Blues Discussion Thread 2018-2019 - Part II

[KirkOut]

Ekholm
Josi
Ellis
Subban

Vs

Petro
Parayko
Dunn
Edmundson

Who’s better and by how much?

Nashville by a large enough margin to make the distinction.

I'd rank Petro a little bit higher than Josi or Subban, but then the other of those two is certainly a decent margin better than Parayko. Right now I'd take either of Ekholm and Ellis over Dunn/Ed. Maybe 3 or 4 years down the road that changes. But right now it's Nashville. I'd take our forward group over theirs every day of the week though.

 

[Shwabeal]

Ekholm
Josi
Ellis
Subban

Vs

Petro
Parayko
Dunn
Edmundson

Who’s better and by how much?

Pietro > Josi
Subban >> Parayko
Ekholm > Edmundson
Ellis >>> Dunn

The Blues have a great defense and there is a pretty sizable difference in their top 4 and Nashville's. It just shows how ridiculous their top 4 is. Let's hope the salary cap forces them to lose one of Josi/Subban/Ekholm over the next two years.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

Ekholm
Josi
Ellis
Subban

Vs

Petro
Parayko
Dunn
Edmundson

Who’s better and by how much?

It's Nashville, and I didn't even have to think twice about it.

The Blues are deep on defense, but that doesn't mean they can dethrone the best defensive corp. I mean, Washington has one of the best 1-2 center punches in Backstrom and Kuznetsov, but I don't think you'd find many saying they're better than Pittsburgh. The Blues are in a similar spot with Nashville here.

 

[Spektre]

Shouldn’t Nashville’s top 4 put at least a small dent in the whole “defense wins championships “?? I haven’t tried any research but I can’t think of any team in the last 20 years (or at least since the salary cap has been instituted) that had a top 4 D close to Nashville’s.

A great D doesn’t hurt Cup aspirations but I think an adequate D can be enough.

 

[Ranksu]

Pietro > Josi
Subban >> Parayko
Ekholm > Edmundson
Ellis >>> Dunn

The Blues have a great defense and there is a pretty sizable difference in their top 4 and Nashville's. It just shows how ridiculous their top 4 is. Let's hope the salary cap forces them to lose one of Josi/Subban/Ekholm over the next two years.

Pietro = Josi
Subban >>> Parayko
Ekholm >> Edmundson
Ellis >>>> Dunn

ROR > Johansen
Schenn >> Turris
Bozak >> Bonino
Thomas <<<< Järnkrok

Tarasenko = Forsberg
Schwartz = Arvidsson
Fabbri < Fiala | questionmark? If Fabbri isn't what he was 2-years back this goes <<< to Fiala
Steen < Smith
Maroon = Hartman
Perron >> Tolvanen
Barbashev < Sissons
Jaskin < Watson

Allen <<<< Rinne
Johnson <<< Saros

Husso = Saros

 

[simon IC]

I guess I am in the minority here. I think PK Subban is the most overrated defenseman in NHL history, particularly on HF. I would take Parayko over Subban any day and every day!

 

[Chief Steele]

I guess I am in the minority here. I think PK Subban is the most overrated defenseman in NHL history, particularly on HF. I would take Parayko over Subban any day and every day!

I can agree with that.. but I have never really like Subban always thought he was a whiner even with Montreal. Now that he is with Nashville its only worse. Is he good yes is he better than Colt... my gut tells me its almost equal they both do somethings better than the other.. In the end IMO Colt has a higher upside, if he can find just a small mean streak then he will become a truly elite and I don't mean a has to fight type mean just a clear traffic mean.. or land a huge hit mean... Kind of like DB used to do.. if the team needed a fire lit DB would look to lay a huge hit on someone.. When and if Colt starts to do that he will have a easier time clearing out the front as no one will want to go there knowing he may smash them.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I guess I am in the minority here. I think PK Subban is the most overrated defenseman in NHL history, particularly on HF. I would take Parayko over Subban any day and every day!

I truly think if Subban started out in Nashville and not Montreal, the hype isn't there as much as it is right now.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

Pietro = Josi
Subban >>> Parayko
Ekholm >> Edmundson
Ellis >>>> Dunn

ROR > Johansen
Schenn >> Turris
Bozak >> Bonino
Thomas <<<< Järnkrok

Tarasenko = Forsberg
Schwartz = Arvidsson
Fabbri < Fiala | questionmark? If Fabbri isn't what he was 2-years back this goes <<< to Fiala
Steen < Smith
Maroon = Hartman
Perron >> Tolvanen
Barbashev < Sissons
Jaskin < Watson

Allen <<<< Rinne
Johnson <<< Saros

Husso = Saros

Forsberg isn't better than Tarasenko. He's close, but he's not better. Tarasenko's point shares per game is better. His even strength scoring much better, his discipline is clearly better as Forsberg has 2-3 times more penalty minutes. Tarasenko and Forsberg had very similar seasons last year, but that's as close as Forsberg has come. He is 3 years younger though so I could see Forsberg passing Tarasenko down the road. Also, Schwartz and Arvidsson aren't really comparable players. Schwartz is MUCH better defensively then Arvidsson. Scoring wise, they are close but Schwartz is still a much better all around player then Arvidsson. I think you're giving a little too much credit to Forsberg and Arvidsson. While being very good players, it would go Tarasenko > Forsberg > Schwartz > Arvidsson. I would also be willing to bet Thomas surpasses your dismal expectations of him. To say he won't be better then a 4th line center is selling the kid massively short without seeing him play.

