Blues Trade Proposals 2019-2020

[BlueMed]

D are harder to rank because there’s a lot more to their position than points. The Norris has become the trophy for whichever D scores the most points instead of the best overall D.

Burns gives up a lot defensively but he puts up a lot of points. That Karlsson contract is scary. He has a cap hit of 11.5 million for 8 more years. He’s the same age as Pietrangelo but comes with a lot of recent injuries. It’s just my opinion but I think Karlsson is going to decline fairly rapidly.

I think Pietrangelo and Parayko are close. Pietrangelo sees the game faster and I think is generally a smarter player. Parayko to me has a higher potential overall than Pietrangelo but he hasn’t reached it yet. He’s a better skater, has the harder shot, and is physically more imposing, but he’s not as mentally aggressive as he could be. Parayko was part of the D pair who went against the best forwards throughout the playoffs.

Burns is 34 and signed for 6 more years. Call me crazy, and I’m probably in the minority, but I’d rather have Parayko + Pietrangelo than Burns + Karlsson.


Parayko for Point probably isn’t crazy value wise in a vacuum but deals are never that easy. Marner is coming off 94 points while Point had 92. If I’m Point’s camp I’m asking for 10 million. The Blues simply can’t afford anything close to that on top of the fact they wouldn’t give up Schenn plus Parayko.

I do not think you are crazy for perfering Petro and Parayko over Burns and Karlsson. I would actually agree with that.

I think Petro is a better skater than Parayko in terms of technique, although Parayko is faster overall due to his stride length.

It's insane that people are so fixated on goals and assists. Tarasenko for instance is significantly better than Point despite not having the same point totals, and now Point is about to sign for close to 10M while Tarasenko is getting paid 7.5M. It's mind-blowing that so many GMs are falling for this stupidity, but at least Army isn't.

 

[LGB]

D are harder to rank because there’s a lot more to their position than points. The Norris has become the trophy for whichever D scores the most points instead of the best overall D.

Burns gives up a lot defensively but he puts up a lot of points. That Karlsson contract is scary. He has a cap hit of 11.5 million for 8 more years. He’s the same age as Pietrangelo but comes with a lot of recent injuries. It’s just my opinion but I think Karlsson is going to decline fairly rapidly.

I think Pietrangelo and Parayko are close. Pietrangelo sees the game faster and I think is generally a smarter player. Parayko to me has a higher potential overall than Pietrangelo but he hasn’t reached it yet. He’s a better skater, has the harder shot, and is physically more imposing, but he’s not as mentally aggressive as he could be. Parayko was part of the D pair who went against the best forwards throughout the playoffs.

Burns is 34 and signed for 6 more years. Call me crazy, and I’m probably in the minority, but I’d rather have Parayko + Pietrangelo than Burns + Karlsson.


Parayko for Point probably isn’t crazy value wise in a vacuum but deals are never that easy. Marner is coming off 94 points while Point had 92. If I’m Point’s camp I’m asking for 10 million. The Blues simply can’t afford anything close to that on top of the fact they wouldn’t give up Schenn plus Parayko.

Agree with a lot of what you said. My post was simply ranking them right now without consideration to age or contracts.

No, that's just a fact. This is what happens when you evaluate players purely based on points without any context because you're too fixated on the notion that the eye-test is too subjective but not consider that the reality and physics of the sport is far too complex to be simplified with your simple statistical models.

 

[BlueMed]

If we didn't have ROR, trading Parayko for Point would make sense, but we do have a 1C in ROR and a bunch of quality and depth behind him with Schenn, Bozak, Thomas, Sundqvist.

Point isn't a 1C though. Putting up 90+ points does NOT make you a 1C. It's about the attributes and skills.

 

[BlueMed]

Agree with a lot of what you said. My post was simply ranking them right now without consideration to age or contracts.

You are just looking at the stat sheets without considering context referring to that player's linemates, powerplay time, team success, injuries, coaching style, etc. Those are all variables that contribute towards a specific players points that are not accounted for in the simple "Goals+Assists=Points model" for evaluating a player. Point maybe in the top 20 points but isn't close to being a top 20 player whatsoever. And I am not saying stats are meaningless. They just have to be interpreted within the big picture.

 

[simon IC]

I can't believe we are back to discussing Parayko for a forward. We just won a cup, relying heavily on our defense, and relying heavily on a commitment to team defense from the forwards. And some people still want moar freakin' offense.

 

[LGB]

You are just looking at the stat sheets without considering context referring to that player's linemates, powerplay time, team success, injuries, coaching style, etc. Those are all variables that contribute towards a specific players points that are not accounted for in the simple "Goals+Assists=Points model" for evaluating a player. Point maybe in the top 20 points but isn't close to being a top 20 player whatsoever. And I am not saying stats are meaningless. They just have to be interpreted within the big picture.

Are you even reading my posts?

Anyway if you want to evaluate players by your eye test that's fine, but I will continue to evaluate players based on data (mainly xG for and against and shooting impacts even though for some reason you seem to think I evaluate based purely on points which is obviously not true looking at the way I ranked the defenseman earlier).

 

[BlueMed]

Are you even reading my posts?

