Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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I mean, he's better already. That's kind of the point I'm making. It has nothing to do with "he will eventually because age". He is. Right now.
Better forward group: Tampa, Toronto or Other?
- Thread starter LGB51
- Start date
I mean, he's better already. That's kind of the point I'm making. It has nothing to do with "he will eventually because age". He is. Right now.
VoluntaryDom
Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
I could see them having equal goals but Marner shooting more to get those goals based on their shot selection. Assists hard to say.
Atomos2
Registered User
Right because it is utterly ridiculous to look for player comparables when discussing contracts. Someone should tell agents there determining value all wrong.
Ok let’s do this another way. Should Point be making more or less than Marner who is looking at an 8-9 mil contract?
CantLoseWithMatthews
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2015
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9 million for Marner would be ridiculous imo
kelsier
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So the Leafs developing core of youngsters just don't count? Is this the year where Paul Maurice and Bryan Little stop conspiring to suppress the Art-Ross winning potential of Laine? What a pathetic line of reasoningYour argument relies on zero development from Toronto's young players, but Jets youngsters to take a massive step forward to somehow negate Tavares.
Ha, I've been reading some of your late comments and believe me, they've been "entertaining". Nevermind your tendencies to visit every single Laine thread only to mock him. Hard to let go eh? Or was it "old habits die hard"? What's funny is when someone even forgets to pay his respects to Leafs prospects someone goes kaboom like this.
I didn't forget your precious players though. I just don't think the young Leafs core is enough to compete with what the the Jets have for instance. I'm sorry if the reality doesn't add up to your standards, but you have to learn to live with it I suppose.
Laine, Niku and Connor are probably taking huge steps forward. Ehlers, Morrisey and maybe even Hellebuyck definitely have more left in the tank while Vesalainen makes an excellent wild card. Oh, it absolutely matches up to whatever Tavarez brings on the table, especially since the acquisition itself will nicely close the door for much if any outside additions.
Oh and best of luck with signing Nylander (hope there's no trouble in the paradise)!
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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Why do you have such a tough time understanding the difference between RFA and UFA salaries? Other than in extreme cases (ie. the aforementioned franchise guys like McDavid, Matthews), RFAs don't get as much money as they would if they were UFA.
Mark Scheifele signed for $6.125 million a couple of years ago. Do you honestly think if he was UFA, he wouldn't get more than that? How about Kucherov, who was coming off back to back 65+ point seasons, signing for under $5 million per year. If he was UFA instead of RFA, do you honestly think a two time 65+ point winger with his upside would have signed for under $5 million?
I think Point will get somewhere in the $6 million range, give or take $700k. I think that's roughly the going rate for RFAs who aren't considered franchise guys. I also don't think Marner's getting as much as you think.
Ha, I've been reading some of your late comments and believe me, they've been "entertaining". Nevermind your tendencies to visit every single Laine thread only to mock him. Hard to let go eh? Or was it "old habits die hard"? What's funny is when someone even forgets to pay his respects to Leafs prospects someone goes kaboom like this.
I didn't forget your precious players though. I just don't think the young Leafs core is enough to compete with what the the Jets have for instance. I'm sorry if the reality doesn't add up to your standards, but you have to learn to live with it I suppose.
Laine, Niku and Connor are probably taking huge steps forward. Ehlers, Morrisey and maybe even Hellebuyck definitely have more left in the tank while Vesalainen makes an excellent wild card. Oh, it absolutely matches up to whatever Tavarez brings on the table, especially since the acquisition itself will nicely close the door for much if any outside additions.
Oh and best of luck with signing Nylander (hope there's no trouble in the paradise)!
Hey buddy the Jets definitely belong in the discussion, there's no denying that. But if I was to bet which team scores more goals next season, I'm going with the safe bet in the Leafs. Turrns out they were dead even with the Jets last season and now they've added a franchise center. And the Jets lost Stastny who was one of their most valuable guys in the playoffs. And as far as young players improving goes, Matthews showed a far better improvement in PPG last season than Laine and has developed far better than him thus far. Very good reason why he's regarded as the 4th best center by the pros. He's actually more regarded among centers than Laine is among wingers believe it or not. He better get used to playing with Brian Little cause if you want Connor to evolve he's gonna need to stay with Scheifele and Wheeler.