 

[Majorityof1]

Forsberg isn't better than Tarasenko. He's close, but he's not better. Tarasenko's point shares per game is better. His even strength scoring much better, his discipline is clearly better as Forsberg has 2-3 times more penalty minutes. Tarasenko and Forsberg had very similar seasons last year, but that's as close as Forsberg has come. He is 3 years younger though so I could see Forsberg passing Tarasenko down the road. Also, Schwartz and Arvidsson aren't really comparable players. Schwartz is MUCH better defensively then Arvidsson. Scoring wise, they are close but Schwartz is still a much better all around player then Arvidsson. I think you're giving a little too much credit to Forsberg and Arvidsson. While being very good players, it would go Tarasenko > Forsberg > Schwartz > Arvidsson. I would also be willing to bet Thomas surpasses your dismal expectations of him. To say he won't be better then a 4th line center is selling the kid massively short without seeing him play.

What!?!?! What!?!?!? @Ranksu gave too much credit to Sweedes? Was he telling the truth when he said he isn't biased? Did he really just hate Berglund and only Berglund? My whole HF Blues world-view is askew now.

....Holy <bleep>, he also says Perron is >> better than Finnish prospect, Tolvanen. Someone had to have hacked his account. Robb, quick, run to Finland to check if Ranksu's ok.

 

[Majorityof1]

I guess I am in the minority here. I think PK Subban is the most overrated defenseman in NHL history, particularly on HF. I would take Parayko over Subban any day and every day!

Parayko is fairly over-rated himself and might be my choice for most over-rated d-man. Both are big men who can skate and have booming shots. Subban, however, actually makes use of his size and shot. Whether Subban is over-rated or not depends 100% on who you talk to. (same with Parayko who gets criminally under-rated by some and over-rated by others). Offensive defenseman in general are over-hyped. But the other side generally diminishes their defensive skills as backlash against the positive hype. You'd thnk guys like Karlsson and Subban didn't play any defense at all given how you hear some talk. Subban's defense isn't anywhere near as bad as his detractors say. He effects what other teams are doing in both zones far more than Parayko. In a cap world, banking on his upside, a credible argument can be made to prefer Parayko on your team. But if I am team Canada with the gold-medal game on the line, I still put Subban out there 10/10.

I truly think if Subban started out in Nashville and not Montreal, the hype isn't there as much as it is right now.

I don't know about that. There is almost as much backlash against Montreal as fandom. Montreal fans are rabid, and as such, the rest of the hockey world is far less so. I think the hype comes from the Norris at 23 as much as from being in Montreal. The question becomes would he have won the Norris without the exposure of playing in such a big hockey market. The vote was somewhat close. However, he had the stats to back it up. 1st in D among point-shares, tied for first in points, 2nd in goals (more than any Norris contender), 2nd in pts/gm, strong +/- relative to his team. Its a strong Norris resume regardless of where he is from. So its iffy that whether he wins the Norris in Nashville (all else equal). Its also questionable whether he is as hyped with a 2nd or 3rd place Norris finish. I think you can make a credible argument; however, he earned being in the Norris conversation, and hence he earned the hype to some extent.

 

[Dbrownss]

Subban>>Parayko. Yes Subban can be a clown, but he is a Phenomenal hockey player. Parayko is soon to be out of the "banking on potential" part of his career. If he doesn't take a massive step this year, he is what he is.

 

[Brian39]

Subban might be overrated, but he is without a doubt a better D man than Parayko.

Since the most recent lockout, Subban is 3rd among all NHL D men in points, 9th in goals, 8th in TOI/GP, 13th in shots, 8th in even strength points and 2nd in PP points. He is one of the best D men at driving offense and transition in the NHL. His zone starts were about 50/50 in Montreal, but have pretty much mirrored Petro's during his 2 years in Nashville. I think Parayko is better defensively, but not be nearly the same margin that exists between the two offensively. Parayko is not elite at any one thing. He is an excellent skater, but his overal defense is not top 10 in the NHL. Subban has an elite shot as well as elite vision in the offensive zone. In the light most favorable to Parayko, their transition game is a wash.

I don't like Subban's diving and dirty play, but he is an excellent defender. He is absolutely a better overall player than Parayko.

 

[Evocable Manager]

I don't think there's much of a debate between the overall teams when comparing the Blues and Preds.

Preds have the much better defense and stable goaltending. The offensive lines are comparable but the sheer amount of depth and with Tarasenko being the X-factor leans me towards saying the Blues have the upper hand up front (Forsberg being higher than Tarasenko on that NHL network list is pure stupidity but there's also another 5 guys ahead of Tarasenko who shouldn't be so whatever).

