Post-Game Talk (GBU): Blackhawk Downed

MagnumForce2

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I know we rip on Tage and rightfully so at times but Botterill is putting him in a position that sets him up for failure. Tage does have potential but he wont realize itwhen he isnt ready for the nhl game yet and being overwhelmed on a nightly basis.
 
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debaser66

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I know we rip on Tage and rightfully so at times but Botterill is putting him in a position that sets him up for failure. Tage does have potential but he wont realize itwhen he isnt ready for the nhl game yet and being overwhelmed on a nightly basis.
He sure does. But its hard to watch him fail every night and not get sent down especially in January and and mid- february when there was still some chance to make the playoffs...
It certainly doesn't help that he was part of the ROR trade and the 2 vets coming in being bad too.
I think he is a project who needs a lot of help development wise to turn into something or he could just become useless because he is big but he is no power forward like Wilson so I don't know if the comparison fits.
Except for his reach his size seems rather a disadvantage to him especially because he shys away from any sort of physical play.
 

Yultron

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Then why is Tage in the NHL?

We are out of the playoffs, I would give Olofsson, Asplund and even Nylander 5 games each up here, to get the experience.

Send Tage down to let him gain some confidence against lesser opponents.

Thompson will be in the AHL playoffs but I agree that he could be down there right now and gain some confidence back and all
 

Yultron

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And if his first two years as GM have the team getting fewer points than either of the two seasons prior to him becoming GM, how should we feel about the direction of the team under him?

Botterill has a winning background. The guy has won 3 Stanley Cups , 3 World Junior Gold Medals , The Calder Cup and the Frozen Four.

What better candidate was there to hire last offseason ? What more qualified candidate would we have hired with Botterills credentials . Botterill is a draft and develop GM.

I keep saying how he reminds me of Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg . Look at how the Jets fans wanted Cheveldayoffs head for years and now look at how well respected he is with his success drafting and developing his players (Laine, Schifele, Ehlers, Connor , Morrisey etc.

Is it frustrating Botterill hasn’t given us the results that we wanted ? Absolutely we all wanna win like crazy . It might not show for it on the point sheet yet but it will eventually .

Look at all of Botterills solid moves

Trading for Montour, Scandella , Sheary , Skinner have all been wins

O’Reilly is questionable but we won’t know for a while the true value of that trade.

Drafting Dahlin, Middlestadt, Samuelsson, UPL, Laksonen, Davidsson, Pekar etc have been wins with limited picks

He has rebuild the Amerks in less than two years something Murray never could

Patience my friend . I wanna win as bad as anyone but firing Botterill in year two would be just silly.
 

MagnumForce2

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He sure does. But its hard to watch him fail every night and not get sent down especially in January and and mid- february when there was still some chance to make the playoffs...
It certainly doesn't help that he was part of the ROR trade and the 2 vets coming in being bad too.
I think he is a project who needs a lot of help development wise to turn into something or he could just become useless because he is big but he is no power forward like Wilson so I don't know if the comparison fits.
Except for his reach his size seems rather a disadvantage to him especially because he shys away from any sort of physical play.
Tage needs to play lower and learn how to use his size better especially in certain situations. Its more about technique and body positioning than his actual lack of being physical.
 

Jim Bob

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Botterill has a winning background. The guy has won 3 Stanley Cups , 3 World Junior Gold Medals , The Calder Cup and the Frozen Four.

What better candidate was there to hire last offseason ? What more qualified candidate would we have hired with Botterills credentials . Botterill is a draft and develop GM.

I keep saying how he reminds me of Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg . Look at how the Jets fans wanted Cheveldayoffs head for years and now look at how well respected he is with his success drafting and developing his players (Laine, Schifele, Ehlers, Connor , Morrisey etc.

Is it frustrating Botterill hasn’t given us the results that we wanted ? Absolutely we all wanna win like crazy . It might not show for it on the point sheet yet but it will eventually .

Look at all of Botterills solid moves

Trading for Montour, Scandella , Sheary , Skinner have all been wins

O’Reilly is questionable but we won’t know for a while the true value of that trade.

