Binghamton to the ECHL?

[Ratitude]

After 5 seasons in the LNAH, there was no lower tier in North American "pro hockey" than the FPHL to provide a fade-to-black exit from his long & storied career.

Hey some people stay in bed enjoying their dreams. FHL guys stay in the game actually chasing their dreams lol. There is a market for it, they survived this long and found a few markets that help them make it work.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I mean what credible leagues has teams owned by the same person playing each other?

Let's talk about the NHL from the 1930s to the 1960s.

 

[GrGriffins]

Anybody in Binghamton that goes to the games, especially at the beginning of the season, would happen to have an extra 21-22 Black Bears magnet schedule to spare? The team was suppose to send me one and I sent an SASE to them, but they never replied back. Even email the owner and no reply back. Let me know. Thanks.

 

[bleedblue94]

Let's talk about the NHL from the 1930s to the 1960s.

Sure, and then let's talk about why things are different today than they were 60-90 years ago...

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sure, and then let's talk about why things are different today than they were 60-90 years ago...

Not saying it's the same, but it's noteworthy that at one point all 4 American franchises in the NHL were owned at least in part by the Norrises. And that the Norrises owned both the Wings and Hawks for decades, while one thrived and the other withered.

Also, at one point the NY Americans and Pittsburgh Pirates were owned by a bootleg gangster, using a paper owner in Pittsburgh to hide the arrangement. Oddly, the Pirates traded all their talent to NY before they were sold off.

Closer to home, Henry Brabham owned 4 out of the 5 ECHL franchises during its founding season. He didn't whittle back down to only 1 team until several years later.

The idea that similar things could happen in the modern day ECHL really isn't far fetched at all. Does it make the league less credible? Sure. Does anyone really care, for the purpose of enjoying themselves at a game? The historical record says no.

 

[bleedblue94]

Not saying it's the same, but it's noteworthy that at one point all 4 American franchises in the NHL were owned at least in part by the Norrises. And that the Norrises owned both the Wings and Hawks for decades, while one thrived and the other withered.

Also, at one point the NY Americans and Pittsburgh Pirates were owned by a bootleg gangster, using a paper owner in Pittsburgh to hide the arrangement. Oddly, the Pirates traded all their talent to NY before they were sold off.

Closer to home, Henry Brabham owned 4 out of the 5 ECHL franchises during its founding season. He didn't whittle back down to only 1 team until several years later.

The idea that similar things could happen in the modern day ECHL really isn't far fetched at all. Does it make the league less credible? Sure. Does anyone really care, for the purpose of enjoying themselves at a game? The historical record says no.

Politely I can tell you that such a situation to that extreme would not happen in the current day ECHL. I am vetted and can comfortably say that. The league is aware of its history.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Politely I can tell you that such a situation to that extreme would not happen in the current day ECHL. I am vetted and can comfortably say that. The league is aware of its history.

Fair enough.

 

[bleedblue94]

Fair enough.

I guess one of the things I look at is that people may be able to try to compare the old echl to the fed of today, the humble roots and the struggle to get somewhere with it and such, but the echl of today is closer to the ahl than it is to the fed. In some ways the echl of today is the ahl of the past.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The idea that similar things could happen in the modern day ECHL really isn't far fetched at all. Does it make the league less credible? Sure. Does anyone really care, for the purpose of enjoying themselves at a game? The historical record says no.

When Rick Adams had three memberships (Texas, Johnstown, and Long Beach), those three teams were not allowed to make player transactions with each other. A similar prohibition was in place when the Steven Brothers owned several teams that came in from the carcass of the WPHL d/b/a the Central Hockey League.

The ECHL, when it started, had some shenanigans, sure, but nothing even close to the bullshit that Don the Con, Gun Slingin' Barry and Sarge have pulled in the FHL, largely at the expense of players and staff.

 

[royals119]

When Rick Adams had three memberships (Texas, Johnstown, and Long Beach), those three teams were not allowed to make player transactions with each other. A similar prohibition was in place when the Steven Brothers owned several teams that came in from the carcass of the WPHL d/b/a the Central Hockey League.

The ECHL, when it started, had some shenanigans, sure, but nothing even close to the bullshit that Don the Con, Gun Slingin' Barry and Sarge have pulled in the FHL, largely at the expense of players and staff.

The Royals and Reign were under the same restriction for a couple years when the Kings were still 50% owners of the Royals and 100% for the Reign. I'm sure that applies to the current owner of Newfoundland, Trois Rivieres, and Iowa.

 

[SemireliableSource]

I believe Rapid City and Greenville have the same restriction.

 

[Atlantian]

The Royals and Reign were under the same restriction for a couple years when the Kings were still 50% owners of the Royals and 100% for the Reign. I'm sure that applies to the current owner of Newfoundland, Trois Rivieres, and Iowa.

I believe Rapid City and Greenville have the same restriction.

Both correct.

 

[Jumptheshark]

If anyone believes the Black Bears are actually drawing 3k+ than I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya...

View attachment 497219

Thought that photo was taken during the warm up

 

[bleedblue94]

Thought that photo was taken during the warm up

Haha sure looks like it.

 

[Ody]

Do you think the fans lack of motivation for this new team is because of the quality of the league. Do you gentlemen think the ECHL would draw a better crowd ?

