"Blow the Zone" Horvat Strikes Back

[racerjoe]

I’m saying this management team actually should have signed him to a much more manageable figure, earlier. They initially tried to with the RNH comparison. That wasn’t going to work, but a deal in the mid $6m range would have made sense for both sides.

It’s because this management team decided to low ball and slow play him, and risk his performance in season that his price became too rich. Had they not done so, he would still be a Canuck.

Miller/Horvat was not mutually exclusive either. Horvat’s money is just going to go to Hronek instead. Meaning, the budget to sign both was there. They just screwed it up and moved laterally as a consolation.

Horvat was asking for 7.75 before the season.

Bo Horvat's agent comments on contract extension talks with Canucks

Pat Morris, agent for Canucks captain Bo Horvat, discussed the ongoing contract talks with the team and was asked if they would continue during the season.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[strattonius]

I’m saying this management team actually should have signed him to a much more manageable figure, earlier. They initially tried to with the RNH comparison. That wasn’t going to work, but a deal in the mid $6m range would have made sense for both sides.

It’s because this management team decided to low ball and slow play him, and risk his performance in season that his price became too rich. Had they not done so, he would still be a Canuck.

Miller/Horvat was not mutually exclusive either. Horvat’s money is just going to go to Hronek instead. Meaning, the budget to sign both was there. They just screwed it up and moved laterally as a consolation.

Your theory is getting turned on its head. You wanted the Canucks to pay both Miller and Horvat and somehow re-shape our defense?

I don't know I think management deserves nothing but credit on how they moved Horvat. If Ratu turns in to a player it's an even bigger fleecing.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Or…the better strategy to balance the cap was to keep one and spend the money for the other on a top 4 RHD. It’s the strategy I would have done. of course only because they have another elite centre in the mix.

That C was utilized on LW just fine. He could play both, while providing redundancy at C.

A better cap strategy would have been to sign both, and jettison another bad contract to sign a RHD. Or to position the team to get one later.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Your theory is getting turned on its head. You wanted the Canucks to pay both Miller and Horvat and somehow re-shape our defense?

I don't know I think management deserves nothing but credit on how they moved Horvat. If Ratu turns in to a player it's an even bigger fleecing.

I’m not confident Ratu is a player.

Please see my other post about jettisoning other cap for a RHD. And if the counterpoint to that is that they are cash strapped, then I would ask you how do they intend to improve the team from this point forward anyway, given that restriction?

Horvat was asking for 7.75 before the season.

Bo Horvat's agent comments on contract extension talks with Canucks

Pat Morris, agent for Canucks captain Bo Horvat, discussed the ongoing contract talks with the team and was asked if they would continue during the season.

www.sportsnet.ca

That’s an ask. An opening volley. By contrast, the Canucks wanted him at the RNH deal to start. Were they being realistic?

Neither party was close to start, and that’s negotiation.

 

[iceburg]

That C was utilized on LW just fine. He could play both, while providing redundancy at C.

A better cap strategy would have been to sign both, and jettison another bad contract to sign a RHD. Or to position the team to get one later.

Good in theory. But at the end of the day all the modelling in the world gives way to real options.

 

[Wry n Ginger]

Horvat is gone. I doubt any Canuck fans would have wanted to keep him at the salary he signed at. Now that both teams seasons are over it's time to let him go and let the threads about him disappear from our boards.

Future discussion about him should be kept to the NHL thread. (Just my opinion of course...)

Good Bye Horvat.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I really don’t think it’s debatable at all. Horvat is a bit better on the draw, but that’s it… I can’t really see any other category where Horvat is better than Miller, and that becomes very clear when you look at the numbers.

He is better at every thing when they dont have the puck, except one thing. Miller is a great F1 on the forecheck.

Horvat is: Faster. Harder worker. Better positionally. Far more consistent back checking. Better shooter / tipping the puck.

And he isn't high maintenance for the coach.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Good in theory. But at the end of the day all the modelling in the world gives way to real options.

Real options that were available at every stage of this botched negotiation with Horvat, not just the point of his exit.

 

[racerjoe]

They initially tried to with the RNH comparison. That wasn’t going to work, but a deal in the mid $6m range would have made sense for both sides.

That’s an ask. An opening volley. By contrast, the Canucks wanted him at the RNH deal to start. Were they being realistic?

Neither party was close to start, and that’s negotiation.

Listen to yourself...

The deal you wanted... if it existed was exactly in the middle of what the Canucks offered (rumoured) and what the Horvat camp offered. Yet somehow this is all on management?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Horvat was asking for 7.75 before the season.

Bo Horvat's agent comments on contract extension talks with Canucks

Pat Morris, agent for Canucks captain Bo Horvat, discussed the ongoing contract talks with the team and was asked if they would continue during the season.

www.sportsnet.ca

No you are getting things mixed. Couturier is just used as a comparable.

But.. He has 2 seasons of +70 point production and a Selke.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Listen to yourself...

The deal you wanted... if it existed was exactly in the middle of what the Canucks offered (rumoured) and what the Horvat camp offered. Yet somehow this is all on management?

It is because they chose to slow play it, unless you have a report suggesting otherwise? Were there multiple early attempts?

They didn’t even meet with his agent on the occasions when they were in the same town (Dhaliwal). They also chose to sign Miller first and let Horvat hang.

They let him torch the league and completely squander their early negotiating position. Would you call that smart management?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Listen to yourself...