The "other" option could definitely be the Jets but if you're counting on the internal improvement of their youngsters (in conjunction with the subtraction of Stastny) to keep up with the Leafs then you need to temper your expectations.
I go Tampa but how is Tavares only > Point but Kucherov >>>>>> Nylander and Palat >>>>> Hyman?
VoluntaryDom
Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Point is a top 20 C in the NHL without a doubt, he’s a two way beast. Nylander is good but not on the level of Point or even close to Kuch. Hyman is average.
kelsier
Registered User
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Erm... Matthews played 18+ minutes while Laine played 16+ per/game and you preach about PPG difference? M'kay buddy! This is actually quite amusing cause there's a lot of whine around these boards for Matthews not getting enough ice time and I can only imagine the havoc in the Leafsnation had they cut him down to actual 2nd line minutes which actually happened with Laine. While we're discussing development, please find me one player with 70+ games last season who managed to get to PPG with 16:29 or less minutes played. While you're at it, why don't you find a player who scored 44 goals or more playing equal or less minutes from the recent years. Laine actually improved his GPG and was able to keep his overall production at similar level despite of playing with worse line mates compared to his rookie year and having significant cut on the aTOI. Oh and the so called experts ranking Matthews as the 4th best center in the league ahead of Tavarez himself (and many other actually better centers right now). Complete joke which's real intentions have more to do with targeting large fan bases and getting readers/click baits. I'm having trouble fitting him even top 10 and all things considered, he just might make a case for top 15. A fourth best NHL center doesn't disappear time and time again when the real games begin (playoffs). However, if you honestly believe his merits warrant the rank by these so called "pros" then that's fine by all means and that would explain this little intervention right here as well as many other recent strange takes from you. I suppose I can't but suggest you to try and watch some other teams as well.
Anyhow, the topic isn't about Matthews and Laine so there's that. You basically originally stated that the argument relied on "pathetic reasoning" yet at the same time I guess you either forgot or could not count the number of blue chip youngsters in each team (where Jets coasts ahead with an ease). I even forgot to add Roslovic who should have pretty good chances of breaking the top six next season. It had nothing whatsoever to do with young Leafs players not being able to elevate their games - there's just less overall talent to account for. Anyway, when all these young guys take next steps/leaps forward they become even more legitimate threats and make the current top 2 (if not #1) forward group even stronger and I don't think Tavarez is enough to tip the scales the other way. The only point you made that seemed to have any contextual value here was Stastny being a loss for the Jets, which is a pity indeed. Then again Roslovic showed tremendous ability last season already and just might be able to take on the 2nd line center duties. Guess we'll have to see how that plays out.
Pyrophorus
Registered User
Ha, I've been reading some of your late comments and believe me, they've been "entertaining". Nevermind your tendencies to visit every single Laine thread only to mock him. Hard to let go eh? Or was it "old habits die hard"? What's funny is when someone even forgets to pay his respects to Leafs prospects someone goes kaboom like this.
I didn't forget your precious players though. I just don't think the young Leafs core is enough to compete with what the the Jets have for instance. I'm sorry if the reality doesn't add up to your standards, but you have to learn to live with it I suppose.
Laine, Niku and Connor are probably taking huge steps forward. Ehlers, Morrisey and maybe even Hellebuyck definitely have more left in the tank while Vesalainen makes an excellent wild card. Oh, it absolutely matches up to whatever Tavarez brings on the table, especially since the acquisition itself will nicely close the door for much if any outside additions.
Oh and best of luck with signing Nylander (hope there's no trouble in the paradise)!
Not the same.
The former is they were tied-THAT is the reality.
The latter is what you think they will do-that IS NOT reality at this point.
I know you were itching to take hater shots here, but maybe the truth is, some will make a step forward, others won't.
Pyrophorus
Registered User
Ahhh...recency bias again
...and the playoffs before against a better team??
Yes, yes we will.
What you just said isn't a guarantee-its a hope.
- Jan 23, 2017
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Pretty sure it's only one, but to be fair, it should be zero.
kelsier
Registered User
- Aug 17, 2013
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Connor, Laine, Ehlers, Morrisey, Vesalainen, Hellebuyck, Roslovic, Niku etc are not reality M'kay. That's news to me. And just to make sure there are no misunderstandings, what's the common thing between all these players? They where/are widely considered as top prospects (obviously only Niku hasn't graduated) and now are the future young core of the franchise, which is better than whatever the Leafs can throw on the table. I don't consider Trouba and Scheifele that young anymore so left them out for a purpose.
