OT: Blues #1 goaltender Allen vs. Hutton?

[Ranksu]

We need to run with Hutton, he's giving team change to win. Stellar performance against Leafs. Let Allen take longer break.

 

[Ranksu]

Hutton is our #1

 

[Reality Czech]

Hutton is our #1

For now, yes. Almost everything is subject to change.

 

[TheDizee]

There is no controversy, its about getting points. Right now, Hutton gives us the better shot at getting them.

If this was game 1 of the playoffs, first crack goes to Jake.

 

[TruBlu]

Let’s chart out this St. Louis Blues "goalie controversy."

Saw this article this morning. A lot of numbers, but it confirms the eye test for me.

 

[Ranksu]

Let’s chart out this St. Louis Blues "goalie controversy."

Saw this article this morning. A lot of numbers, but it confirms the eye test for me.

Yes Hutton is Blues #1 goaltender. Don't know how much longer Hutton can keep up this level, but I've to say its not going to pretty if Allen can't find his A+ level. Am I worried about it no, 'cus I don't see this team having legit change to deep run at playoffs, but Allen's sake I'm worried, cus Husso is coming and his goaltending style fits perfectly to steady, good rebound control and calm and not aggressive play style.

 

[tfriede2]

Posted this in the discussion thread:

Have we passed the point of still being able to call Allen our starter? I was honestly very surprised that Hutton got the call last night again - I agreed with the decision, but didn't think that decision would be made. Usually Hitch would roll with the "hot hand" between Elliott and Allen, but then look for an excuse to get Allen starts - the Ottawa game was a perfect excuse for Yeo, since Hutton got pulled against Arizona - and yet, he still went with Hutton; this is a damning statement to Allen, IMO. He can't be happy.

You don't get to be called the number one starter after going this many games without starting.

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

Here's a list of teams whose backup goaltenders have a higher save percentage and/or lower GAA than their #1 goaltender:

Anaheim
Boston
Calgary
Carolina
Edmonton
Los Angeles
Minnesota
Montreal
New York Rangers
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
San Jose
St. Louis
Las Vegas
Washington

Some of those have bigger gaps than others, but that's still half the league whose backups are "outperforming" the starter by some metric.

It's almost like coaches intentionally try to pick spots where the backups are most likely to succeed while giving their #1 goaltenders the biggest workloads and hardest assignments.

It's also almost like even backup goaltenders can perform to high standards over sample sizes of 10 to 15 starts.

It's going to take a lot more than that to convince most of those teams that the backup should really be the starter, and vice versa. To me, it's not even a question. This team is going to sink or swim this year with Allen.

old post but I disagree. usually I see the backups thrown to the wolves as to keep the starter's confidance up... he backup performs because he has to or he doesnt have a job next year... and he has so much rest he isnt relied upon night in night out that he performs better

 

[Ranksu]

Hutton is such a beast.

 

[Dbrownss]

Hutton is such a beast.

He really is playing out of his mind. Jake had a great game against Boston and Hutton still out performed him lol.

 

[TheDizee]

seen enough of jake after today and that first goal especially. garbage.

i thought he had a solid game vs the jets and was starting to turn the page but this has clearly shown otherwise. play hutton until he runs out of gas. the softy backbreaker goals can be stomached when the team is scoring but not when they consistently struggle to score 2+ a game.

 

[mw2noobbuster]

There's already a thread on this debate.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Letting in easy ones like Crosby’s 400th turned the tide of the game IMO. We can’t have that. Not if you want to go far in the playoffs, or you have an offensive juggernaut that makes up for it.

 

[Bluesguru]

I don't think it's fair to put the Pens lost on Allen today. I mean, my goodness, we can't expect a lockdown, shutdown performance in goal every game to bail us out for a win. I mean our players have to go out and win hockey games too and we didn't do that today. We only scored 1 goal today and that was from our 4th line. That kind of production won't win many hockey games period.

I do think Hutton should be number 1 until he proves otherwise. Jake is prone to bad goals, there's no doubt about that and our team isn't good enough to overcome that.

