Blues #1 goaltender race Allen vs. Binnington vs. Husso?

[Foomp Dugan]

Hey guys Canucks fan here, can someone please explain to me why Allen is getting more and more starts.

To me Binnington has been absolutely fantastic and should be your clear number 1, he’s saved your season and been of the best goalies in the league since taking over. Because he lost a few games you guys are going back to your below .500, below league average goalie? To me that makes little sense.

I’m mad because I have Binnington in my fantasy league, but because of that I’ve been watching him play more and more and he has impressed me.

Mainly because this franchise has a miserable time evaluating goaltenders.

 

[Foomp Dugan]

It’s maddening to know that despite having incredible amounts of information at our fingertips people have become less thoughtful and intelligent. Somehow when people do see/seek information it is from unsubstantiated sources. Facebook has become a relied upon for information, in addition to other opinion laden “sources”. People believe these sources and it must have to do with an absence of critical thinking. I think a Renaissance man could walk into our society today and immediately ask what the hell happened to cause our deevolution?

The other thing that miffs me is the inability to reason with people anymore. If they lack critical thinking capabilities, then using logic is not going to convince them of anything. You have to be sensational and pander to their emotions.

I am not sure where this fits in, but how come it is so difficult for people to take responsibility for their wrongs? There seems to be no ownership of personal responsibility way too often. We are not talking about outliers here. I was just on a train today where a lady pushed her way to a seat unnecessarily and very rudely, then when people irritatedly pushed past here to exit, she was pissed at them. The hipocracy and lack of culpability is appalling at times.

Great post.

Do you realize how many people see some concocted Facebook meme and believe it as truth?? It’s insane how gullible people are these days.

It also amazes me how many people are scared to death to admit they could be wrong about something under an anonymous user name. Stubbornness knows no limits on the interwebs.

 

[Brian39]

I don't want to stray too far into political discourse here because this is a hockey forum. With that said, I'm a lawyer (and pretty much always knew I wanted to be one) because I value logic, reason and critical thinking.

Voting matters. If you value critical thinking and logical reasoning, vote for the candidates/party who aren't trying to systematically destroy public education and deny science. I believe it is obvious who I'm referring to, but don't rely on places like this or faceless people like me to inform you of that. Do your own research and make sure that research doesn't come from social media. Realize that a source that uses any adjective other than 'republican' or 'democrat' to describe a political figure is almost certainly biased and unreliable.

Opinions are great. They are also completely worthless if you can't defend them with reasoning, evidence and/or logic. Anyone who responds to an attack of their opinion by stating something along the lines of, "Oh I didn't realize I couldn't have an opinion" should be dismissed. They have just informed you that they are not worth listening to if you value your own time. You can have your opinion, but no one is obligated to listen to you or take you seriously if you can't back that opinion up with reason. This is a discussion board. If you can't discuss the strengths and weaknesses of your opinion, you aren't contributing anything.

 

[KingBran]

So the goalie situation I believe has....
Oh...

 

[Rarename91]

it wont hurt to look at signing a starter in the post season,

 

[Brian39]

Hey guys Canucks fan here, can someone please explain to me why Allen is getting more and more starts.

To me Binnington has been absolutely fantastic and should be your clear number 1, he’s saved your season and been of the best goalies in the league since taking over. Because he lost a few games you guys are going back to your below .500, below league average goalie? To me that makes little sense.

I’m mad because I have Binnington in my fantasy league, but because of that I’ve been watching him play more and more and he has impressed me.

I think the reason is two-fold:

1: Level of recent play. Binny has hit a rough patch. He's carrying an .868 over his last 3 starts and a .902 over his last 6. That translates to 0 quality starts in his last 3 games and 2 quality starts out of his last 6. A 'quality start' is defined as league average SV% or better or an .885 or better in a game with 20 or fewer shots against. Meanwhile, Allen has been lights out over his last 3 (.951 SV%) and his last 6 starts (.942 SV%). Allen has been objectively outplaying Binny for the last 3 weeks. I'm not concerned about this stretch of play by Binny because every goalie in the world is going to go through these types of skids. With that said, most teams would lean a bit heavier on their backup through such a stretch if the backup heats up.