Nope. I was responding in the exact same manner as I was replied to - you get what you give.
Playoffs against better team? Are you kidding me? You hear a lot of fans defending their players' bad performance based on the quality of their opponent especially in the playoffs where there are no weak teams? Don't think so. That's pathetic and no one should resort to such excuses.
I never guaranteed a thing. Maybe you need to re-read what was written. I clearly said "I don't think" which guarantees jackshit. Before that I used the phrase "I believe...". Perhaps you didn't quite comprehend but hope that elaborates. And yes, we will see indeed.
Ps. it's not bias, it's common sense but of course you can believe which ever you prefer.
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You need to settle down kelsier. You're coming across very silly. "M'kay"? Lol
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kelsier
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Mmm'kay. I hadn't even went down to the funny-mode yet but I can feel it coming! Rather have entertained readers than bored ones, so glad I didn't disappoint ya.
VoluntaryDom
Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Saying two players are comparable does not mean I prefer one over another. That’s the exact thing it doesn’t mean.
RegularSznAllStars
Registered User
- Sep 23, 2014
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Everyone assuming stamkos is tampa's top center is wrong. Point is our 1C, and the gap between him and Mathews/Tavares wont be much going forward (if there is a gap). He is a monster.
The minutes argument again, lmfao. Go look at Matthews PP time then look at Laine's. Go look at zone starts, usage, etc... and look at how unfavorable Matthews' situation really was compared to Laine. You refuse to take your Finnish-colored glasses off and look at the reality of the situation. Fact is, Matthews showed a better PPG improvement from his rookie to sophomore year whereas Laine showed minimal improvement. But don't worry, I already know it's all Paul Maurice and Brian Little's fault.
"
A fourth best NHL center doesn't disappear time and time again when the real games begin (playoffs)."
Oh dear, what in god's name are you on about now? Matthews has played a total of two playoff series, he was great in one and bad in one. He actually has the same amount of goals as Laine in the playoffs at this point. I know you tried your absolute damndest to ignore the Washington series but it won't work on me buddy.
But it's back to my original argument. If you really are counting on the Jets internal improvement to offset the Leafs improvement of adding a PPG+ franchise center, you're in for a rude awakening. Jack roslovic has proved about as much as NHL level as Andreas Johnsson has, you're barely educated about the prospects of the team you follow. That Stastny loss is going to sting if you're honestly counting on Roslovic to take over the 2nd line C spot.
"
Guess we'll have to see how that plays out."
You won't come back. Just like you never came back when Laine failed to meet your utterly insane expectations.
Dipsy Doodle
Rent A Barn
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kelsier
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Awww. We are talking about total minutes, not EV strength minutes, not PP minutes but the entire time they spend on the ice. Even if Laine owns Matthews on PP time at the end he still plays less. Had Matthews played 16:29 min/game season, he would not have crossed the PPG cause that's practically impossible in today's game. By the way, good luck trying to convince people that Laine had minimal development after 44 goal campaign, your doing awfully good job here!
It truly is quite funny how I consistently need to remind you how things have happened and I'm not even a Matthews fan. The NLA cup run doesn't count, is that what you are trying to say? Would you like to share more thoughts on that matter? Yeah, I would say it makes three missed marks and no Matthews absolutely has not been great at any one of those three cup runs (quite the opposite). Should and since you disagree, why don't you elaborate which playoffs did he own again and how? With Matthews a team seems to be lucky to get past first round. And yet here we are, talking about top 4 center in the world, ha! But hey, there's always the next year, aye?
Well we are certainly about to find out aren't we? Counting scored goals after regular season is over and done with certainly won't take much time and I won't have any problems re-visiting this topic after everything is over and done with. The Jets have a better team and still, a better offence so no Tavarez won't offset the balance (I don't know how many times I have to tell you this). To pick up one single youngster out of large pool and implying that the entire next year somehow rests upon his shoulders is the most amusing thing I've heard in a while. Discrediting him right after is like reading a textbook @ HFLeafs, so nothing unusual there. You seem to know pretty much nothing at all about Roslovic. And anyway, for all we know Laine might play in the first line next year and there are no center concerns whatsoever. Stastny was an expendable piece on the table and nothing more. That team will score f*loads of goals again with or without, so you can let go with it already.
