GDT: Blues @ Ducks| Giving up and scoring lots of goals| NBCSN, 8:30pm

[kimzey59]

Whether you consider it or not, Reaves was and still kind of is an enforcer. He's much more than just a fighter, but to argue he wasn't an enforcer is ignoring the game from 10 years ago. When I say "old" NHL, I mean that it was more bruising and much more checking. Now, the game has shifted greatly to more speed, more skill, and more rush chances. I'd argue many of the enforcers that played before 2005 have either retired or have changed their game.

Chiming in here;
I agree that Reaves is the last "true" enforcer in the game(maybe Clifford but he's not dropping the gloves nearly as much as he used to). He's willing to throw down with anybody at any time, he just has a severe lack of willing opponents.

However, you will have a very hard time convincing me that Reaves can fight on the same level as guys like Probert, Williams, Domi, Twist and McSorley. In the "old NHL" he would have been considered a Berube type. Always willing to scrap, but lacking the real "fear factor" that those psycho's brought to the rink and doubtful to "win the fight" when going up against the big dogs. Far more useful in other area's of the game given that most of those "old school" enforcers didn't even realize that there was a puck involved; but they were a different breed. They were constantly dealing with brain damage and just kept going out there trying to hurt somebody. Most of the old school enforcers would be banned from the sport given today's rules.

 

[ezcreepin]

Chiming in here;
I agree that Reaves is the last "true" enforcer in the game(maybe Clifford but he's not dropping the gloves nearly as much as he used to). He's willing to throw down with anybody at any time, he just has a severe lack of willing opponents.

However, you will have a very hard time convincing me that Reaves can fight on the same level as guys like Probert, Williams, Domi, Twist and McSorley. In the "old NHL" he would have been considered a Berube type. Always willing to scrap, but lacking the real "fear factor" that those psycho's brought to the rink and doubtful to "win the fight" when going up against the big dogs. Far more useful in other area's of the game given that most of those "old school" enforcers didn't even realize that there was a puck involved; but they were a different breed. They were constantly dealing with brain damage and just kept going out there trying to hurt somebody. Most of the old school enforcers would be banned from the sport given today's rules.

I mean Reaves may not have fear factor that those guys had and he may not be nearly has beefy, but he is 10x the fighter they were. Or maybe I'm misremembering, but those guys didn't necessarily train to fight, they trained to be huge so they could get that knockout. Reaves is a trained boxer and by all accounts would beat probably everyone in the league in a fight. Having said that, I'm sure guys like Twist, Probert, etc wouldn't care about getting punched so there's that... But really though, I don't believe we actually talk about enforcers like we used to. Sure there were guys in the early 2000's and late 2000's that we talk about, but no one was or is going to be like those guys ever again. It's kinda like talking about players from the 40's and 50's, ie Richard, and how good he was at scoring. Yea sure, but we also have to realize that even if their equipment sucked, it was a much different time and by all accounts much easier to score. There's no sense in really comparing a guy like Ovechkin to Richard because the style and play of hockey is just different. Same goes for true enforcers and guys like Janssen and Reaves.

 

[joe galiba]

Tiger Williams had 10 season out of 14 with 15 or more goals, with a high of 30
Probert was a 15 to 20 goal a season guy until he was 30
Willi Plett, Terry O'Reilly, Al Secord, Clark Gillies and others were very good hockey players along with the fighting
up until the mid to late 80's almost everyone fought at least a couple of times a year, so most of the top fighters could play hockey too
it was just that late 80's through early 2000's that there was a lot of guys who could only fight

 

[BlueDream]

I mean Reaves may not have fear factor that those guys had and he may not be nearly has beefy, but he is 10x the fighter they were. Or maybe I'm misremembering, but those guys didn't necessarily train to fight, they trained to be huge so they could get that knockout. Reaves is a trained boxer and by all accounts would beat probably everyone in the league in a fight. Having said that, I'm sure guys like Twist, Probert, etc wouldn't care about getting punched so there's that... But really though, I don't believe we actually talk about enforcers like we used to. Sure there were guys in the early 2000's and late 2000's that we talk about, but no one was or is going to be like those guys ever again. It's kinda like talking about players from the 40's and 50's, ie Richard, and how good he was at scoring. Yea sure, but we also have to realize that even if their equipment sucked, it was a much different time and by all accounts much easier to score. There's no sense in really comparing a guy like Ovechkin to Richard because the style and play of hockey is just different. Same goes for true enforcers and guys like Janssen and Reaves.

You’re definitely misremembering.

Ryan Reaves would get absolutely clocked by guys like Probert, Twist, etc in their primes.

Reaves isn’t even that great of a fighter - he just looks great because he has very little competition. But go watch his fight against the toughest guy he’s ever fought - Brian McGrattan. Reaves lost by quite a bit. McGrattan was one of the last true enforcers as well.

If Reaves played in the early 2000s, nobody would even know who he is.