Drafting Dahlin, Middlestadt, Samuelsson, UPL, Laksonen, Davidsson, Pekar etc have been wins with limited picks

He has rebuild the Amerks in less than two years something Murray never could

Patience my friend . I wanna win as bad as anyone but firing Botterill in year two would be just silly.

Who said fire him?

I am just saying that looking at the early results and being skeptical isn't unfair, IMO.

This team was pointing up and after getting 81 and 78 points in the two previous seasons. And his teams have finished DFL with 62 points and have 69 points with 15 games left and one of the worst records in the league since the calendar turned to December.
 

OkimLom

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Look at all of Botterills solid moves

Trading for Montour, Scandella , Sheary , Skinner have all been wins
Weird you don't want to mention the one decision that impacts ALL the players, and that's the hiring of Housley who has been a horrible hire in every sense, since the day the opened camp.

O’Reilly is questionable but we won’t know for a while the true value of that trade.
Seeing as Botts is a "Draft and Develop" guy, it's kind of interesting that Botts would make such a move that would be instrumental in actually developing players seeing as he that would be so against that idea. We don't need to see the player that we draft with the pick coming back, we don't need to see Tage developing further, to see trading ROR away was a huge mistake that impacts many areas.

Drafting Dahlin, Middlestadt, Samuelsson, UPL, Laksonen, Davidsson, Pekar etc have been wins with limited picks
Cool, he drafted all these guys, can't wait to see how he develops these players. Mittelstadt is surely being developed well playing for Housley and same goes for Dahlin :sarcasm:. The others, way too soon to see say they are wins if they don't crack the Sabres roster.

He has rebuild the Amerks in less than two years something Murray never could
With the help of Murray's prospects.
 
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Yultron

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Weird you don't want to mention the one decision that impacts ALL the players, and that's the hiring of Housley who has been a horrible hire in every sense, since the day the opened camp.


Seeing as Botts is a "Draft and Develop" guy, it's kind of interesting that Botts would make such a move that would be instrumental in actually developing players seeing as he that would be so against that idea. We don't need to see the player that we draft with the pick coming back, we don't need to see Tage developing further, to see trading ROR away was a huge mistake that impacts many areas.


Cool, he drafted all these guys, can't wait to see how he develops these players. Mittelstadt is surely being developed well playing for Housley and same goes for Dahlin :sarcasm:. The others, way too soon to see say they are wins if they don't crack the Sabres roster.


With the help of Murray's prospects.


Housley is on thin ice , And let’s not forget too years ago people were Dyjng for Housley over Rick Tocchet so we got our wish and who would you of rather hired at the time ?? Boughner????? Look how that’s working out in Florida


Most people wanted O’Reilly gone due to saying he lost his love for the game and was a cancer in the dressing room


The prospects are playing phenomenal so we have to consider that a win and an A for Botterill and the scouting staff


Exactly and Botterill put the finishing touches on it
 
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OkimLom

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Housley is on thin ice , And let’s not forget too years ago people were Dyjng for Housley over Rick Tocchet so we got our wish and who would you of rather hired at the time ?? Boughner????? Look how that’s working out in Florida


Most people wanted O’Reilly gone due to saying he lost his love for the game and was a cancer in the dressing room


The prospects are playing phenomenal so we have to consider that a win and an A for Botterill and the scouting staff


Exactly and Botterill put the finishing touches on it

Anybody that looked at Housley without an emotional attachment wouldn't have hired a guy that this was his 1st professional Head Coach gig (not just NHL) for a team that needed leadership from behind the bench and setting standards. They needed someone who knew what he was doing behind the bench and had success (aka evidence) doing so. And for the record, I was and am still a huge Keefe supporter. Success behind the bench with multiple types of rosters, and what was a massive plus to me is his age. His youth with the young team and his ability to work with a variety of rosters was his biggest selling point for me. If not him, then I wanted a veteran head coach with a history of holding players accountable.

Once again, people that didn't look at ROR emotionally would see the negative drawbacks of trading him away, not just for the short term but for the long term reward to allow guys to develop, and not only that but another top 6 talent off the roster. So instead of worrying about losing Skinner and having to pay $8 million a year you had a guy in his prime already locked up for another 5 years who could slide to the 1st line wing and still be competitive, or even sign Skinner as well and have 4 or 5 of your top 6 locked up.
 
