Post-Game Talk (GBU): Blackhawk Downed

[Yultron]

What exactly is this Winnipeg model you keep referring to? I’m looking at their points history for the last 7 years and they never as tankalicious as us. They have no dead last season like us under Botterill. And only one season like this one. And they won the lottery that year to get Laine at 2 from like 12th in the standings.

Botts takes over a team that already had 3 talented first line forwards and 1 top 4 defender.

We now have 3 first line forwards and 2 top 4 defenders because of a last place finish.

For the Chevy model to hold true, we needed more success than we already have had and need to be a playoff team next year.

Tho in general models are whatever, I don’t think Winnipeg’s path seems particularly similar to the Sabres.

When I say Winnipeg Model they aren’t as tankious as us yes but they are a draft and develop team and Cheveldayoff developed his players and didn’t recall them until they were ready and True North Sports and Entertainment gave him the patience and persistence to see his plan through. For years Jets fans were calling for Chevys head much like we are with Botterill but he was given time to see his plan through and now look at how the Jets are being rewarded. It took 7 years yes but now they are a Western Conference powerhouse and will be contending for 10+ years . Also Cheveldayoff has to rebuild from the ground up, he didn’t have the talented young players Botterill has gotten to work with .

This is the approach Botterill is going to take is too draft and develop and bring this team forward with the kids . He has traded picks yes but he has also drafted exceptionally well with the later round picks (Laksonen, Pekar , Bryson, Weissbauch etc. And we still have 8 picks this year plus 2 1st round picks

 

[debaser66]

1. We got Scandella and Sheary for a 4th and a 3rd round pick plus two very injury prone players in Marcus Foligno and Tyler Ennis and when we acquired both Scandella and Sheary they were seen as victory’s and fans were cheering . We took on Pominville and Hunwick to complete the deal because we could add on salary and Pominville for his veteran leadership.


2. In regards to Thompson let’s give him time to develop he’s a big player and big players take time to develop. Look at Tom Wilson for example and now look at how good of a player he is , Sobotka was suppose to provide scoring in the 3rd line as was Berglund so yes it’s dissapointing they didn’t pan out , and we still have a 1st Round Pick and a 2nd for O’Reilly and Thompson is only 21 so I’m not giving up on him yet. The Capitals didn’t give up on Wilson we we shouldn’t give up on Thompson .

Botterill still made Danny Waddell look bad by stealing Skinner for Pu, 2nd, 3rd and a 4th Round Pick so that trade is absolutely a win

We won the lottery yes but Dahlin still counts as Botterills

Lastly don’t tell me to defend our not defend Botterill . If I wanna defend him then I will defend and support him, if you wanna scrutinize him and say he is indefensible then you are absolutely welcome to do that because we are all entitled too our opinions

Can we stop to use the big player excuse for Thompson and not compare him to Wilson who is a Powerforward.
Not every big player needs longer to develop but Thompson is one of them.

 

[sabrebuild]

Agreed here. I'll say that I'm very encouraged by Mitts development and his season thusfar. Despite playing against over his head quality competition for much of the season, he's had moments of class that show his potential as a catalyst and all around player in this league. He's looked about as impressive as your average twenty year old NHL rookie is going to look. Once his finishing starts to click and he learns to anticipate at NHL level speed, he's going to be an absolute nightmare for other teams to play.

Yup. He should be a quality player. I’m hopeful for a consistent 50-60 point two way center. His defensive game has been better than I expected.

 

[sabrebuild]

When I say Winnipeg Model they aren’t as tankious as us yes but they are a draft and develop team and Cheveldayoff developed his players and didn’t recall them until they were ready and True North Sports and Entertainment gave him the patience and persistence to see his plan through. For years Jets fans were calling for Chevys head much like we are with Botterill but he was given time to see his plan through and now look at how the Jets are being rewarded. It took 7 years yes but now they are a Western Conference powerhouse and will be contending for 10+ years . Also Cheveldayoff has to rebuild from the ground up, he didn’t have the talented young players Botterill has gotten to work with .

This is the approach Botterill is going to take is too draft and develop and bring this team forward with the kids . He has traded picks yes but he has also drafted exceptionally well with the later round picks (Laksonen, Pekar , Bryson, Weissbauch etc. And we still have 8 picks this year plus 2 1st round picks

It’s awfully confident to call something exceptional without a single one of those players even close to the nhl.

That team was also far more successful before the last three years than the Sabres have ever been.

You keep saying Botts is a draft and develop gm. That doesn’t mean anything. All gms draft, develop, trade and sign players. Those are just tools.

