OT: Blues #1 goaltender Allen vs. Hutton?

[Thallis]

Are you talking about goalies or prospects in general?

I don't think that the fans seen Allen as a great prospect until his call-up during the lockout shortened season. He steadied the ship, and the next season had an excellent year in the AHL. That's where the serious expectations on him came from.

We traded Ben Bishop because of a numbers game, and he was going to be a UFA at the end of the season. The next season he was an above average goalie in the League. Can't really argue with the development there. The funny thing is that if Elliott had been terrible to start the 11/12 season, rather than Halák, then Bishop would have been called up and would likely still be here.

I don't think that's quite right. There was some considerable hype for Jake after he won Goalie of the Year in the Q along with being the Canada WJC starter. That was when all this "goalie of the future" started, I know I remember Kerber calling him that a few times in post game shows before he had played a game in the NHL.

 

[BlueDream]

Yeah there was absolutely hype for Allen. He started for Canada in the WJC for crying out loud. And yeah even though he botched that, nobody plays for Canada without being a fairly hyped prospect. It may not be at Husso level, but people liked him when we were going through this same stuff with Halak.

Out of all the former Blues in the league, I really don't miss any of them besides Bishop. That one hurts now.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Yeah there was absolutely hype for Allen. He started for Canada in the WJC for crying out loud. And yeah even though he botched that, nobody plays for Canada without being a fairly hyped prospect. It may not be at Husso level, but people liked him when we were going through this same stuff with Halak.

Out of all the former Blues in the league, I really don't miss any of them besides Bishop. That one hurts now.

Good memories.

 

[Cotton McKnight]

So, we'll move on from Allen, for Husso or some unnamed goalie. With this being STL, we'll be having the same conversation about goaltenders in 4-5 years.

I hope some prospect proves me waaaaaaaaaaaaaay wrong.

 

[Alklha]

I don't think that's quite right. There was some considerable hype for Jake after he won Goalie of the Year in the Q along with being the Canada WJC starter. That was when all this "goalie of the future" started, I know I remember Kerber calling him that a few times in post game shows before he had played a game in the NHL.

Yeah there was absolutely hype for Allen. He started for Canada in the WJC for crying out loud. And yeah even though he botched that, nobody plays for Canada without being a fairly hyped prospect. It may not be at Husso level, but people liked him when we were going through this same stuff with Halak.

Out of all the former Blues in the league, I really don't miss any of them besides Bishop. That one hurts now.

Maybe it is the different situations that are clouding my memory.

As it is the fan expectations on Husso are far higher than I ever remember on Allen before he was called up. That might simply be because the Halák trade, Bishop being ahead of him and Elliott & Halák having the great year before the lockout just meant that there wasn't a fan focus on Allen. Now, since there aren't so many reasons to be optimistic, Husso is getting a lot more attention.

 

[Borderbluesfan]

Saw Husso play yesterday in San Antonio. What I liked is that he is tall and covers the net well. He is very positionally sound. The Rampage lost the game in 3 v 3 OT. Husso gave up one goal in regulation against the PP where he was screened and there was a deflection. He had good position. Lots of attempts on bad angles against him and he was always there including top corner shots. He got beat in OT on a three on one break where he got beat by the shooter but was also trying to play the other two players breaking in undefended. Poor defense by the only player back in coverage. He looks like a good, tall athletic goalie that holds his position. Saw him up close with the mask off and all I could think is that he looks like a kid, lol. Young goalie, but he looks good.

 

[TruBlu]

I hope Husso has another year in the minors. He's not been a brick wall in net for the entire season. I think another year would really help him.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

When it comes to Elliott, my opinion is that I consider Jake Allen = Brian Elliott.

When they're on their game, I'd tip the hat a little more (not much tho) to Elliott because he has an insane ceiling when he catches fire. Allen, not so much imo, but when hot. either netminder can carry and do the impossible, but they're really the same netminder and there's not much difference beyond Elliott having won the Jennings (with Halak) and Elliott having more Blues records than Allen, fluke or not and an All-Star appearance (which really means nothing in the current format). Regardless, to me, they're the same guy.

