OT: BC wildfire smoke has now reached the Ottawa valley

Status
Not open for further replies.

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,913
9,329
Probably because alot of uneducated people would say something like "hey this winter is colder than usual, so global warming must be fake news cause its actually getting colder".

Every freaking article The Weather Network puts out has at least a few posters writing exactly that. It's infuriating. I can't imagine how disheartening it is for scientists and climatologists to spend a lifetime learning and researching only to have Joe Random dismiss everything because of the weather outside on any particular day.
 

DrEasy

Out rumptackling
Oct 3, 2010
11,014
6,709
Stützville
Seems like we're talking past each other... I'll summarize below some of the arguments and give answers that I think are fairly consensual, but please feel free to debate them.

Q: Are humans polluting the planet and depleting our natural resources? A: duh
Q: Are pollution and other human activities affecting climate? A: scientists say yes.
Q: Should people change their daily habits to slow down that effect? A: yes
Q: But will they? A: as Alfie would say: "probably not"
Q: Are people saying we should stop using oil TODAY? A: No, except for some fringe, because it's not practical, and.. see answer to previous question.
Q: Will efforts in reducing human-made contribution to climate change be sufficient to reverse trends in the face of increasing population? A: who knows... should we try anyway though, or should we just give up and collectively jump over a bridge?
Q: Are there people/companies who benefit from green energy? A: yes
Q: Is that a bad thing? A: no worse than people who benefit from non-green energy.
Q: Is there any hope? Or signs for hope? A: Renewables are getting cheaper every year, and taking a higher and higher percentage of global energy production worldwide, partially due to subsidies, partially due to scientific progress, partially due to economies of scale and improved manufacturing.

Other arguments I'll throw in there:

- Reducing dependency on oil also has an impact on world diplomacy and trade. Less fattening up of corrupt countries with questionable human rights practices, who often fund terrorism using oil money. BUT it will also affect Canada.

- Demographic projections seem to be optimistic that we won't necessarily have an exponential population growth ahead. As developing countries improve their economic situation, their population growth slows down, like it happened in developed countries. BUT these countries will probably have higher energy consumption per capita, as a result of this economic development. So maybe it's a wash?

- Pollution has already improved in many cities (Mexico City, for example, though it's getting worse again now). Car emissions have been reduced and improved (hope! progress!). The banning of CFC in the 80s/90s (and DDT before that) shows that there can be a worldwide consensus that can measurably improve the planet's health. Some countries have reached 100% dependency on renewable energy.

- Many countries are investing heavily in renewables (China, Germany). This is a sector and market that matters, no matter our ideology. We don't want to fall behind in this economic race.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,375
8,179
Victoria
Smoke has really been settling over the city the last few days. Smells like a campfire in the house now and visibility is down to a few kilometres.

Rain or wind would be nice any day now.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,913
9,329
So did everyone turn their air conditioning off this summer? just wondering how much we care.


Well, I need something to pull the humidity out of the air and cool the house down durign teh day while I sleep, so I definitely use an air conditioner.

But, in the summer I also seriously cut down on using the oven (like going on 3 months now not using it), turn off all the lights most of the time, and only watched the tv this summer during the draft, free agent day, and a few of those under-18 games. So, it balances out.
 

Engineer

Rustled your jimmies
Dec 23, 2013
6,143
1,892
Interesting comments.

[/MEDIA=youtube]zrMnKaN33QM[/MEDIA]

[/MEDIA=youtube]dcdPM5FY8Ug[/MEDIA]

Tim Ball is a fraud who has been completely discredited in academia.

Also, "Freedom Free For All" Youtube channel? Really? :help:

As for ozone depletion and the effect from CFC's; I can't believe this is even being challenged. Here, some actual peer-edited articles:

"Observations of ozone and of chlorine‐related trace gases near 40 km provide evidence that gas phase chemistry has indeed currently depleted about 10% of the stratospheric ozone there as predicted, and the vertical and horizontal structures of this depletion are fingerprints for that process. "
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/1999RG900008

"These findings suggest that dissociation of chlorofluorocarbons by capture of electrons produced by cosmic rays and localized in polar stratospheric cloud ice may play a significant role in causing the ozone hole."
Phys. Rev. Lett. 87, 078501 (2001) - Effects of Cosmic Rays on Atmospheric Chlorofluorocarbon Dissociation and Ozone Depletion

"Ozone depletion by chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) was first proposed by Molina and Rowland in their 1974 Nature paper. Since that time, the scientific connection between ozone losses and CFCs and other ozone depleting substances (ODSs) has been firmly established with laboratory measurements, atmospheric observations, and modeling studies. This science research led to the implementation of international agreements that largely stopped the production of ODSs. "
ACP - What would have happened to the ozone layer if chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) had not been regulated?