The deal you wanted... if it existed was exactly in the middle of what the Canucks offered (rumoured) and what the Horvat camp offered. Yet somehow this is all on management?

If extending Miller instead of Horvat is not on management... then management can't be blamed for anything. That is fine if that is the opinion you hold but you probably should people talk about management stuff without interjecting all the time.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

He is better at every thing when they dont have the puck, except one thing. Miller is a great F1 on the forecheck.

Horvat is: Faster. Harder worker. Better positionally. Far more consistent back checking. Better shooter / tipping the puck.

And he isn't high maintenance for the coach.

A player who puts up 99 points , followed by 82 points ..isn't a burden on the coach ..Thats laughable.

Your campaign to denigrate Miller has not aged well.

 

[Canucks LB]

He is better at every thing when they dont have the puck, except one thing. Miller is a great F1 on the forecheck.

Horvat is: Faster. Harder worker. Better positionally. Far more consistent back checking. Better shooter / tipping the puck.

And he isn't high maintenance for the coach.

Jt is a better then horvat at basically everything in the offensive zone

 

[CanucksMJL]

They let him torch the league and completely squander their early negotiating position. Would you call that smart management?

The same heater that earned him a bigger payday also made him a more valuable trade piece.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Jt is a better then horvat at basically everything in the offensive zone

Except the things I listed.

 

[Canucks LB]

Except the things I listed.

Disagree, but its fine

 

[Catamarca Livin]

He is better at every thing when they dont have the puck, except one thing. Miller is a great F1 on the forecheck.

Horvat is: Faster. Harder worker. Better positionally. Far more consistent back checking. Better shooter / tipping the puck.

And he isn't high maintenance for the coach.

Miller is a better player, it is not close. The difference is Miller cares more than Bo. Remember all those times Horvat was on the ice in pain after a shot block or him standing toe to toe with a tough guy to protect a teammate? No? me neither. Bo seems like a great guy but he does not sacrifice to win. Why can Bo not pk? Why Bo likely the toughest guy on our team never have a moment where he defended a teammate? because both of those take putting your body at risk. He doesn't do that. Miller does. He blocks shots, he fights the Tkachuks of the league. He fights in game 82 with the season over because he cares and therefore he competes.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Except the things I listed.

You do not need to break down the players to individual parts. One year ago when Horvat was scoring 55 points Miller was scoring 100. This year was close but 3 previous years were not. Horvat 8 goals in 36 games with Islanders shows something as well.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Man! If Horvat had put up that kind of end of the season and playoffs in Vancouver he’d be getting crucified.
Miller may have his faults but he’s a much better player overall and he’s on a better contract.
Not really a tough choice.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Jesus. This thread is going to be around for 8yrs isn't it?

 

[iceburg]

Real options that were available at every stage of this botched negotiation with Horvat, not just the point of his exit.

This assumes a first hand knowledge of all the goings on. Do you have that? It's easy to say "this is what happened" based on a few media reports and then argue that it was good or bad. I know this is the internet but it's not the best argument.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You do not need to break down the players to individual parts. One year ago when Horvat was scoring 55 points Miller was scoring 100. This year was close but 3 previous years were not. Horvat 8 goals in 36 games with Islanders shows something as well.

Miller didnt score 100 points. And if you expect him to in the future you will be terribly disappointed. There is a massive difference between a 99p player and a player that got to 99 points.

The Canucks net PP fell to 17th after Horvat left.

Also Horvat looked pretty damn good for the short while he was playing with a healthy Barzal.

I do agree that Miller is likely producing more points than Horvat in the near future.

Miller is a better player, it is not close. The difference is Miller cares more than Bo. Remember all those times Horvat was on the ice in pain after a shot block or him standing toe to toe with a tough guy to protect a teammate? No? me neither. Bo seems like a great guy but he does not sacrifice to win. Why can Bo not pk? Why Bo likely the toughest guy on our team never have a moment where he defended a teammate? because both of those take putting your body at risk. He doesn't do that. Miller does. He blocks shots, he fights the Tkachuks of the league. He fights in game 82 with the season over because he cares and therefore he competes.

He cant control his emotions.

I know there are people who find this appealing. I dont.

 

[Canucks LB]

Miller didnt score 100 points. And if you expect him to in the future you will be terribly disappointed. There is a massive difference between a 99p player and a player that got to 99 points.

The Canucks net PP fell to 17th after Horvat left.

Also Horvat looked pretty damn good for the short while he was playing with a healthy Barzal.

I do agree that Miller is likely producing more points than Horvat in the near future.



He cant control his emotions.

I know there are people who find this appealing. I dont.

Except he did the moment a new coach came in

 

[iceburg]

I don't know why this is controversial. Horvat just played (prior to the trade) the best stretch of hockey in his life. And, at 28 years old, it very likely could remain the best stretch of hockey of his life. This is the definition of selling high. Major kudos to management for recognizing the situation and having the will and foresight to trade an asset at peak value.

And, I'll add, from a position of strength. From a cap balance standpoint, there is no way a team should have three centres at 10% or greater of the cap. The 3C needs to be closer to 5%. And, before the argument comes up that Miller could play wing, that doesn't make a lot of sense when he's making $8M and is a capable centre. To me this is all about balancing the cap across the line-up.

Now the team just needs to readjust the money they're spending on wingers.