Carter Hutton seems to follow along the same lines as them as well. I guess what I'm saying is that the Blues honestly don't have elite netminding and what was believed in Allen when he came into the league is far, far more believed in with Husso. Having offense and especially defense s*it the bed with whatever (lack of) system Yeo thinks he's running just makes those matters worse.

To make a long post even longer, I'm concerned that our farm system and development is failing at developing solid players on the farm level or if the team is simply not signing and acquiring via draft as true blue chip prospects as the scouts swear they are. We've had several, possibly including Allen, who were heavily touted and when they come up they either fall apart, don't do very well or just well enough and they rarely find their game with another team, if traded off.

Thoughts?

Excuse me? Aside from the accomplishments he has over Jake that you've listed let's go over what else Brian Elliott has on Jake Allen and why they are not even remotely the same player. Brian Elliott has taken the Blues farther than any Blues team has gone in over 40 years by having an insane run. He broke a record of having the best save percentage for goalies that started 25 or more posting a 1.56 GAA and .940 Sv% in 38GP. Something Jake will NEVER even dream of accomplishing. Let's look at stats as a blue.

Elliott:
Regular Season
181 GP
2.03 GAA
.923 SV%
25 SO
334 GA

Playoffs
33GP
2.25 GAA
.914 Sv%* Removed 1 game from 2014 playoffs playing only 26 minutes letting in only 1 goal posting a .857 SV%
1 SO
86 GA
14 W
20 L

Allen:
Regular Season
204 GP
2.47 GAA
.913 Sv%
16 SO
467 GA

Playoffs
22 GP* Removed 1 Game where Jake only played 1 minute and didn't face a shot.
2.10 GAA
.922 SV%
0 SO
41 GA
9 W
10 L

This was all while Jake was getting his hand held until they could finally be rid of that pest Brian Elliott and give Jake the reigns that he rightfully DIDN'T earn. Now we are stuck with a guy who can barely handle a 1B situation as our #1 goalie for the next 3 years.

 

[DeuceNine]

Now we are stuck with a guy who can barely handle a 1B situation as our #1 goalie for the next 3 years.

Any asset is movable/removable. Just depends on what is considered an acceptable return.

 

[TruBlu]

Excuse me? Aside from the accomplishments he has over Jake that you've listed let's go over what else Brian Elliott has on Jake Allen and why they are not even remotely the same player. Brian Elliott has taken the Blues farther than any Blues team has gone in over 40 years by having an insane run. He broke a record of having the best save percentage for goalies that started 25 or more posting a 1.56 GAA and .940 Sv% in 38GP. Something Jake will NEVER even dream of accomplishing. Let's look at stats as a blue.

Elliott:
Regular Season
181 GP
2.03 GAA
.923 SV%
25 SO
334 GA

Playoffs
33GP
2.25 GAA
.914 Sv%* Removed 1 game from 2014 playoffs playing only 26 minutes letting in only 1 goal posting a .857 SV%
1 SO
86 GA
14 W
20 L

Allen:
Regular Season
204 GP
2.47 GAA
.913 Sv%
16 SO
467 GA

Playoffs
22 GP* Removed 1 Game where Jake only played 1 minute and didn't face a shot.
2.10 GAA
.922 SV%
0 SO
41 GA
9 W
10 L

This was all while Jake was getting his hand held until they could finally be rid of that pest Brian Elliott and give Jake the reigns that he rightfully DIDN'T earn. Now we are stuck with a guy who can barely handle a 1B situation as our #1 goalie for the next 3 years.

Jake Allen's age: 27 Brian Elliott's age: 32

By your logic, we should just hold on to Jake a few more years so he can post numbers we can cherry pick.

 

[Ranksu]

Well, Allen need to fix his game at off-season or his future in Blues will come to end. Note also Husso pushing hard to NHL and if he's good pace and progress well I believe he can already next year compete at NHL level.

 

[TK 421]

Well, Allen need to fix his game at off-season or his future in Blues will come to end. Note also Husso pushing hard to NHL and if he's good pace and progress well I believe he can already next year compete at NHL level.