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MagnumForce2

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Anybody that looked at Housley without an emotional attachment wouldn't have hired a guy that this was his 1st professional Head Coach gig (not just NHL) for a team that needed leadership from behind the bench and setting standards. They needed someone who knew what he was doing behind the bench and had success (aka evidence) doing so. And for the record, I was and am still a huge Keefe supporter. Success behind the bench with multiple types of rosters, and what was a massive plus to me is his age. His youth with the young team and his ability to work with a variety of rosters was his biggest selling point for me. If not him, then I wanted a veteran head coach with a history of holding players accountable.

Once again, people that didn't look at ROR emotionally would see the negative drawbacks of trading him away, not just for the short term but for the long term reward to allow guys to develop, and not only that but another top 6 talent off the roster. So instead of worrying about losing Skinner and having to pay $8 million a year you had a guy in his prime already locked up for another 5 years who could slide to the 1st line wing and still be competitive, or even sign Skinner as well and have 4 or 5 of your top 6 locked up.
Getting rid of O’Reilly and trading for Skinner was an ego thing in my opinion and a way to put his stamp on the team.
 

GellMann

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Housley is on thin ice , And let’s not forget too years ago people were Dyjng for Housley over Rick Tocchet so we got our wish and who would you of rather hired at the time ?? Boughner????? Look how that’s working out in Florida


Most people wanted O’Reilly gone due to saying he lost his love for the game and was a cancer in the dressing room


The prospects are playing phenomenal so we have to consider that a win and an A for Botterill and the scouting staff


Exactly and Botterill put the finishing touches on it
Which ones? Olofsson and Pilut, who are like 23-24 years old, are having nice almost-PPG seasons in the AHL, which is good, but doesn't tell us as much as it would if they were younger than that without years of pro experience under their belts. Casey is completely overmatched as an NHL center and just spent a full season in the wrong league, and Tage is even worse, with the same situation, and it's a tough sell right now that they're better off long-term for what has happened to them over the last 5 months. Nylander is still incredibly disappointing, and there aren't many other notable prospects doing anything worth talking about. We have to remember that every organization has some degree of competency in that they have some prospects not drowning. I see no evidence that we compare favorably to franchises that rapidly and regularly pump 20 goal scorers into the NHL every year like Tampa does, when I haven't seen us get an honest-to-goodness high end NHL player outside of three picks that were utterly obvious slam dunks in the last decade.

Every single team has prospects doing well, and so many other teams have better immediate and further-back track records of actually turning those guys into NHLers.
 

Yultron

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Which ones? Olofsson and Pilut, who are like 23-24 years old, are having nice almost-PPG seasons in the AHL, which is good, but doesn't tell us as much as it would if they were younger than that without years of pro experience under their belts. Casey is completely overmatched as an NHL center and just spent a full season in the wrong league, and Tage is even worse, with the same situation, and it's a tough sell right now that they're better off long-term for what has happened to them over the last 5 months. Nylander is still incredibly disappointing, and there aren't many other notable prospects doing anything worth talking about. We have to remember that every organization has some degree of competency in that they have some prospects not drowning. I see no evidence that we compare favorably to franchises that rapidly and regularly pump 20 goal scorers into the NHL every year like Tampa does, when I haven't seen us get an honest-to-goodness high end NHL player outside of three picks that were utterly obvious slam dunks in the last decade.

Every single team has prospects doing well, and so many other teams have better immediate and further-back track records of actually turning those guys into NHLers.


And this is why I am trying to say it’s going to take Botterill more than two years before his plan comes to fruition . I wanna win like crazy but Rome wasn’t build in one day.

And building Botterills team isn’t going to happen overnight either and I’m willing to give him two more seasons and if things continue to trend in the wrong direction by all means we can fire him but I think it’s more a coaching than a management thing .

Cheveldayoff got his second coaching hire right with Maurice , I’m sure Botts can do the same but every gm only gets so many head coaches unless we are the Senators but Pegulas is no Melynk.
 