 

[Brian39]

Really enjoying the enforcers conversation, but I don't have anything to add to it.

As for our current bottom 6, I have really liked Clifford-Joshua-Mac together. I think they have been our best forechecking line over the last couple games and they have cycled as good as any 4th line group that we have sent out this year. I don't think Joshua or Mac belong anywhere near our 12 man group when we are fully healthy, but I feel comfortable plugging both in during a pinch. Joshua especially is proving to be a pretty damn good 7th center on the depth chart.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Joshua has been a nice little surprise in his 2 games, plays a smart game and has made a few good plays. Looks more useful than MacEachern already although that's not really saying much.

Krug has been losing favor with me, he's making far too many poor decisions with the puck which lead to the opposing team coming back the other way. Lots of passes off the mark which startle me since that should be one of his greatest assets. His lack of foot speed and size has been evident at times when he's trying to shake off forecheckers but they're able to knock the puck off his stick. I like his aggressiveness in the offensive zone but he really needs to clean up his play in other two zones.

I think this is just what happens to new acquisitions on the Blues; they all take a while to not suck or be completely invisible. Even O’Reilly had a bit of an adjustment period — as did Bozak, Maroon, etc. anyone tasked with a larger role on this team seems to be a little overwhelmed whereas we’re really good at adding effective depth on the fly. Not exactly sure why, but that has been the trend for a long time. It’s even true when players leave.

 

[Reality Czech]

Chiming in here;
I agree that Reaves is the last "true" enforcer in the game(maybe Clifford but he's not dropping the gloves nearly as much as he used to). He's willing to throw down with anybody at any time, he just has a severe lack of willing opponents.

However, you will have a very hard time convincing me that Reaves can fight on the same level as guys like Probert, Williams, Domi, Twist and McSorley. In the "old NHL" he would have been considered a Berube type. Always willing to scrap, but lacking the real "fear factor" that those psycho's brought to the rink and doubtful to "win the fight" when going up against the big dogs. Far more useful in other area's of the game given that most of those "old school" enforcers didn't even realize that there was a puck involved; but they were a different breed. They were constantly dealing with brain damage and just kept going out there trying to hurt somebody. Most of the old school enforcers would be banned from the sport given today's rules.

This guy didn't have the fear factor? He looks like he could kill a man with his stare.

It's not really fair to compare the new school to the old in terms of enforcers, but it's safe to say Reavo is the closest we have to a real enforcer. As much as I despise the Knights, I will always be a Reaves fan. He's one of the more entertaining guys in the league on and off the ice.

 

[scottyajak]

This guy didn't have the fear factor? He looks like he could kill a man with his stare.

It's not really fair to compare the new school to the old in terms of enforcers, but it's safe to say Reavo is the closest we have to a real enforcer. As much as I despise the Knights, I will always be a Reaves fan. He's one of the more entertaining guys in the league on and off the ice.

When you don't even bother to get your nose fixed anymore

 

[kimzey59]

This guy didn't have the fear factor? He looks like he could kill a man with his stare.

It's not really fair to compare the new school to the old in terms of enforcers, but it's safe to say Reavo is the closest we have to a real enforcer. As much as I despise the Knights, I will always be a Reaves fan. He's one of the more entertaining guys in the league on and off the ice.

Berube's playing size was 6'1" 205-210 lbs.
He gave up about 15-30lbs to the true heavyweight's of his time(Tie Domi was considered "small" and he was running at 5'8" 210-220).

He'd be a beast in today's game(provided he improved his skating to today's standard's); but in his time he was a "B list" tough guy. In fact, most of the "B List" guys of yesteryear would be at the top of the heap in today's game(Kelly Chase would be the most feared man in the NHL in today's game, and he was easily the 2nd fiddle to Twist in his day). That's as much a statement regarding how far the standards for tough guys has fallen as it is a compliment to the "B list" guys. Hockey Fighting was a legitimate art form at one point. That isn't the case any longer.

But the "A list" tough guys; they weren't just psycho's, they were HUGE and psychotic. They were the guys you "didn't want to meet in some back alley". Probert ran at 6'3" 225. Twist was 6'2" 230. McSorley was 6'1" 235. These cat's were big, had the experience to be masters of their art and had the psychotic edge that comes with a few missing brain cells. Reaves has the size, but he just doesn't have the psychotic edge to be in that class and he hasn't had the opponents to really master the art. He's easily 10 times the player that any of them were(heck, he'd probably be a top 2 line forward if he was placed back in that era), but as a fighter he's just not on their level.

 

[BlueDream]

I think this is just what happens to new acquisitions on the Blues; they all take a while to not suck or be completely invisible. Even O’Reilly had a bit of an adjustment period — as did Bozak, Maroon, etc. anyone tasked with a larger role on this team seems to be a little overwhelmed whereas we’re really good at adding effective depth on the fly. Not exactly sure why, but that has been the trend for a long time. It’s even true when players leave.