Anyway if you want to evaluate players by your eye test that's fine, but I will continue to evaluate players based on data (mainly xG for and against and shooting impacts even though for some reason you seem to think I evaluate based purely on points which is obviously not true looking at the way I ranked the defenseman earlier).

I did see that you posted that on the mainboards, but currently, the eye-test with an objective attitude is the best form of evaluating players compared to even the best statistical models, which tell a very different story.

Classic example would be pre-KHL Sobotka.

 

[izzy]

have you seriously just said brayden point isnt a #1c??

oh jeeeeeez

 

[DoubleK81]

Point isn't worth 10+m/per, nor is he worth giving up Schenn+Kyrou, or Parayko in any deal. Some may be enamored with his production from last season, but take into account that he played 3/4 of the year with Kucherov, and he shot 50% over his previous shooting % last year, on a team that is all about offense. He doesn't fit into the Blues system in any way, shape, or form. At 14.75 S%, and away from Kucherov ( who is better than VT), he puts up Schenn #'s, at a higher cap hit and losing additional personnel that makes up any gap between Schenn and Point.

 

[BlueMed]

have you seriously just said brayden point isnt a #1c??

oh jeeeeeez

What do you define as a 1C and why does Point meet your definition of a 1C?

 

[BlueDream]

What do you define as a 1C and why does Point meet your definition of a 1C?

I mean, it’s pretty absurd to call a guy that’s well over PPG a 2nd liner.

 

[MissouriMook]

Point isn't a 1C though. Putting up 90+ points does NOT make you a 1C. It's about the attributes and skills.

Can you be more specific? Because both the eye test and the numbers back that up as far as I'm concerned.

Sure his 21% shooting percentage is unsustainable, but even at his average of over 14% the two prior years he would have had 30. Looking at his SOG vs. his SAT last season versus the prior two suggests that he was picking his spots more carefully and that it wasn't just luck but a combination of luck and a better shooting approach that elevated his shooting percentage last year.

As far as your previous statements, implying that others are making him better and not the other way around, consider this. Here are the xGF% figures from last season using all situations for his Top 5 (by total TOI) forward teammates.

Kucherov - 62.13 with Point, and 57.19 without
T Johnson - 57.56 with, 48.58 without
Gourde - 59.39 with, 49.11 without
Stamkos - 75.56 with, 50.47 without
Palat - 73.99 with, 51.98 without

You would expect a team as strong as TB to have a high xGF% in all situations for most players, but everyone he plays with is clearly better with him than without him. To me, that is the very definition of driving play.

 

[simon IC]

Point is an excellent hockey player. He can carry a line, and he isn't even too bad defensively. He would undoubtedly make the Blues better. I am just saying not at the expense of Parayko. It also looks like he is looking for Marner/Nylander/Matthews money, which not only can we not afford, I don't think he is worth it. (I don't think the Leaf players are worth it, either, but that is another discussion).

 

[MissouriMook]

Point is an excellent hockey player. He can carry a line, and he isn't even too bad defensively. He would undoubtedly make the Blues better. I am just saying not at the expense of Parayko. It also looks like he is looking for Marner/Nylander/Matthews money, which not only can we not afford, I don't think he is worth it. (I don't think the Leaf players are worth it, either, but that is another discussion).

I certainly wouldn't give up Parayko without consideration to filling the hole he leaves on D, which is why any Point-for-Parayko swap (for me) would have to have Cernak coming back the other way.

And don't sleep on Point's defense. He finished 8th and 9th the Selke voting the last two seasons as a 2nd and 3rd year player. Offense plays too big a role in that voting, but so does experience so he definitely earned the consideration he got.

As far as the AAV he's looking for, welcome to the new NHL. As frustrating as it is, $9M-$11M per year is pretty much the standard now for exceptional young talent, especially if you're locking them up for a long time. And Point is exceptional - he would instantly be the best player on the team, and that's not a dig at ROR, Tarasenko or Petro.

 

[izzy]

What do you define as a 1C and why does Point meet your definition of a 1C?

i dont think im the one who needs to explain my stance here

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I certainly wouldn't give up Parayko without consideration to filling the hole he leaves on D, which is why any Point-for-Parayko swap (for me) would have to have Cernak coming back the other way.

And don't sleep on Point's defense. He finished 8th and 9th the Selke voting the last two seasons as a 2nd and 3rd year player. Offense plays too big a role in that voting, but so does experience so he definitely earned the consideration he got.

As far as the AAV he's looking for, welcome to the new NHL. As frustrating as it is, $9M-$11M per year is pretty much the standard now for exceptional young talent, especially if you're locking them up for a long time. And Point is exceptional - he would instantly be the best player on the team, and that's not a dig at ROR, Tarasenko or Petro.

I don’t agree that Point would be the best player on the Blues.

 

[simon IC]

I certainly wouldn't give up Parayko without consideration to filling the hole he leaves on D, which is why any Point-for-Parayko swap (for me) would have to have Cernak coming back the other way.

And don't sleep on Point's defense. He finished 8th and 9th the Selke voting the last two seasons as a 2nd and 3rd year player. Offense plays too big a role in that voting, but so does experience so he definitely earned the consideration he got.