GellMann

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And this is why I am trying to say it’s going to take Botterill more than two years before his plan comes to fruition . I wanna win like crazy but Rome wasn’t build in one day.

And building Botterills team isn’t going to happen overnight either and I’m willing to give him two more seasons and if things continue to trend in the wrong direction by all means we can fire him but I think it’s more a coaching than a management thing .

Cheveldayoff got his second coaching hire right with Maurice , I’m sure Botts can do the same but every gm only gets so many head coaches unless we are the Senators but Pegulas is no Melynk.
But I'm outlining how, with respect to teams taht actually develop well and have prospects that play outstanding, we're behind the ball. You claimed it was outstanding and an A, I don't see that at all.

I don't think we're screwed and doomed on this aspect, but there are far more concerns than there is evidence that we are going to even return to average by this measure of organizational success.
 
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Yultron

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But I'm outlining how, with respect to teams taht actually develop well and have prospects that play outstanding, we're behind the ball. You claimed it was outstanding and an A, I don't see that at all.

I don't think we're screwed and doomed on this aspect, but there are far more concerns than there is evidence that we are going to even return to average by this measure of organizational success.

Oh there is 100% still work to be done I totally agree with you great point
 

Panthaz89

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I never get the hate for Mittelstadt...20+ point rookie season and isn't a disaster like some people say. The organization doesn't have 4 better centers than him so he at least should get a spot on the team because the centers suck ass. You can't have Sobotka playing big time minutes and justify that Mittelstadt "needs" to go down when there is apparently no center ready to come in and take his place without the team sucking even worse than it does now. There are plenty of wingers in the system much better than Tage so at least it makes a lot more sense to send him down.....
 

sabrebuild

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I never get the hate for Mittelstadt...20+ point rookie season and isn't a disaster like some people say. The organization doesn't have 4 better centers than him so he at least should get a spot on the team because the centers suck ass. You can't have Sobotka playing big time minutes and justify that Mittelstadt "needs" to go down when there is apparently no center ready to come in and take his place without the team sucking even worse than it does now. There are plenty of wingers in the system much better than Tage so at least it makes a lot more sense to send him down.....

Nobody hates on Mitts. They just think his development might be better served playing more minutes with more success in the ahl.

I doubt he was hurt by playing over his head this year. He still tries creating and has some good vision. He desperately needs to work on his burst and general fitness. Just hasn’t been able to create separation all year. Reinhart improved there, so should Mitts.
 
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Tatanka

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Botterill has a winning background. The guy has won 3 Stanley Cups , 3 World Junior Gold Medals , The Calder Cup and the Frozen Four.

What better candidate was there to hire last offseason ? What more qualified candidate would we have hired with Botterills credentials . Botterill is a draft and develop GM.

I keep saying how he reminds me of Kevin Cheveldayoff in Winnipeg . Look at how the Jets fans wanted Cheveldayoffs head for years and now look at how well respected he is with his success drafting and developing his players (Laine, Schifele, Ehlers, Connor , Morrisey etc.

Is it frustrating Botterill hasn’t given us the results that we wanted ? Absolutely we all wanna win like crazy . It might not show for it on the point sheet yet but it will eventually .

Look at all of Botterills solid moves

Trading for Montour, Scandella , Sheary , Skinner have all been wins

O’Reilly is questionable but we won’t know for a while the true value of that trade.

Drafting Dahlin, Middlestadt, Samuelsson, UPL, Laksonen, Davidsson, Pekar etc have been wins with limited picks

He has rebuild the Amerks in less than two years something Murray never could

Patience my friend . I wanna win as bad as anyone but firing Botterill in year two would be just silly.
Are you f***ing for real? Scandella came with the dump of Pomminville, Sheary Hunwick and Montour cost us a 1st. ROR for Berglund Thompson, Vlad should of cost him his job. josephson, nolan and keeping TT in the nhl are as stupid as any in recent memory including Ottawa trading away the first overall. He didn’t draft Dahlin it was a gift. A reward for taking a team backwards. Skinner orchestrated his own trade to the only team within geographic proximity to Toronto. Botterill is indefensible. Period. Stop trying to say his chickenshit is chicken salad.
 
