Better player: Cale Makar or Sam Girard?

[Northern Avs Fan]

For those looking to continue discussion the topic has its own thread here. So we can talk about Byram in his own thread haha

 

[Slurpeelover27]

Points = Flashy


So much of a players point production is about opportunity and who you play with.

Chicken or egg?

Maybe players who produce are likely given the opportunities to play with other players who will also produce, no? You gonna play Mackinnon with Nieto and Calvert?

 

[AvsFan29]

Byram

 

[Spirits]

For those looking to continue discussion the topic has its own thread here. So we can talk about Byram in his own thread haha

Thanks for that. Byram thread went full derail.

 

[Chiarelli]

Please add Barrie and Zadorov to the poll

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Chicken or egg?

Maybe players who produce are likely given the opportunities to play with other players who will also produce, no? You gonna play Mackinnon with Nieto and Calvert?

You're not wrong.


The point being made to an extent here was that if Makar wasn't on the Avs and instead Girard was getting those minutes and opportunities, his production would be higher.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Makar has more dynamic talent, Girard is the better overall player right now.

Rehashing some stuff from the other thread: I don’t buy into labels. The Avs D certainly doesn’t operate in #1, #2, top pair, etc. there’s way too much pair switching to really buy into that. I think there’s a clear top 4 and then the bottom pair.

As mentioned Girard led Avs at 5v5 TOI, to me that is the greatest indication of his role. Bednar has also praised his ability to play tough minutes against top competition. Now does that mean he’d be that guy on every team, no.

Girard was 33rd in 5v5 TOI/GP in the league and 31st in points. One fewer than Heiskanen, tied with Sergachev. In fact Girard had the same production in the playoffs as Sergachev in 10 fewer games. So top 30 in the league is pretty fair but I don’t extrapolate that to mean he’s on every team’s top pair. Every team is different in how they construct and use their pairs.

I’m not sure Makar plays the most at 5v5 moving forward either, if he’s getting the bulk of the pp minutes then they still might ease back a minute or so at 5v5 but I do expect he will get relied upon more as well.

It took a while for some folks to buy into Makar’s talent so I’m not surprised to see the skepticism on Byram.

 

[Foppa2118]

Makar has more dynamic talent, Girard is the better overall player right now.

Rehashing some stuff from the other thread: I don’t buy into labels. The Avs D certainly doesn’t operate in #1, #2, top pair, etc. there’s way too much pair switching to really buy into that. I think there’s a clear top 4 and then the bottom pair.

The Avs rotate their pairs a lot more than other teams, but they also often go back to the same top pair at the ends of periods, and the ends of games, unless they are trying to make a comeback.

Last year that was G-EJ. That's why they ended up averaging more ice time than guys like Graves and Makar. Next year I think that go to pairing will be Makar's pairing because he's improved so quickly defensively.

In fact, as smart as Girard is defensively, I would say Makar was already at or above his level by the end of last season. If G was bigger this wouldn't be the case because his defensive instincts and stick are so good, but he's still very limited in what he can do to defend in front of the net, in the corners, and in one on one battles if the forward gets good body position on him.

He's just really good at trying to avoid those situations, and it's the reason they went with Girard-EJ instead of Girard-Makar full time. So G could have a bigger reliable defensive partner to take on those duties in front of the net and in the corners.

Makar won't need that kind of help going forward, because he's bigger and stronger, and has good defensive instincts himself.

 

[the_fan]

I like Girard but its Makar without a doubt

 

[avsfan9]

I like Girard but its Makar without a doubt

Ain’t it great we have both. Mack’s and Girard deals will give this team a lot of stability in the next couple of years. We will be the lightning of the west

 

[the_fan]

Ain’t it great we have both. Mack’s and Girard deals will give this team a lot of stability in the next couple of years. We will be the lightning of the west

Indeed

 

[FreshFitted67]

Oh man, when you said you made a poll on the main boards @Northern Avs Fan i thought you meant the HF NHL boards, and I thought the topic was if G was a top 32D. I didn’t even know this thread was a thing until just now. I love G, but the answer to this poll is Makar, and you can make an argument for G (a difficult one) but it’s really not even close.

can we make a new poll about if G is a top 32D?

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I really think too much stock is put into 5v5 minutes.

Watching the last 40-50 games of the regular season and the playoffs I don’t know how you can say Girard is better.

At the start of the year the gap between the two on the defensive side was huge. Girard being way ahead, but as the season went along and the postseason unfolded, Makar closed the gap considerably. To the point now, where I’d say they are quite close.

Offensively I don’t think they’re even on the same level. Even if Girard had PP1 time he wouldn’t out produce Makar. It’s been alluded to before, but the thing that separates Makar from a lot of other defenceman is that he can finish plays. That can be with the shot, or the deke to set up the pass. That’s huge and extraordinarily rare in a defenceman.

Both enormous parts of the team, I just think Makar is better.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Girard is great but Makar is on a completely different level.

Rookie season playing at a 70 point pace with solid defense + turning it up a notch in the playoffs.

Very few rookie Dmen in NHL history have been able to match that.

 

[crue7]

We're just absolutely spoiled, and I f***ing love it. So many years with trash defense that it's even hard to bring up without feeling physically ill.

Shoutout to all us fans who have put up with this franchise during its darkest years. Especially our European posters!

 

[tigervixxxen]

I really think too much stock is put into 5v5 minutes.

Watching the last 40-50 games of the regular season and the playoffs I don’t know how you can say Girard is better.