As far as the AAV he's looking for, welcome to the new NHL. As frustrating as it is, $9M-$11M per year is pretty much the standard now for exceptional young talent, especially if you're locking them up for a long time. And Point is exceptional - he would instantly be the best player on the team, and that's not a dig at ROR, Tarasenko or Petro.

I still wouldn't make that deal, even with Cernak coming back. Cernak is a good player, but he is hardly a replacement for Parayko. That deal boosts our offence, but seriously downgrades our defense. I guess this is where I have to agree to disagree with some posters here. Given the choice of improving our offense, (even with an exceptional talent like Point), or keeping our stellar 1-2 punch on RD, I would choose the latter. I still think defense wins championships.

 

[DoubleK81]

he would instantly be the best player on the team, and that's not a dig at ROR, Tarasenko or Petro.

No, he wouldn't be.

 

[izzy]

I certainly wouldn't give up Parayko without consideration to filling the hole he leaves on D, which is why any Point-for-Parayko swap (for me) would have to have Cernak coming back the other way.

And don't sleep on Point's defense. He finished 8th and 9th the Selke voting the last two seasons as a 2nd and 3rd year player. Offense plays too big a role in that voting, but so does experience so he definitely earned the consideration he got.

As far as the AAV he's looking for, welcome to the new NHL. As frustrating as it is, $9M-$11M per year is pretty much the standard now for exceptional young talent, especially if you're locking them up for a long time. And Point is exceptional - he would instantly be the best player on the team, and that's not a dig at ROR, Tarasenko or Petro.

point isnt better than pietrangelo

 

[Novacain]

1. Any Point to Parayko trade would require the Blues to move more salary. We would also likely have to move at least Sunqvist in the trade to make the cap work. More realistically if we get a defenseman option back, it would have to be Perron or Schenn, though Schenn would probably require an add unless he comes pre-extended.

2. We don’t really need centers. We already have O’Reilly (who I take over Point without thinking hard), Schenn, Bozak, Thomas, Sunqvist, and Barbashev for C depth. For the first time in my memory we are just swimming in center depth. No reason to create a sizable hole on the back end to try to fix a non problem.

3. Like, did anyone who is pushing this WATCH the playoffs last year? Parayko was getting Conn Smythe votes, and probably deserved a better shake from them then he got. He was an elite shut down defender all playoffs, and probably our best player game in and game out most of the way. Why in gods name are we trying to trade a proven playoff time difference maker when we have nothing even resembling a good fit to replace him?

 

[Frenzy31]

1. Any Point to Parayko trade would require the Blues to move more salary. We would also likely have to move at least Sunqvist in the trade to make the cap work. More realistically if we get a defenseman option back, it would have to be Perron or Schenn, though Schenn would probably require an add unless he comes pre-extended.

2. We don’t really need centers. We already have O’Reilly (who I take over Point without thinking hard), Schenn, Bozak, Thomas, Sunqvist, and Barbashev for C depth. For the first time in my memory we are just swimming in center depth. No reason to create a sizable hole on the back end to try to fix a non problem.

3. Like, did anyone who is pushing this WATCH the playoffs last year? Parayko was getting Conn Smythe votes, and probably deserved a better shake from them then he got. He was an elite shut down defender all playoffs, and probably our best player game in and game out most of the way. Why in gods name are we trying to trade a proven playoff time difference maker when we have nothing even resembling a good fit to replace him?

Grass is always greener????

I agree no need to add another center. Point is great, but too add him it makes us a much worse team. No thanks.

 

[Novacain]

Grass is always greener????

I agree no need to add another center. Point is great, but too add him it makes us a much worse team. No thanks.

Grass doesn’t get any greener then Stanley Green.

 

[BlueDream]

I like Point a lot but I wouldn't move Parayko for him either. Our offense was good enough to win the Cup, and Thomas should only get better.

Plus, Bouw-Parayko was instrumental in our run. It's important to have both Petro and Parayko, we have a #1 defenseman out there 80% of the time.

 

[Stealth JD]

Expansion draft really puts a damper on the Blues ability to upgrade the roster. With so much depth in the system, the Blues could easily trade 2 of Fabbri/Sanford/Kostin/Kyrou/Blais/Barbashev/Sundqvist (plus futures) for an impact player...but if you're just going to lose the guy to Seattle, that's a very high price to pay to try to defend your title. Trading youth for futures seems counter-intuitive since you'd be hoping the futures became as good as the young, inexpensive talent that you've got now...but storing NHL-talent in the AHL, unable to cash those pieces in towards a long-term asset for the club is an unfortunate position in which to be.

 

[DatDude44]

I don’t see a need to trade for anything other than an impact Left handed Defenceman that’s an obvious upgrade on eddy/bouw/Gunnar..... otherwise I don’t see why we’d look to add much of anything else, especially with how much high quality depth on dirt cheap contracts we have, in the cap era, it’s rare to have this type of mix of high quality fwds and extremely deep depth options.... other than moving Allen and steen idk why we’d want to give up young cheap talent for highly paid fwd talent when we’re not in a position of needing it....