But I wouldn't say Nashville is substantially better than St. Louis. So long as the goaltending in St. Louis holds up, they can take down anyone in a playoff series. It's a matter of luck and execution.

Okay so can it be October already?

 

[ezcreepin]

Shouldn’t Nashville’s top 4 put at least a small dent in the whole “defense wins championships “?? I haven’t tried any research but I can’t think of any team in the last 20 years (or at least since the salary cap has been instituted) that had a top 4 D close to Nashville’s.

A great D doesn’t hurt Cup aspirations but I think an adequate D can be enough.

The greatest team ever probably wouldn't win the cup 9 times out of 10 because there's so many factors that go into it. Calgary should've won with Iginla, Sharks should've won with Thornton, Blues should've won with Mac, Pronger, and Hull, etc. It's just damn hard to win.

 

[Brockon]

Ekholm
Josi
Ellis
Subban

Vs

Petro
Parayko
Dunn
Edmundson

Who’s better and by how much?

Nashville's Dcore is better by a fair margin. Offensively the listed top 4 in 2017-18 Nashville produced 178 pts in 282 games to our 130 pts in 304 games.

Nashville transitions the puck slightly better and held a much better goal differential - though part of that blame falls on Allen, and reflects Nashville's lack of impact forwards as the defence gets more opportunities to hit the scoreboard without high end forwards racking up the points.

Defensively, I don't have the time to even consider what metrics to attempt to use for a decent comparison, let alone find them...

 

[Robb_K]

What!?!?! What!?!?!? @Ranksu gave too much credit to Sweedes? Was he telling the truth when he said he isn't biased? Did he really just hate Berglund and only Berglund? My whole HF Blues world-view is askew now.

....Holy <bleep>, he also says Perron is >> better than Finnish prospect, Tolvanen. Someone had to have hacked his account. Robb, quick, RUN to Finland to check if Ranksu's ok.

I'm too old to run all the way to Finland, even now with the bridge from Denmark to Sweden! My knees are shot! But, if the Global warming cuts off The Gulf Stream, and a new ice age hits Europe, maybe I could skate there. But, I doubt that you, Ranksu, and I would be around in 300 years. And, even if we were. we probably wouldn't remember that you asked this question!

 

[Reality Czech]

Shouldn’t Nashville’s top 4 put at least a small dent in the whole “defense wins championships “?? I haven’t tried any research but I can’t think of any team in the last 20 years (or at least since the salary cap has been instituted) that had a top 4 D close to Nashville’s.

A great D doesn’t hurt Cup aspirations but I think an adequate D can be enough.

Totally agree, that cliche does not currently apply. I'd say that offense wins championships. It doesn't have to be the best offense in the league but capable of putting up close to 3 goals per game in the playoffs, when goals are a lot harder to come by.

An effective offense plus competent D and goalie seems like a winning formula. And you need to get scoring from unexpected places in addition to top players.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Hockey has been one of the sports where it really does require a balance, football seems to be trendy that way as well. Most Cup winners have a legit #1 C, legit #1 D, and either a goalie that is top-tier or capable of having stretches of top-tier. If you have a really elite offense or defense/goalie combo, then you'll still be in good shape.

It's why I don't see a team like Nashville winning, or the Blues for that matter.

 

[Stealth JD]

Petro
Subban
Josi
Ellis
Parayko
Ekholm
Edmundson
Dunn

Nashville takes top-4 matchup, but Blues 5-6-7-8 is clearly better than Nashville’s, making the overall D a virtual toss-up. I think STL has overtaken NAS personally when you factor in forwards. Goalie will separate these two teams.

 

[DoubleK81]

Subban is a clown who relies on his personality to win over fans. I haven't watched a game that he's in where he doesn't look like a #3 d-man. I honestly don't get what people see in him to rate him any higher.

 

[ManyIdeas]

Subban is a clown who relies on his personality to win over fans. I haven't watched a game that he's in where he doesn't look like a #3 d-man. I honestly don't get what people see in him to rate him any higher.

He has an unparalleled ability to take players out of the play

Just because he's laying on them without drawing a penalty is not a negative, obviously

 

[BleedBlue14]

He has an unparalleled ability to take players out of the play

Just because he's laying on them without drawing a penalty is not a negative, obviously

I personally believe he’s just lazy defensively. If they aren’t going to call him for his antics he may as well keep doing them. Takes a lot less energy to lay on a guy as opposed to fighting for position with him. I’ve also watched him many times were he makes some very questionable reads defensively. Regardless, I can’t knock his offensive ability, but I certainly do not believe he is anything above average defensively. Personally believe he should be put in the Brent Burns category of great offensively. Pretty poor defensively

 

[Blueston]

JR reporting Brodeur leaving club. He speculates return to NJ. I wouldn't rule out Islanders either, given his closeness to Lou.

 

[Robb_K]

JR reporting Brodeur leaving club. He speculates return to NJ. I wouldn't rule out Islanders either, given his closeness to Lou.

Sorry to hear this. But, I guess with Doug doing very well recently, he sees no near future possibility for upward movement within The Blues' organisation. But, I think Marty needs a LOT more experience before he can take on a job as an NHL GM.