2: The schedule. Allen has been significantly better on the road than at home for the last 3 seasons (and this season has seen the largest gap between home and away stats). Allen hasn't played a home game in over 2 months at this point, so it seems that the organization is putting some faith in those numbers. 7 of our last 11 games have been on the road and 6 of those 11 games have been part of back-to-backs where you would expect each goalie to grab a start.

3/9 and 3/12 are the only games in the last month that Allen has started other than back-to-back situations, so we are really talking about a maximum of 2 starts that Allen has taken from Binny (although I believe that the vast majority of teams would have played their backup against Ottawa last night when you look at the rest of the schedule). Both of those games were on the road and have come at the tail end of a few week stretch where Allen has been outplaying Binny. This might be the organization "going back" to Allen, but it is just as likely that they are giving a hot backup an extra start or two while he's hot and the starter is cold. I believe that Binny will keep the #1 job if he pulls himself out of this mini-funk, but we aren't far enough ahead of the playoff bubble to park a hot goalie on the bench and keep throwing out a slumping rookie game after game based on a 2 month sample size.

 

[Ranksu]

Can't wait to read what will be @Brian39 excuses for Allen tonight.

 

[67Blues]

Oof. Just saw that i still had voted for Allen when this first came out. Had to change my vote.

 

[Foomp Dugan]

How could anyone possibly vote for Allen??

 

[TheDizee]

How could anyone possibly vote for Allen??

same reason people think fabbri should be playing

 

[Cotton McKnight]

same reason people think fabbri should be playing

I voted Allen when the post was originally made. I picked the goalie that had actual multiple NHL starts, because his albatross of a contract would make him hard to move.

Am I supposed to change my vote?

I don't support Allen now. If he and Binnington had started the season together and we saw both play, maybe I vote differently.

Don't try to lump the Fabbri issue into this, that's just poor form and comes off as trolling.

That kid is a hot mess, flip a coin between him and Sandford at this point, it's going to be ugly any way you look at it.

 

[Dbrownss]

We're we suppose to change our vote? Seems disingenuous to do so. At the time of the poll it was Allen, whether we liked it or not. Binnington now has earned the #1 role. Shouldn't be much of an argument.

 

[Halak Ness Monster]

We're we suppose to change our vote? Seems disingenuous to do so. At the time of the poll it was Allen, whether we liked it or not. Binnington now has earned the #1 role. Shouldn't be much of an argument.

I made the argument back then(maybe here but def twitter) that it should be Binnington or anyone else because we 100% KNEW it can't be Jake Allen.

Binny offered hope. Allen offered nothing.

Back then Binnington was showing continued dominance in the AHL. It was completely reminiscent of Ben Bishop's improvement in the AHL and at the same age! All I could picture was Armstrong letting another Bishop get away so he could stick with Jake Allen.

I can't believe we may have actually gotten another Bishop!

Edit: I made a post on page 4 of this thread calling for a ton of playing time for Binnington after his first career start was a shutout. I know I argued for him to get a chance before that but I knew as soon as he got that shutout that it should be Binny time. Allen is terrible. You can't stick with a terrible option just because of his experience. Gotta try to catch lightning in a bottle somewhere or at least see what you have in a completely worthy 25 year old in the AHL.

Edit part 2: Especially since it was clear that the defense was playing much better and Allen was still struggling. You've got to try other options at that point.

 

[Dbrownss]

I made the argument back then(maybe here but def twitter) that it should be Binnington or anyone else because we 100% KNEW it can't be Jake Allen.

Binny offered hope. Allen offered nothing.

Back then Binnington was showing continued dominance in the AHL. It was completely reminiscent of Ben Bishop's improvement in the AHL and at the same age! All I could picture was Armstrong letting another Bishop get away so he could stick with Jake Allen.

I can't believe we may have actually gotten another Bishop!