I think Husso is ready to take the next step and be our backup next season. This is a guy that has been a pro for a few seasons now and I think it's time to change our approach a bit in regards to our goaltenders.

 

[Alklha]

I think Husso is ready to take the next step and be our backup next season. This is a guy that has been a pro for a few seasons now and I think it's time to change our approach a bit in regards to our goaltenders.

I'd be open to idea of Husso as backup next season if we had stable NHL goaltending. Going into next season with Allen and Husso is a pretty big risk, and I wouldn't want to be putting Husso in a bad position if Allen is crapping the bed again.

 

[Ranksu]

I'd be open to idea of Husso as backup next season if we had stable NHL goaltending. Going into next season with Allen and Husso is a pretty big risk, and I wouldn't want to be putting Husso in a bad position if Allen is crapping the bed again.

Ofc I'm hyping Husso, ofc I quote myself, but its nice to Rampage coaches see same things what I've praised about Husso earlier when he came to NA.

"You can easily see that he's calm when he plays, focused on what he has to do, and believes in his style. He keeps everybody calm when he plays."

Its good we've potential NHL caliber goaltender who's cool as 'viilipytty'.


(finnish word for guy who's relax and doesn't stress out of anything)

 

[Captain Creampuff]

Jake Allen's age: 27 Brian Elliott's age: 32

By your logic, we should just hold on to Jake a few more years so he can post numbers we can cherry pick.

Cherry pick what? I excluded 1 playoff game from Elliott where he had to come in relief of Jake letting up 3 goals against a weak Minnesota team. Everything else is their full stats as a Blue.

 

[TK 421]

I'd be open to idea of Husso as backup next season if we had stable NHL goaltending. Going into next season with Allen and Husso is a pretty big risk, and I wouldn't want to be putting Husso in a bad position if Allen is crapping the bed again.

Because we have an unstable starter is exactly the reason I'd like to shift our current organizational philosophy re: goaltending. I know it's a risk but there is also potential reward.

Husso plays a style that we've seen work well here so I don't regard him as a big risk and if he should look overwhelmed we can grab Jake another backup pretty easily. We'd be in the market for another career backup who is a stylistic fit to bridge Husso which wouldn't be terrible but I'd like to take him as backup initially to at least try it. Dangles that carrot right in front of him and if/when Allen struggles we have a potential starter right there with a golden opportunity.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Excuse me? Aside from the accomplishments he has over Jake that you've listed let's go over what else Brian Elliott has on Jake Allen and why they are not even remotely the same player. Brian Elliott has taken the Blues farther than any Blues team has gone in over 40 years by having an insane run. He broke a record of having the best save percentage for goalies that started 25 or more posting a 1.56 GAA and .940 Sv% in 38GP. Something Jake will NEVER even dream of accomplishing. Let's look at stats as a blue.

Elliott:
Regular Season
181 GP
2.03 GAA
.923 SV%
25 SO
334 GA

Playoffs
33GP
2.25 GAA
.914 Sv%* Removed 1 game from 2014 playoffs playing only 26 minutes letting in only 1 goal posting a .857 SV%
1 SO
86 GA
14 W
20 L

Allen:
Regular Season
204 GP
2.47 GAA
.913 Sv%
16 SO
467 GA

Playoffs
22 GP* Removed 1 Game where Jake only played 1 minute and didn't face a shot.
2.10 GAA
.922 SV%
0 SO
41 GA
9 W
10 L

This was all while Jake was getting his hand held until they could finally be rid of that pest Brian Elliott and give Jake the reigns that he rightfully DIDN'T earn. Now we are stuck with a guy who can barely handle a 1B situation as our #1 goalie for the next 3 years.

Obviously the part where I note that it's my opinion has absolutely eluded you. You have an opinion and I respect that but don't respond as if I'm trying to pass off my opinion as a fact. I'm not.

As for the two of them, Allen and Elliott have VERY LONG cold streaks and both suffer from similar dips and dives. What I SAID, if you want to quote me, is that between the two of them, Elliott, when hot, has a ridiculously high ceiling, as in if Elliott caught fire at the right time, he's a guy who can easily hit .930 and above. If his coaches can figure out what part of that makes him tick and get that reliably out of him, Brian Elliott would be the best netminder, hands-down, in the league.