Nah O’Reilly really didn’t. He was good from Day 1. The rest of the team wasn’t playing anywhere near his level though which is why we sucked.

Berube's playing size was 6'1" 205-210 lbs.
He gave up about 15-30lbs to the true heavyweight's of his time(Tie Domi was considered "small" and he was running at 5'8" 210-220).

He'd be a beast in today's game(provided he improved his skating to today's standard's); but in his time he was a "B list" tough guy. In fact, most of the "B List" guys of yesteryear would be at the top of the heap in today's game(Kelly Chase would be the most feared man in the NHL in today's game, and he was easily the 2nd fiddle to Twist in his day). That's as much a statement regarding how far the standards for tough guys has fallen as it is a compliment to the "B list" guys. Hockey Fighting was a legitimate art form at one point. That isn't the case any longer.

But the "A list" tough guys; they weren't just psycho's, they were HUGE and psychotic. They were the guys you "didn't want to meet in some back alley". Probert ran at 6'3" 225. Twist was 6'2" 230. McSorley was 6'1" 235. These cat's were big, had the experience to be masters of their art and had the psychotic edge that comes with a few missing brain cells. Reaves has the size, but he just doesn't have the psychotic edge to be in that class and he hasn't had the opponents to really master the art. He's easily 10 times the player that any of them were(heck, he'd probably be a top 2 line forward if he was placed back in that era), but as a fighter he's just not on their level.

Berube definitely wasn’t “B list”. He’s among the top 20 fighters to ever play the game. He fought guys like Probert regularly and walked away with some wins. There’s very few guys in the history of the league that could handle him.

He also told a story of when he was 16 he actually won a fighting competition against grown men in his hometown. Berube was a maniac and he knew how to fight.

 

[Reality Czech]

Nah O’Reilly really didn’t. He was good from Day 1. The rest of the team wasn’t playing anywhere near his level though which is why we sucked.


Berube definitely wasn’t “B list”. He’s among the top 20 fighters to ever play the game. He fought guys like Probert regularly and walked away with some wins. There’s very few guys in the history of the league that could handle him.

He also told a story of when he was 16 he actually won a fighting competition against grown men in his hometown. Berube was a maniac and he knew how to fight.

Exactly. I get what Kimzey meant about size but not all top fighters were the biggest guys. Domi is near the top of most lists of the top fighters of his era despite being undersized. Joe Kocur was "only" 6' tall but he's right up there as well. I just read Probert's autobiography and it has a list of his career fights. He fought Berube 6 times over his career, including 3 times in back-to-back games in 1987.

 

[joe galiba]

Bob Gassoff was as feared a fighter as there was in his short career and he was only 5'10 190lbs, he was just completely nuts when he fought, he simply wouldn't stop punching
Twist was one of the top couple of fighters ever, but he wasn't intimidating as he only ever fought, or even went after, other fighters - as opposed to a guy like Probert who would try and kill whoever was across from him on the ice and was a good enough hockey player to be on the ice for a regular shift
skater, goalie, big, small, fighter, pacifist, it didn't matter to Probert

 

[Xerloris]

Bob Gassoff was as feared a fighter as there was in his short career and he was only 5'10 190lbs, he was just completely nuts when he fought, he simply wouldn't stop punching
Twist was one of the top couple of fighters ever, but he wasn't intimidating as he only ever fought, or even went after, other fighters - as opposed to a guy like Probert who would try and kill whoever was across from him on the ice and was a good enough hockey player to be on the ice for a regular shift
skater, goalie, big, small, fighter, pacifist, it didn't matter to Probert

Tie Domi was 5'8 and one of the toughest f***ers you could find. Seriously how tough do you have to be to be that size and still be an enforcer?

 

[Blueston]

Blues called up Gillies to practice squad. He is quarantining now. They are saying that they want Hofer to get playing time in Utica rather than sitting here all season. I suppose that is true so far as it goes, but it also gives us more viable alternative to Husso if he doesn't elevate his game. Husso starts tonight and I think is on a bit of a hot seat.

I should add that with taxi squad and IR, we could carry 3 goalies in short term if worried about losing Husso to waivers.

 

[Brian39]

Blues called up Gillies to practice squad. He is quarantining now. They are saying that they want Hofer to get playing time in Utica rather than sitting here all season. I suppose that is true so far as it goes, but it also gives us more viable alternative to Husso if he doesn't elevate his game. Husso starts tonight and I think is on a bit of a hot seat.

I should add that with taxi squad and IR, we could carry 3 goalies in short term if worried about losing Husso to waivers.

With the number of goalie injuries combined with the delay in getting goalies from AHL to NHL, I think most goalies put on waivers will get scooped up. Tons of teams are looking for warm bodies that could theoretically play a game n the NHL. I'd expect Husso to get claimed and you are 100% correct that the taxi squad makes it easy to carry 3 goalies. Since you have to have a 3rd goalie with the NHL team, the usual concerns about a 3rd goalie stealing reps don't exists this year.