 

[67Blues]

When you aren't scoring, and your goalie lets in a weak goal, or is less than stellar, everyone squeezes sawdust from their sticks. If you are scoring at the clip they were to start the season, this wouldn't be as glaring. With the state of the offense, the microscope shift to Allen and every mistake just seems amplified and then it most likely gets into his head too as he feels that he has to steal every single game.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

I don't think it's fair to put the Pens lost on Allen today. I mean, my goodness, we can't expect a lockdown, shutdown performance in goal every game to bail us out for a win. I mean our players have to go out and win hockey games too and we didn't do that today. We only scored 1 goal today and that was from our 4th line. That kind of production won't win many hockey games period.

I do think Hutton should be number 1 until he proves otherwise. Jake is prone to bad goals, there's no doubt about that and our team isn't good enough to overcome that.

The first goal was incredibly weak and momentum killing. Additionally, allens pkst game pisses me off cuz he excuses himself for that goal while saying team lost because of dunn and petros mistakes.

"That's why he's the best player in the world," Allen said. "I would never play that any differently. He's one hell of a smart player. It was a pretty good shot."

"They wait for teams to make mistakes, we coughed a couple nice ones up"

Refuses to take blane for his goal. Add while he was saying he did nothing wrong and crosby just shot awesome shot, Crosby was surprised it went in.
"I still don’t know how it trickled in,” Crosby said.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

Allen's career is looking a lot like Halak's.

 

[DeuceNine]

The first goal was incredibly weak and momentum killing. Additionally, allens pkst game pisses me off cuz he excuses himself for that goal while saying team lost because of dunn and petros mistakes.

"That's why he's the best player in the world," Allen said. "I would never play that any differently. He's one hell of a smart player. It was a pretty good shot."

"They wait for teams to make mistakes, we coughed a couple nice ones up"

Refuses to take blane for his goal. Add while he was saying he did nothing wrong and crosby just shot awesome shot, Crosby was surprised it went in.
"I still don’t know how it trickled in,” Crosby said.

I would have played that that way too. Crosby loves those by-the-feet shortside shots that are very tough to handle. You have to go to that move if you suspect he won't be able to roof it. The rebound whack is the problem. That comes from taking your weight off the pad you're leaning on and opening a crack. It doesn't take much, believe me.

 

[HighNote]

I see several people saying that they've given up on Allen and some say that we should consider trading him. I'm a bit confused.

Since December 10th (when things started going down the drain), we have 71 goals. This is good for 30th in the league in that span, only better than Montreal (and look who their goalie is). I guess where I get confused is...why are we expecting Allen to be successful when we're scoring 2.22 GPG, and why, when he doesn't meet these expectations, are we considering trading him?

In the same time period, we've given up only 84 goals. That's good for 11th best in the league, which is pretty damn good considering that we're 14-18 in those 32 games. To put this into perspective, the NY Islanders have gotten the same amount of points as the Blues since Dec. 10th while giving up 123 goals. That's 39 more than us, yet they have the same amount of points.

I'm not saying that Allen hasn't been bad, because he has been bad. What I'm saying is, you can't just jump to "it's clear Allen isn't working here, it's time to move on." You have to look at the possible factors that play into why he's been bad. The biggest factor in my opinion is goal support. As said above, we're nearly dead last in the entire league in goals for in the last 32 games and the team below us (Montreal) has played three less games than us. It all comes down to WE NEED MORE GOAL SCORING.

Let's fix the hole in the ceiling before we start replacing the carpet.

If I could sum up the reason we've been bad in

 

[Alklha]

I see several people saying that they've given up on Allen and some say that we should consider trading him. I'm a bit confused.

Since December 10th (when things started going down the drain), we have 71 goals. This is good for 30th in the league in that span, only better than Montreal (and look who their goalie is). I guess where I get confused is...why are we expecting Allen to be successful when we're scoring 2.22 GPG, and why, when he doesn't meet these expectations, are we considering trading him?

In the same time period, we've given up only 84 goals. That's good for 11th best in the league, which is pretty damn good considering that we're 14-18 in those 32 games. To put this into perspective, the NY Islanders have gotten the same amount of points as the Blues since Dec. 10th while giving up 123 goals. That's 39 more than us, yet they have the same amount of points.