To take a stab at your second question, we can probably assume attendance would be somewhere between the UHL and AHL ranges, and well above FPHL.

In 38 AHL seasons, Binghamton averaged about 3,800, with the Rangers and Senators affiliations being around 4,000. From being an STH for many of these years, these numbers appear to match the actual crowds.

The Icemen claimed 2,900 over their five years. I only went to two games, both in their first season, and from what I saw then, that number may be a bit inflated. But mid 2’s is probably not too much of a stretch.

The FPHL is claiming a similar average so far this season, but it looks like there is quite a bit more padding based on what we are seeing. But let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and perhaps assume that a non-pandemic average would settle in the high 1,000’s if they are actually getting 1,200 right now.

So, given this, my best guess is that the ECHL would draw somewhere in the low to mid-3,000’s, with some variations based on team performance. Looking at the current league attendances, they would rank in the low teens.

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

To take a stab at your second question, we can probably assume attendance would be somewhere between the UHL and AHL ranges, and well above FPHL.

In 38 AHL seasons, Binghamton averaged about 3,800, with the Rangers and Senators affiliations being around 4,000. From being an STH for many of these years, these numbers appear to match the actual crowds.

The Icemen claimed 2,900 over their five years. I only went to two games, both in their first season, and from what I saw then, that number may be a bit inflated. But mid 2’s is probably not too much of a stretch.

The FPHL is claiming a similar average so far this season, but it looks like there is quite a bit more padding based on what we are seeing. But let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and perhaps assume that a non-pandemic average would settle in the high 1,000’s if they are actually getting 1,200 right now.

So, given this, my best guess is that the ECHL would draw somewhere in the low to mid-3,000’s, with some variations based on team performance. Looking at the current league attendances, they would rank in the low teens.

Is Binghamton's goal still a ECHL tenant. Or are they planning on sticking with Fed for now ?

 

[Atlantian]

Is Binghamton's goal still a ECHL tenant. Or are they planning on sticking with Fed for now ?

It looks like they are in the Fed for next season as well

 

[Ody]

Is Binghamton's goal still a ECHL tenant. Or are they planning on sticking with Fed for now ?

One might think ECHL would be the goal here, especially for longer-term stability that the AHL simply can no longer offer. When you look at Adirondack, Worcester, or Portland, the question really becomes “why not?” FPHL was very clearly being touted as a one season solution last year, and I can’t see anyone having changed their minds since then.

The fan base probably wants to get back to some legitimacy in the hockey world, and now seems to be voting against the current situation with their wallets. The dedicated Black Bears fans will support any level of hockey, so I don’t think even they would be opposed to an upgrade.

The county is probably fine for now as long as someone is paying rent but I assume that in the longer term, they’re not going to want to spend tens of millions for the arena overhaul for 1,500 average attendance.

The Fed and owners probably want to do their best to torpedo any effort to fix the situation, for obvious reasons.

The unknown here is Tom Mitchell and his investors. They have been quiet since getting backstabbed by the New Jersey Devils. I would start to worry, though, if there is any indication that they are going to throw in the towel.

 

[mmazz22]

The goal remains higher level for next season despite the Black Bears selling tickets for next season.
Next season the concession deal is up for bid which makes this market attractive.
The Fed is not popular here at all. You got your group who will watch anything. But the rest is staying away.
I sponsored the team and got 4 seasons , I haven’t been in weeks.
They are padding the numbers big time.
For instance Thursday , they have roughly 900-1000 seasons , announced crowd of 2100 there is no way they had a walk up of 1000 on a Thursday night in Bing NY in January.
I watched a little on you tube and it looked like 800 actual butts in seats.
Also they are pissing off a lot of people with these $8 tickets many are paying $17 a ticket for seasons.
The theory is hell I’ll go buy an $8 ticket and sit wherever since there is 3 k empty seats a game.

 

[Ody]

It looks like they are in the Fed for next season as well

Can you share any news on this?

There has been, as far as I know, no official word on specific plans for next season.

 

[mmazz22]

Can you share any news on this?

There has been, as far as I know, no official word on specific plans for next season.

they are selling seasons for next year is what people are going off of

 

[Ody]

they are selling seasons for next year is what people are going off of

Okay, thanks for the info. My guess is they would be selling them whether if not they were planning to be around, just in case.

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

Can you share any news on this?

There has been, as far as I know, no official word on specific plans for next season.

We will just have to wait for the ECHL's midseason board of governors meeting that usually happens in February.

 

[Ody]

We will just have to wait for the ECHL's midseason board of governors meeting that usually happens in February.

We might have to wait until spring meetings, in deference to the Black Bears need to sell tickets for the remainder of this season. I think the concern is that an early announcement of a new team would chill ticket sales for them even further.

 

[JMCx4]

... Also they are pissing off a lot of people with these $8 tickets many are paying $17 a ticket for seasons.
The theory is hell I’ll go buy an $8 ticket and sit wherever since there is 3 k empty seats a game.

Same disaster scenario that alienated the original STH investors for the one-n-done St. Charles Chill in the old CHL near me. Sucker the local fans desperate for hockey into overpaying to secure their favorite seats for every game, then undercut the value of their investment & disrespect their emotional commitment by discounting single game tix when attendance fails to meet the team management's delusional expectations. A business plan guaranteed to fail.