His positioning, when he's dialed in, is absolutely second to none. But his problem, like Allen, is consistency. Elliott has not hit that one year mark that garnered him the majority of records and awards since and hey, I'm an Elliott fan all the way through, but I'm being honest when I say it might be a fluke. Right place, right people, right time, right goaltending. He hasn't repeated it since or for any other team.

Also mind that, the team he was on was a Hitchcock ran D-first team and Hitchcock is the king of running a defense team. Factor that in while you're at it and also factor that when Yeo took over, Allen's numbers took a quick dive. This tells me that both Allen and Elliott are 1B/Backup netminders who benefit greatly from a D-first system, and imo (read: IN MY OPINION), it's as simple as that.

So yes, Allen = Elliott, but given the option, I'd run Brian Elliott and I would never have gotten rid of Halak for Ryan friggin Miller. Halak + Elliott was imo the premier Blues tandem since Hall/Plante and if you let Halak or Elliott walk away, they should have been replaced by Bishop, not Allen.

 

[TruBlu]

Just wanted to bump this thread so Ranksu could run PR for Husso.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I thought Allen was really solid on the west coast trip. Tonight was just really fustrating and disappointing.

Goal #2 really looked like it hit off his thumb. I have slowed down every angle and there is no clear picture. I just don't see where Landeskog got a piece of it.

Goal #3 was just horrible positioning. Puck hit his glove and then up. ~18-20" off the ice.

Here is what most NHL goalies do on those type angle shots. Go down in butterfly but keep your upper body upright.

 

[carter333167]

I really hope the Blues don't bank another season on Jake. Two massive swoons is enough for me.

 

[Thallis]

I thought Allen was really solid on the west coast trip. Tonight was just really fustrating and disappointing.

Goal #2 really looked like it hit off his thumb. I have slowed down every angle and there is no clear picture. I just don't see where Landeskog got a piece of it.

Goal #3 was just horrible positioning. Puck hit his glove and then up. ~18-20" off the ice.

Here is what most NHL goalies do on those type angle shots. Go down in butterfly but keep your upper body upright.

He didn't even need to go down. Look at his glove hand in that picture. It's a classic example of a goalie being lazy and dropping his glove to leave the corner open. Dunn had the entire far side of the net sealed off. Just put your glove up as he comes in and it's a routine save. This is what Steve Mason did in Columbus that got him lit up year after year.

 

[Note Worthy]

He didn't even need to go down. Look at his glove hand in that picture. It's a classic example of a goalie being lazy and dropping his glove to leave the corner open. Dunn had the entire far side of the net sealed off. Just put your glove up as he comes in and it's a routine save. This is what Steve Mason did in Columbus that got him lit up year after year.

Yeah I have no idea why he went down. It wasn't a good shot and should have been a pretty routine save.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I have no idea why he played that 3rd goal the way he did. Dunn played it pretty well when he got back into the zone and was cutting off the opposite side while being ready to pounce on a pass. Jake had the shooter and it's like he didn't read or follow what Rantanen was doing. To me, Jake went down to early but more importantly he was leaning away from the post instead of keeping his upper body square. I was telling my nephew as we were watching it that Jake didn't need to end up on his belly at the end. There just too much movement in his game still.

I think at this point, Armstrong needs to force Yeo to try Husso. Give the kid his shot. It truthfully can't hurt you.

 

[Ranksu]

I couldn't tell you, I don't watch replays, I'll have to watch it again.

If Allen can give damn good review on 2nd goal, but don't remember anything on 3rd goal is just bs. Just tell you read the play wrong and make yourself in bad spot open up only possible scoring change. Rookie mistake.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

Ok first of all with the 2nd goal. He shouldn't have been "Trying to put a glove on it" those are the types of shots where you go into butterfly and let the f***ing shot hit your chest and then cover it. You aren't a god damn baseball catcher. I am so f***ing sick of this clown on our team.