He has used them all. All I’m really hearing is nothing matters for 5ish years? I’m guessing on the number. Perhaps you would be done with no improvement after 3-4 years.

But guess what, Winnipeg didn’t waste a superstar players prime for two years already. Nor a superstar defenders elc year.

The idea that Botts can basically burn at least two years of Jack as an expected part of the plan is incredible.

I mean let’s say this plan succeeds in two years and we are finally a playoff team. Am I supposed to be happy with the plan that intentionally didn’t get Jack to the playoffs until he was 24-25?

Kill me now.

 

[dotcommunism]

I don't really think there's any good excuse for this team to choose to punt another season. I also don't think there was any good excuse for them to punt this season (or, honestly, last season although it did end up with them getting Dahlin).

 

[Yultron]

Can we stop to use the big player excuse for Thompson and not compare him to Wilson who is a Powerforward.
Not every big player needs longer to develop but Thompson is one of them.

The kid is 21 and I’m not giving up on him and Tom Wilson didn’t have his first productive season till his age 24 season which is in 3 years from now so no I can and will continue to support him

 

[Yultron]

It’s awfully confident to call something exceptional without a single one of those players even close to the nhl.

That team was also far more successful before the last three years than the Sabres have ever been.

You keep saying Botts is a draft and develop gm. That doesn’t mean anything. All gms draft, develop, trade and sign players. Those are just tools.

He has used them all. All I’m really hearing is nothing matters for 5ish years? I’m guessing on the number. Perhaps you would be done with no improvement after 3-4 years.

But guess what, Winnipeg didn’t waste a superstar players prime for two years already. Nor a superstar defenders elc year.

The idea that Botts can basically burn at least two years of Jack as an expected part of the plan is incredible.

I mean let’s say this plan succeeds in two years and we are finally a playoff team. Am I supposed to be happy with the plan that intentionally didn’t get Jack to the playoffs until he was 24-25?

Kill me now.

None of us our happy it’s taking this long as it’s now been 8 years and we aren’t in the playoffs. We as fans shouldn’t be happy and should be absolutely livid which I am every day and why I am rooting for another tank even tho it’s not even a tank it’s a team playing hard but losing because we all know We are going nowhere with Phil Housley so at this point I would love the potential to draft a player like Turcotte, Boldy or Zegras

It’s the only hope we have but to answer your question yes it’s frustrating we are wasting good years of Eichels prime but I expect things starting next year will look a lot brighter

 

[sabremike]

None of us our happy it’s taking this long as it’s now been 8 years and we aren’t in the playoffs. We as fans shouldn’t be happy and should be absolutely livid which I am every day and why I am rooting for another tank even tho it’s not even a tank it’s a team playing hard but losing because we all know We are going nowhere with Phil Housley so at this point I would love the potential to draft a player like Turcotte, Boldy or Zegras

It’s the only hope we have but to answer your question yes it’s frustrating we are wasting good years of Eichels prime but I expect things starting next year will look a lot brighter

The worst coach in hockey and a GM who does nothing but step on rakes will still be here so why the hell should I expect next season to be ANY different?

 

[Yultron]

The worst coach in hockey and a GM who does nothing but step on rakes will still be here so why the hell should I expect next season to be ANY different?

Your trying too tell me Botterill is worse than Pierre Dorion in Ottawa ??????

A team that is dead last in the NHL and is giving Colorado a gift in Jack Hughes

And why should things look brighter ? All the young guys are another year older and more established , a coaching change is looking more and more likely , a full offseason for reinforcements , another top 10 pick . There’s lots of reasons to be opptomistic

 

[Chainshot]

The kid is 21 and I’m not giving up on him and Tom Wilson didn’t have his first productive season till his age 24 season which is in 3 years from now so no I can and will continue to support him

Stylistically they have nothing similar to their respective games. Thompson is a tall finesse player.

 

[sabrebuild]

None of us our happy it’s taking this long as it’s now been 8 years and we aren’t in the playoffs. We as fans shouldn’t be happy and should be absolutely livid which I am every day and why I am rooting for another tank even tho it’s not even a tank it’s a team playing hard but losing because we all know We are going nowhere with Phil Housley so at this point I would love the potential to draft a player like Turcotte, Boldy or Zegras

It’s the only hope we have but to answer your question yes it’s frustrating we are wasting good years of Eichels prime but I expect things starting next year will look a lot brighter

I guess what I’m saying is, I agree with some our young guys improving naturally.

I just don’t see any evidence that says that Botts plans to do anything competent. What we have seen is a lot of bad moves.

If waiting it out is the plan, cool. But let’s get rid of Housley and Botts and try again to find competency.