Edit: I made a post on page 4 of this thread calling for a ton of playing time for Binnington after his first career start was a shutout. I know I argued for him to get a chance before that but I knew as soon as he got that shutout that it should be Binny time. Allen is terrible. You can't stick with a terrible option just because of his experience. Gotta try to catch lightning in a bottle somewhere or at least see what you have in a completely worthy 25 year old in the AHL.

Edit part 2: Especially since it was clear that the defense was playing much better and Allen was still struggling. You've got to try other options at that point.

That's fine, but why would anyone change their vote now though? I dont think there is support for Allen now, I voted Allen but there's no way I'd vote the same way again. Changing my vote just seems like I'd be back peddling. Not sure why some are criticizing poster over a vote 3mo ago

 

[Halak Ness Monster]

That's fine, but why would anyone change their vote now though? I dont think there is support for Allen now, I voted Allen but there's no way I'd vote the same way again. Changing my vote just seems like I'd be back peddling. Not sure why some are criticizing poster over a vote 3mo ago

I thought this was an up-to-date race.

Pretty much a barometer for the fanbase's current opinion on who should be the #1.

I enjoyed watching the poll switch from Allen to tied to slightly in favor of Binnington to overwhelmingly in favor Binnington!

 

[Brian39]

Can't wait to read what will be @Brian39 excuses for Allen tonight.

What's to excuse?

Our backup (or at best current 1B if you believe some media) posted his 4th straight quality start and his 7th quality start in his last 8 games. He was as good or better than the starter/1A has been in 3 of his last 4 starts.

I understand that you are incapable of seeing shades of gray, but just give it a try for once. If Allen was bad and needs 'excuses' for yesterday's game, than so has Binny for his month of March so far. Allen was 'fine' last night, no better and no worse. A good game would have meant 2 goals against, a great game would have meant 1 against, and a bad game would have been a regulation loss with 4+ going in. If you're going to be critical of that showing, then you need to bash Binny for 3 of his last 4 starts. Both of those are silly IMO, but would at least be consistent. I wasn't wild about Allen's play last night, but unless you have a Vezina-contending goalie, you're getting this caliber of outing 30+ times per year out of your goaltending. You're in fantastic shape if this is a 'bad' game out of your backup.

None of this should change the goalie rotation. So far the Blues have done exactly what I suggested a week ago (Binny vs ARI/PIT, Allen vs OTT/BUF). When I made those suggestions, I felt that Binny should get EDM, TBL and VGK while Allen gets DET. I stand by that.

 

[KingBran]

Why are Allen defenders only talking about the past few starts?


Wait, I know. I want to see if they figure it out though.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Why are Allen defenders only talking about the past few starts?


Wait, I know. I want to see if they figure it out though.

Stating that he had an average performance is ‘defending’ him? Brian39 uses facts and statistical analysis of goaltender performances to take the emotion and bias out of it. He advocates for Binnington to get the starter’s games. What about that makes him a ‘defender’ deserving of your lightly given ridicule?

There is not one person on this site pushing for Allen to be the starter. But we can still be honest about the level of his current play. You’d rather we keep analyzing his play from November?

 

[KingBran]

Stating that he had an average performance is ‘defending’ him? Brian39 uses facts and statistical analysis of goaltender performances to take the emotion and bias out of it. He advocates for Binnington to get the starter’s games. What about that makes him a ‘defender’ deserving of your lightly given ridicule?

There is not one person on this site pushing for Allen to be the starter. But we can still be honest about the level of his current play. You’d rather we keep analyzing his play from November?

Season stats:

Allen:
18-17-7 (.428 win %)
2.85 GAA
.904 sv%

Binnington:
17-4-1 (.772 win %)
1.77 GAA
.931 sv%


I am more of an overall stats guy. If people want to cherry-pick 3-5 games so be it. Even the worst goalies in the league will have a good 3-5 starts here and there.