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sabrebuild

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And this is why I am trying to say it’s going to take Botterill more than two years before his plan comes to fruition . I wanna win like crazy but Rome wasn’t build in one day.

And building Botterills team isn’t going to happen overnight either and I’m willing to give him two more seasons and if things continue to trend in the wrong direction by all means we can fire him but I think it’s more a coaching than a management thing .

Cheveldayoff got his second coaching hire right with Maurice , I’m sure Botts can do the same but every gm only gets so many head coaches unless we are the Senators but Pegulas is no Melynk.

What exactly is this Winnipeg model you keep referring to? I’m looking at their points history for the last 7 years and they never as tankalicious as us. They have no dead last season like us under Botterill. And only one season like this one. And they won the lottery that year to get Laine at 2 from like 12th in the standings.

Botts takes over a team that already had 3 talented first line forwards and 1 top 4 defender.

We now have 3 first line forwards and 2 top 4 defenders because of a last place finish.

For the Chevy model to hold true, we needed more success than we already have had and need to be a playoff team next year.

Tho in general models are whatever, I don’t think Winnipeg’s path seems particularly similar to the Sabres.
 

MayDayMayDay

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Nobody hates on Mitts. They just think his development might be better served playing more minutes with more success in the ahl.

I doubt he was hurt by playing over his head this year. He still tries creating and has some good vision. He desperately needs to work on his burst and general fitness. Just hasn’t been able to create separation all year. Reinhart improved there, so should Mitts.

Agreed here. I'll say that I'm very encouraged by Mitts development and his season thusfar. Despite playing against over his head quality competition for much of the season, he's had moments of class that show his potential as a catalyst and all around player in this league. He's looked about as impressive as your average twenty year old NHL rookie is going to look. Once his finishing starts to click and he learns to anticipate at NHL level speed, he's going to be an absolute nightmare for other teams to play.
 

jBuds

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Agreed here. I'll say that I'm very encouraged by Mitts development and his season thusfar. Despite playing against over his head quality competition for much of the season, he's had moments of class that show his potential as a catalyst and all around player in this league. He's looked about as impressive as your average twenty year old NHL rookie is going to look. Once his finishing starts to click and he learns to anticipate at NHL level speed, he's going to be an absolute nightmare for other teams to play.
He was much better away from the Puck early on...I’m thinking the season has taken a toll on him.

It wasn’t the skyrocketing trajectory I had hoped for, but he’s not even close to my biggest concern at this time.
 

Yultron

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Are you ****ing for real? Scandella came with the dump of Pomminville, Sheary Hunwick and Montour cost us a 1st. ROR for Berglund Thompson, Vlad should of cost him his job. josephson, nolan and keeping TT in the nhl are as stupid as any in recent memory including Ottawa trading away the first overall. He didn’t draft Dahlin it was a gift. A reward for taking a team backwards. Skinner orchestrated his own trade to the only team within geographic proximity to Toronto. Botterill is indefensible. Period. Stop trying to say his chicken**** is chicken salad.


1. We got Scandella and Sheary for a 4th and a 3rd round pick plus two very injury prone players in Marcus Foligno and Tyler Ennis and when we acquired both Scandella and Sheary they were seen as victory’s and fans were cheering . We took on Pominville and Hunwick to complete the deal because we could add on salary and Pominville for his veteran leadership.


2. In regards to Thompson let’s give him time to develop he’s a big player and big players take time to develop. Look at Tom Wilson for example and now look at how good of a player he is , Sobotka was suppose to provide scoring in the 3rd line as was Berglund so yes it’s dissapointing they didn’t pan out , and we still have a 1st Round Pick and a 2nd for O’Reilly and Thompson is only 21 so I’m not giving up on him yet. The Capitals didn’t give up on Wilson we we shouldn’t give up on Thompson .

Botterill still made Danny Waddell look bad by stealing Skinner for Pu, 2nd, 3rd and a 4th Round Pick so that trade is absolutely a win

We won the lottery yes but Dahlin still counts as Botterills

Lastly don’t tell me to defend our not defend Botterill . If I wanna defend him then I will defend and support him, if you wanna scrutinize him and say he is indefensible then you are absolutely welcome to do that because we are all entitled too our opinions
 
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