 

[sabrebuild]

Your trying too tell me Botterill is worse than Pierre Dorion in Ottawa ??????

A team that is dead last in the NHL and is giving Colorado a gift in Jack Hughes

And why should things look brighter ? All the young guys are another year older and more established , a coaching change is looking more and more likely , a full offseason for reinforcements , another top 10 pick . There’s lots of reasons to be opptomistic

Btw I’m not saying your way off with seeing an eventual positive future. Dahlin, Eichel and Reinhart are great pieces.

I just see limited evidence that Botts knows who and how to surround those guys with talent.

 

[Yultron]

Btw I’m not saying your way off with seeing an eventual positive future. Dahlin, Eichel and Reinhart are great pieces.

I just see limited evidence that Botts knows who and how to surround those guys with talent.

Solid point I will agree with you on that

 

[Yultron]

I guess what I’m saying is, I agree with some our young guys improving naturally.

I just don’t see any evidence that says that Botts plans to do anything competent. What we have seen is a lot of bad moves.

If waiting it out is the plan, cool. But let’s get rid of Housley and Botts and try again to find competency.

Yes Housley absolutely needs to go especially watching today’s game where we have 7 shots . 7 shots in two periods when the Avs just lost Landeskog for the season .

Our team is lost under Housley and I am all aboard the fire him route and watch this team free fall for a better draft pick

 

[OkimLom]

When I say Winnipeg Model they aren’t as tankious as us yes but they are a draft and develop team and Cheveldayoff developed his players and didn’t recall them until they were ready and True North Sports and Entertainment gave him the patience and persistence to see his plan through. For years Jets fans were calling for Chevys head much like we are with Botterill but he was given time to see his plan through and now look at how the Jets are being rewarded. It took 7 years yes but now they are a Western Conference powerhouse and will be contending for 10+ years . Also Cheveldayoff has to rebuild from the ground up, he didn’t have the talented young players Botterill has gotten to work with .

This is the approach Botterill is going to take is too draft and develop and bring this team forward with the kids . He has traded picks yes but he has also drafted exceptionally well with the later round picks (Laksonen, Pekar , Bryson, Weissbauch etc. And we still have 8 picks this year plus 2 1st round picks

Chevy literally took over another franchise worth of guys. Guys like Wheeler and Little were already in the franchise, Winnipeg had others for a while on their roster from the Atlanta days.

I actually love Chevy as a GM, because he has a vision for a team(Funny enough it’s the same vision that Murray had until he hired Bylsma and had to change the direction of the team because Bylsma couldn’t coach anything but a dump and chase team).It’s apparent throughout their lineup. He’s made decisions for his roster that were smart, but they have been very direct and with a purpose. That’s what makes an effective GM. I have yet to see anything the resembles a vision of a team from Botts.

Chevy is relying a mixture of players traded for and his 1st rounders.

11/44 of the guys he drafted have played significant time (100 games) in 6 of those 1st rounders and one being a goaltender.

 

[Yultron]

Chevy literally took over another franchise worth of guys. Guys like Wheeler and Little were already in the franchise, Winnipeg had others for a while on their roster from the Atlanta days.

I actually love Chevy as a GM, because he has a vision for a team(Funny enough it’s the same vision that Murray had until he hired Bylsma and had to change the direction of the team because Bylsma couldn’t coach anything but a dump and chase team).It’s apparent throughout their lineup. He’s made decisions for his roster that were smart, but they have been very direct and with a purpose. That’s what makes an effective GM. I have yet to see anything the resembles a vision of a team from Botts.

Chevy is relying a mixture of players traded for and his 1st rounders.

11/44 of the guys he drafted have played significant time (100 games) in 6 of those 1st rounders and one being a goaltender.

Botterill also inherited a team full of good players Eichel , Reinhart , Risolanin etc and I am very confident his vision will work long term

 

[OkimLom]

Botterill also inherited a team full of good players Eichel , Reinhart , Risolanin etc and I am very confident his vision will work long term

He got rid of the 2nd best/most talented player in the offseason. He played hardball with the 3rd best player. He is force developing his 1st pick on a team coached by Phil Housley.

What type of team is Jason building, that we should be patient for?

 

[Yultron]

He got rid of the 2nd best/most talented player in the offseason. He played hardball with the 3rd best player. He is force developing his 1st pick on a team coached by Phil Housley.

What type of team is Jason building, that we should be patient for?