I'm not saying that Allen hasn't been bad, because he has been bad. What I'm saying is, you can't just jump to "it's clear Allen isn't working here, it's time to move on." You have to look at the possible factors that play into why he's been bad. The biggest factor in my opinion is goal support. As said above, we're nearly dead last in the entire league in goals for in the last 32 games and the team below us (Montreal) has played three less games than us. It all comes down to WE NEED MORE GOAL SCORING.

Let's fix the hole in the ceiling before we start replacing the carpet.

If I could sum up the reason we've been bad in

Interesting that you choose to omit Allen's sv% over that span. He was an AHL calibre goalie for the first half of last season and he has reverted back to that form over the past couple of months. Our backup isn't having a problem putting up stats. Make other excuses, but Jake Allen is part of the problem.

We need to find a way to score, there is absolutely no doubt about that. When we do score, it doesn't help if the goalie immediately lets in a pathetic goal, like Allen did against Pittsburgh. We continue to play well, until Allen lets in another soft goal after Dunn made a terrible play. Last night we start strong, an AHL'er makes a bad play that leads to a goal and Allen immediately lets in a softie to put us in a hole. As Easton said in the other thread, we scored 3 & 4 in his starts at the start of January, and he conceded 5 in both.

I don't understand why anyone would make excuses for Jake Allen. Every other Blues player under Armstrong has had to earn their position, Jake Allen was handed his. Since he was handed it, he hasn't shown he is a legit starter in the League.

Now, if he can step up down the stretch and in the playoffs... I'm fine with Allen. That will be two seasons in a row he has stepped up when it matters, and that makes me inclined to overlook his rollercoaster regular seasons.

Anything less? We are looking to compete now. We can't be going into seasons relying on a guy who continually shows that he can't be relied upon.

 

[MissouriMook]

We’re straying off topic (trades) a bit, but can we all just agree that we need scoring -AND- better play from Allen? There just seems to be too many people eager to discuss one and ignore the other. I would guess that >80% of our board recognizes issues with both, so hopefully going forward we can discuss these issues more productively by acknowledging that both issues need to be addressed either now or in the off-season.

 

[carter333167]

Before December 10th

Jake Allen		Carter Hutton
17-6-2 (3rd)	Record (NHL Rank)	4-2-0 (43rd)
2.53 (21st)	GAA (NHL Rank)	1.88 (6th)
.913 (34th)	SV % (NHL Rank)	.936 (6th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Since December 10th

Jake Allen		Carter Hutton
2-12-0 (60th)	Record (NHL Rank)	11-4-2 (14th)
3.12 (58th)	GAA (NHL Rank)	1.86 (7th)
.896 (65th)	SV % (NHL Rank)	.938 (10th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[TK 421]

Before December 10th

Jake Allen		Carter Hutton
17-6-2 (3rd)	Record (NHL Rank)	4-2-0 (43rd)
2.53 (21st)	GAA (NHL Rank)	1.88 (6th)
.913 (34th)	SV % (NHL Rank)	.936 (6th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Since December 10th

Jake Allen		Carter Hutton
2-12-0 (60th)	Record (NHL Rank)	11-4-2 (14th)
3.12 (58th)	GAA (NHL Rank)	1.86 (7th)
.896 (65th)	SV % (NHL Rank)	.938 (10th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ville Husso come on down! You're next buddy!


How many years left on Jake's contract?

 

[Ranksu]

Before December 10th

Jake Allen		Carter Hutton
17-6-2 (3rd)	Record (NHL Rank)	4-2-0 (43rd)
2.53 (21st)	GAA (NHL Rank)	1.88 (6th)
.913 (34th)	SV % (NHL Rank)	.936 (6th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Since December 10th

Jake Allen		Carter Hutton
2-12-0 (60th)	Record (NHL Rank)	11-4-2 (14th)
3.12 (58th)	GAA (NHL Rank)	1.86 (7th)
.896 (65th)	SV % (NHL Rank)	.938 (10th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jeesus those numbers are terrible.

Btw is there goaltender who is worse then Allen?

 

[HighNote]

I said Allen has been bad. I’m not excusing this, I’m just saying we should not be giving up on him until we address bigger issues first (scoring). We’re taking for granted that we have a Husso-caliber goalie in the cupboard and writing off the guy that has proven he can perform when it matters. I’m simply suggesting we stop judging him on a handful of games where the WHOLE team has been pretty garbage.