At the start of the year the gap between the two on the defensive side was huge. Girard being way ahead, but as the season went along and the postseason unfolded, Makar closed the gap considerably. To the point now, where I’d say they are quite close.

Offensively I don’t think they’re even on the same level. Even if Girard had PP1 time he wouldn’t out produce Makar. It’s been alluded to before, but the thing that separates Makar from a lot of other defenceman is that he can finish plays. That can be with the shot, or the deke to set up the pass. That’s huge and extraordinarily rare in a defenceman.

Both enormous parts of the team, I just think Makar is better.

Girard still played 1:28 more than anyone at 5v5 in the playoffs. It’s not a stat to mirage anything, he plays against top competition.

Look, I’m a huge fan of Makar so if the argument is semantics on what better or more impactful means then I’m not arguing against Makar. It’s more that Girard is under appreciated, not that fans don’t find him a positive part of the team but it’s the why and what makes that so important. Makar might be the most unique defenseman in hockey, if the Avs ever figure out how to leverage that creatively then there’s no ceiling for him.

 

[Moosehead1]

Look Girard is damn good, maybe even great. But Makar is Elite. No disrespect to either.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Girard still played 1:28 more than anyone at 5v5 in the playoffs. It’s not a stat to mirage anything, he plays against top competition.

Look, I’m a huge fan of Makar so if the argument is semantics on what better or more impactful means then I’m not arguing against Makar. It’s more that Girard is under appreciated, not that fans don’t find him a positive part of the team but it’s the why and what makes that so important. Makar might be the most unique defenseman in hockey, if the Avs ever figure out how to leverage that creatively then there’s no ceiling for him.

I think I can still appreciate Girard, and believe that Makar is better at the same time. I think Girard is top-31 defenceman in hockey.

I’m not sure what you mean by leverage his creativity, but Makar is already one of the best point producing defenceman in the game.

 

[Foppa2118]

Girard still played 1:28 more than anyone at 5v5 in the playoffs. It’s not a stat to mirage anything, he plays against top competition.

Look, I’m a huge fan of Makar so if the argument is semantics on what better or more impactful means then I’m not arguing against Makar. It’s more that Girard is under appreciated, not that fans don’t find him a positive part of the team but it’s the why and what makes that so important. Makar might be the most unique defenseman in hockey, if the Avs ever figure out how to leverage that creatively then there’s no ceiling for him.

I don't know if I'd say Girard is under appreciated. I think he's just talked about less than he used to be.

That's only natural though since they added perhaps a generational defender in Makar after Girard's sophomore year.

That's going to take away the shine from anyone. It's like Av fans not talking about Foote as much after they added Bourque and Blake.

 

[Spirits]

We're just absolutely spoiled, and I f***ing love it. So many years with trash defense that it's even hard to bring up without feeling physically ill.

Shoutout to all us fans who have put up with this franchise during its darkest years. Especially our European posters!

And we have people that want to unload Byram for depth lol.

 

[Metallo]

I was honestly floored that this was even a poll. Sam is nice and steady but it’s just a no contest when he’s up against a phenom like Makar.

Glad to have both guys.

 

[flyfysher]

I remember when we traded for Girard. What a huge difference to our long suffering D that was! Now we have Makar too. Threads like this tell you it’s a great time to be an Avs fan. Other teams are suffering through a flat cap. Instead, Sakic takes advantage to snag Toews, a top 4D with two second round picks. Really makes one appreciate Sakic for his handling of Rantanen’s contract now given that most everyone thought the cap would rise. Does anyone remember how desperate the team was for top 4D during JB’s first year? Now the Avs are flush with D-men and touted prospects. I don’t think it’s all on Sakic but really the entire management including Sakic, MacFarland, JB and Hepple deserve a lot of credit.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I think I can still appreciate Girard, and believe that Makar is better at the same time. I think Girard is top-31 defenceman in hockey.

I’m not sure what you mean by leverage his creativity, but Makar is already one of the best point producing defenceman in the game.

Right and like I said there’s no ceiling, production could go even higher. The staff needs to find some more creativity to get the most out their talent, especially on the power play. Makar in the OZone is like an elite forward, they need to leverage that advantage at their disposal.

I don't know if I'd say Girard is under appreciated. I think he's just talked about less than he used to be.

That's only natural though since they added perhaps a generational defender in Makar after Girard's sophomore year.

That's going to take away the shine from anyone. It's like Av fans not talking about Foote as much after they added Bourque and Blake.

Good problem to have with too many good players to appreciate lol I get that. Just that there’s a lack of general recognition of the traits and tools that make Girard so valuable. Everyone knows he’s good yes but there’s a lot more to it.

 

[Ararana]

Byram

I still can't believe we have Makar, Girard, and Byram. Then you add in secondary pieces like Toews, Timmins, Barron. It's starting to get a bit harder to remember that decade we had a wasteland on defense.

I just hope at one point years from now, even for a little bit, our core six defense contains all of them.

Byram - Makar
Girard - Timmins
Toews - Barron

 

[AvsFan29]

View attachment 372860

I still can't believe we have Makar, Girard, and Byram. Then you add in secondary pieces like Toews, Timmins, Barron. It's starting to get a bit harder to remember that decade we had a wasteland on defense.

I just hope at one point years from now, even for a little bit, our core six defense contains all of them.

Byram - Makar
Girard - Timmins
Toews - Barron

That’s a solid group. Championship level defence. I keep seeing people posting about trading Timmins, but I’d like to see him play 40 games before we rush into any trades