element is another redundant piece by being yet another bottom pairing D-man who needs sheltering, we have enough of those. I'm not even going to mention Parros, that's how useless he is.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Funny that every time the team does well, it over-achieves and when it doesn't do so well, it's the coach's fault. We've been reading the same conspiracy theory for how many years now? Let's face it folks: coaching a hockey team is not a pure science as many intangible factors enter into play. The team is what the team is, period. That's why a coach who has won the Jack Adams can later be fired.

There are thresholds. For me personally, I think the issue of our coach preferring to use Diaz and Bouillon over Subban is really just such a fundamentally troubling one that it taints most anything else the coach does. Such a flawed viewpoint is just that significant an issue to me.

I don't think I automatically equate losing games to having trouble with the coach. Sometimes things go off the rails and there are plenty of good reasons for it.

 

[domdo345]

Lol at people blaming Therien on the overtime TOI for Subban. Didn't you guys realize we were pinned in our own end for the whole overtime? You think you can just yell at Bouillon and Diaz to come and next while they are chasing the puck in our zone?

Plus, have you guys ever managed a bench in your life? Therien isn't managing both the forwards and the D's. Its impossible when you are matching lines like they do in the NHL. Daigneault is the one calling the shots and Therien might just give him some directives during the game (like benching Murray). Please, get on a grip on how things work at least.

 

[Monctonscout]

Except that the team fell off a cliff at the end of last season and are struggling to play .500 hockey this season without their goalkeepers standing on their heads. Even with Price and Budaj play amazingly, the habs are struggling to muster up convincing wins on a consistent basis.

On paper the team isn't bad, but there are execution issues and very awkward coaching decisions and player management decisions, ones that have been costly, especially these last three games.

And if coaching isn't to blame for the performance thus far, then management is as they did nothing to address real issues on the team. Briere was not a need and Murray while fills an element is another redundant piece by being yet another bottom pairing D-man who needs sheltering, we have enough of those. I'm not even going to mention Parros, that's how useless he is.

The team didn't fall off a cliff last year. They just lost a pile of guys at the wrong time(playoffs) and faced a hot goalie. Emelin Price Prust Pacioretty Gionta White all missed time or were playing visibly hurt.

 

[TRG]

Lol at people blaming Therien on the overtime TOI for Subban. Didn't you guys realize we were pinned in our own end for the whole overtime? You think you can just yell at Bouillon and Diaz to come and next while they are chasing the puck in our zone?

Plus, have you guys ever managed a bench in your life? Therien isn't managing both the forwards and the D's. Its impossible when you are matching lines like they do in the NHL. Daigneault is the one calling the shots and Therien might just give him some directives during the game (like benching Murray). Please, get on a grip on how things work at least.

Not only that, I've noticed people complaining about the coach and line combinations when line changes weren't fully done

We're badly overreacting to everything. I mean, this team, full of injuries, has maintained an average quality of play, losing most of their games vs top tier teams. I mean, Therrien is far from perfect but can we just try to be a bit rational here? Good lord.