Last 5:

Allen:
1-2-2
2.2 GAA
.919 sv%

Binnington:
3-2-0
2.00 GAA
.917 sv%

"Better" seems to be subjective here.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Season stats:

Allen:
18-17-7 (.428 win %)
2.85 GAA
.904 sv%

Binnington:
17-4-1 (.772 win %)
1.77 GAA
.931 sv%


I am more of an overall stats guy. If people want to cherry-pick 3-5 games so be it. Even the worst goalies in the league will have a good 3-5 starts here and there.


Last 5:

Allen:
1-2-2
2.2 GAA
.919 sv%

Binnington:
3-2-0
2.00 GAA
.917 sv%

"Better" seems to be subjective here.

What are you responding to? I don’t understand your argument.

 

[KingBran]

What are you responding to? I don’t understand your argument.

Well, I quoted you so....

You were saying Brian39 uses stats and facts to back up their claims. I posted the stats and facts you are referring to (that they did not actually post like you said they did.) Also, they did not say "average performance", they said "better" hence the last comment I made.

You say I am giving ridiclue. Seriously? Its an internet forum. Someone might have a different opinion.

 

[TK 421]

Why are Allen defenders only talking about the past few starts?


Wait, I know. I want to see if they figure it out though.

I don't like Jake Allen, neither do most of the people you're accusing of being his defenders. It's a necessary evil unless you're suggesting we should just start riding Binny now and only address fatigue concerns as we approach the PO's. I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude here but that sounds like a horrible game plan.

I understand wanting to get Binny extra starts but we're not in a desperate situation where we have to do that yet and possibly won't be in that position at all so I don't understand the desire to push into doing things that way prematurely. We will definitely see him more on this homestand and it should net the result you're looking for(more games for Binny and hopefully wins).

 

[KingBran]

I don't like Jake Allen, neither do most of the people you're accusing of being his defenders. It's a necessary evil unless you're suggesting we should just start riding Binny now and only address fatigue concerns as we approach the PO's. I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude here but that sounds like a horrible game plan.

I understand wanting to get Binny extra starts but we're not in a desperate situation where we have to do that yet and possibly won't be in that position at all so I don't understand the desire to push into doing things that way prematurely. We will definitely see him more on this homestand and it should net the result you're looking for(more games for Binny and hopefully wins).

Who was I saying is an Allen defender? I have never called anyone specifically an Allen defender. If there really aren't many then my comment should fall on deaf ears. But its causing a stir it seems. So you and others must think i am talking about people YOU perceve as an Allen defender then I guess? It really was just a general comment.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Well, I quoted you so....

You were saying Brian39 uses stats and facts to back up their claims. I posted the stats and facts you are referring to (that they did not actually post like you said they did.) Also, they did not say "average performance", they said "better" hence the last comment I made.

You say I am giving ridiclue. Seriously? Its an internet forum. Someone might have a different opinion.

You labeled Brain an "Allen defender", which I assume is a reference to his pattern of opinions from earlier posts. If you look at his post history, you'll see he's one of the most fact-based posters with regard to goaltending. I was referring to that history, not a single post. He consistently pulls facts and more informative stats to support his position.

Posting the season-long save percentage is not really drilling down very much, but what exactly is your point? Are you trying to persuade us that Allen has been mediocre at best this year? Everyone here already knows that. No one is disputing that. But we also can acknowledge that he's played "better" than the early season level of play, lately. Average to slightly above average NOW is "better" than below average THEN.

Finally, you post cute emojis and sarcastic tone, but tell people to chill out if they disagree with you. I'm chilled. But you're pretending to have an argument when no one is actually advocating for the position you're arguing against. You act like Brian is saying Allen should be the starting goalie. You're tilting at windmills here, but in a way that shows disrespect to some fellow-fans.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Who was I saying is an Allen defender? I have never called anyone specifically an Allen defender. If there really aren't many then my comment should fall on deaf ears. But its causing a stir it seems. So you and others must think i am talking about people YOU perceve as an Allen defender then I guess? It really was just a general comment.

You posted this immediately after Brian commented on the last 8 games. You're being mealy-mouthed about your argument now.