"Laine has failed to meet my utterly insane expectations?"
hahah, frigging hilarious. Please, feel free to share even one such instance. Seriously, cannot wait! I have always come back and always will come back. As for my expectations, they've never been anymore insane than he has eventually provided. Couldn't have asked anymore or be more proud, truly. By the way I hope you're not letting your emotions get the best of you, cause honestly whenever someone starts making things up there's usually some pieces that are not quite right.Anyway, I expect to get that quote the first thing in the morning (with an actual URL, not "he said, she said"). Don't fail up on me!
Steeze
Dazed Dilettante.
- Jul 23, 2015
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I really can't wait until the season starts and we can go back to arguing about what -is- happening instead of what -might- happen.
Awww. We are talking about total minutes, not EV strength minutes, not PP minutes but the entire time they spend on the ice. Even if Laine owns Matthews on PP time at the end he still plays less. Had Matthews played 16:29 min/game season, he would not have crossed the PPG cause that's practically impossible in today's game. By the way, good luck trying to convince people that Laine had minimal development after 44 goal campaign, your doing awfully good job here!
It truly is quite funny how I consistently need to remind you how things have happened and I'm not even a Matthews fan. The NLA cup run doesn't count, is that what you are trying to say? Would you like to share more thoughts on that matter? Yeah, I would say it makes three missed marks and no Matthews absolutely has not been great at any one of those three cup runs (quite the opposite). Should and since you disagree, why don't you elaborate which playoffs did he own again and how? With Matthews a team seems to be lucky to get past first round. And yet here we are, talking about top 4 center in the world, ha! But hey, there's always the next year, aye?
Well we are certainly about to find out aren't we? Counting scored goals after regular season is over and done with certainly won't take much time and I won't have any problems re-visiting this topic after everything is over and done with. The Jets have a better team and still, a better offence so no Tavarez won't offset the balance (I don't know how many times I have to tell you this). To pick up one single youngster out of large pool and implying that the entire next year somehow rests upon his shoulders is the most amusing thing I've heard in a while. Discrediting him right after is like reading a textbook @ HFLeafs, so nothing unusual there. You seem to know pretty much nothing at all about Roslovic. And anyway, for all we know Laine might play in the first line next year and there are no center concerns whatsoever. Stastny was an expendable piece on the table and nothing more. That team will score f*loads of goals again with or without, so you can let go with it already.
"Laine has failed to meet my utterly insane expectations?"
Anyway, I expect to get that quote the first thing in the morning (with an actual URL, not "he said, she said"). Don't fail up on me!
How many experts judge young players on what they did prior to the NHL when they already have 2 seasons of NHL experience under their belt? Pretty much none. I'm baffled why you're even going this route. And I'm sorry but the facts are just the facts - Matthews had a superior PPG than Laine and showed more improvement than him from rookie to sophomore, I'm really not interested in your hypothetical garbage arguments to try and make Laine equal.
And continuing on with TavareS(it's not spelled with a Z) point, you should be taking into consideration the trickle-effect he is going to have on the lineup. I know that you know that the Jets saw a sizeable increase in goals when Stastny came to Winnipeg and a lot of it had to do with the trickle effect. Slotting in Stastny beside Laine gave the Jets high scoring 1st and 2nd lines and allowed Little to be used in an all-utility role which gave more favorable usage to the top two lines. Stastny leaving is why I don't believe the Jets can win the comparison versus Toronto, Tampa or Pittsburgh. If you load Laine and Scheifele together, the 2nd line is going to suffer. And plus what kind of improvement would it even make? Wheeler is already the Jets best offensive player who's scored 90 points on the 1st line.
And I'm sorry I'll have to admit my mistake. It wasn't you who predicted 55 goals 100 points for Laine, it was your good friend Psychodad. I mixed you two up again.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 55,822
- 46,998
Eh, until the regular season ends, we'll still be arguing about what might happen even when the season begins.
VoluntaryDom
Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
I agree with @IPS that Matthews is significantly and noticeably better than Laine