Giving him time to implement his vision for this team and we know that’s a fast pace puck possession . And half the roster is still Murray’s so we need to give Botterill time to build his own team before we can judge him properly because we still have a lot of dead weight (Murray’s players on this team )

 

[Chainshot]

Giving him time to implement his vision for this team and we know that’s a fast pace puck possession . And half the roster is still Murray’s so we need to give Botterill time to build his own team before we can judge him properly because we still have a lot of dead weight (Murray’s players on this team )

That sort of conveniently absorbs Jason of the deadweight he put on this roster, which is a larger portion of the overall number of players than anyone else’s.

 

[Yultron]

That sort of conveniently absorbs Jason of the deadweight he put on this roster, which is a larger portion of the overall number of players than anyone else’s.

Botterill hasn’t been given much to work with so yes he has taken in a lot of contracts to acquire players he wanted so I totally understand where you are coming from but he still inherited a team that was largely Murray’s and he had a huge mess to clean up as a result so if we are talking about the Nolan’s , Josefsons , Sobotka’s etc of the world it was to be used as stop gap players to give our younger guys a chance to develop and once the Nylanders, Olofssons and Asplundes of the worlds are here we will see the Sobotkas , Scandellas , Okposo’s of the world off of this roster

 

[OkimLom]

Giving him time to implement his vision for this team and we know that’s a fast pace puck possession . And half the roster is still Murray’s so we need to give Botterill time to build his own team before we can judge him properly because we still have a lot of dead weight (Murray’s players on this team )

And where is the evidence that is the team we are building? Because Skinner, his first “big” piece he acquired, is anything but a positive puck possession player, Tage Thompson is again a terrible puck possession player with slow decision making (something that is key in puck possession teams), I can’t imagine how bad he will look when tasked to think at a faster pace. Mittelstadt, his first pick, is not a solid puck possession player. Dahlin is just an elite player, you pick him no matter the type of team you’re trying to build.

Even if we’re waiting for prospects to develop, you still want to start the process of building a puck possession at his stage of his building. So far it has been an absolute failure and this is because of the coaching he continues to employ, something Botts needs to be held accountable for.

We all want Botts to do well and be the answer. But there’s nothing that he has done with his decisions that shows me personally that he’s got a long term plan that will be successful.

 

[Yultron]

And where is the evidence that is the team we are building? Because Skinner, his first “big” piece he acquired, is anything but a positive puck possession player, Tage Thompson is again a terrible puck possession player with slow decision making (something that is key in puck possession teams), I can’t imagine how bad he will look when tasked to think at a faster pace. Mittelstadt, his first pick, is not a solid puck possession player. Dahlin is just an elite player, you pick him no matter the type of team you’re trying to build.

Even if we’re waiting for prospects to develop, you still want to start the process of building a puck possession at his stage of his building. So far it has been an absolute failure and this is because of the coaching he continues to employ, something Botts needs to be held accountable for.

We all want Botts to do well and be the answer. But there’s nothing that he has done with his decisions that shows me personally that he’s got a long term plan that will be successful.

Let Thompson develop , he has only had two drafts and has drafted some very good players Dahlin , Middlestadt, UPL, Laksonen , Davidsson etc, signed Pilut etc so for that I am willing to give this guy time to build a team

 

[DolanPlsGoSabres]

Let Thompson develop , he has only had two drafts and has drafted some very good players Dahlin , Middlestadt, UPL, Laksonen , Davidsson etc, signed Pilut etc so for that I am willing to give this guy time to build a team

How many of the 2017 draft class is from Botterill's scouting and draft plan? If anything it could be a similar board to what Murray left, given the 'long development time' thing that Murray liked.

 

[OkimLom]

Let Thompson develop , he has only had two drafts and has drafted some very good players Dahlin , Middlestadt, UPL, Laksonen , Davidsson etc, signed Pilut etc so for that I am willing to give this guy time to build a team

Tell the guy who made the decision not to send him to the AHL to develop.

Murray also drafted Eichel, Reinhart, Nylander, Borgen, Asplund, signed CJ Smith, all good players, should he have been kept? I would assume you don’t think so because of the decisions he made outside drafting guys.

 

[Panthaz89]

the funny part is that Murray was actually a decent GM but Sabres fans like to discredit him due to some trades and they usually put him down for the good trades like the O'Reily trade when it was Fasching, Gorges and random bad contracts that were bad. Kane trade was rather even and Bogosian imo when healthy has put in effort and has been pretty good for most of the season. Trading O'Reily is Edmonton Oilers GM level bad.....and the longer we continue to deal with Botterill who isn't afraid to trade core players for garbage than i'm not sure what people are actually expecting. Housley is even worse than Dan because at least our PP unit was much better under him and the team didn't looks so clueless on what to do in their own zone.