Chlorofluorocarbons and the Depletion of Stratospheric Ozone on JSTOR
 

DylanSensFan

BEESHIP: NBH
Aug 3, 2010
9,403
1,713
Calgary
ds6OTm.jpg

Certainly good for the pine beetle population.. this year the fire numbers are up from last year's record. Almost seems to be getting worse year to year

Almost seems like Climate Change brought on by Global Warming. Yet their continue to be deniers such as the current POTUS.
 

topshelf15

Registered User
May 5, 2009
27,993
6,005
Iam done arguing,I dont believe in a magic pill ,that will save humanity from destroying the planet...The one failing all humans have is greed,everybody wants..And that in the end does us all in
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,303
3,701
Ottabot City
The claim that there is a 97% consensus among scientists that humans are the cause of global warming is widely made in climate change literature and by political figures. It has been heavily publicized, often in the form of pie charts, as illustrated by this figure from the Consensus Project.

"The 97% figure has been disputed and vigorously defended, with emotional arguments and counterarguments published in a number of papers. Although the degree of consensus is only one of several arguments for anthropogenic climate change – the statements of professional societies and evidence presented in reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change are others – there is data to suggest that support is lower. In this post, I attempt to determine whether the 97% consensus is fact or fiction.
The 97% number was popularized by two articles, the first by Naomi Oreskes, now Professor of Science History and Affiliated Professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences at Harvard University, and the second by a group of authors led by John Cook, the Climate Communication Fellow for the Global Change Institute at The University of Queensland. Both papers were based on analyses of earlier publications. Other analyses and surveys arrive at different, often lower, numbers depending in part on how support for the concept was defined and on the population surveyed.
This public discussion was started by Oreskes’ brief 2004 article, which included an analysis of 928 papers containing the keywords “global climate change.” The article says “none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position” of anthropogenic global warming. Although this article makes no claim to a specific number, it is routinely described as indicating 100% agreement and used as support for the 97% figure.

Cook is careful to describe his 2013 study results as being based on “climate experts.” Political figures and the popular press are not so careful. President Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have repeatedly characterized it as 97% of scientists. Kerry has gone so far as to say that “97 percent of peer-reviewed climate studies confirm that climate change is happening and that human activity is largely responsible.” This is patently wrong, since the Cook study and others showed that the majority of papers take no position. One does not expect nuance in political speeches, and the authors of scientific papers cannot be held responsible for the statements of politicians and the media.
Given these results, it is clear that support among scientists for human-caused climate change is below 97%. Most studies including specialties other than climatologists find support in the range of 80% to 90%. The 97% consensus of scientists, when used without limitation to climate scientists, is false.
In the strict sense, the 97% consensus is false, even when limited to climate scientists. The 2016 Cook review found the consensus to be “shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists.” One survey found it to be 84%. Continuing to claim 97% support is deceptive. I find the 97% consensus of climate scientists to be overstated."

Fact Checking The Claim Of 97% Consensus On Anthropogenic Climate Change

Scientists receive funding for proving climate change is caused by humans. They also lose their jobs and get ostracized for going against the grain.

"The work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus."
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Apr 30, 2004
32,442
9,701
Lansing, MI
The claim that there is a 97% consensus among scientists that humans are the cause of global warming is widely made in climate change literature and by political figures. It has been heavily publicized, often in the form of pie charts, as illustrated by this figure from the Consensus Project.

"The 97% figure has been disputed and vigorously defended, with emotional arguments and counterarguments published in a number of papers. Although the degree of consensus is only one of several arguments for anthropogenic climate change – the statements of professional societies and evidence presented in reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change are others – there is data to suggest that support is lower. In this post, I attempt to determine whether the 97% consensus is fact or fiction.
The 97% number was popularized by two articles, the first by Naomi Oreskes, now Professor of Science History and Affiliated Professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences at Harvard University, and the second by a group of authors led by John Cook, the Climate Communication Fellow for the Global Change Institute at The University of Queensland. Both papers were based on analyses of earlier publications. Other analyses and surveys arrive at different, often lower, numbers depending in part on how support for the concept was defined and on the population surveyed.
This public discussion was started by Oreskes’ brief 2004 article, which included an analysis of 928 papers containing the keywords “global climate change.” The article says “none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position” of anthropogenic global warming. Although this article makes no claim to a specific number, it is routinely described as indicating 100% agreement and used as support for the 97% figure.

Cook is careful to describe his 2013 study results as being based on “climate experts.” Political figures and the popular press are not so careful. President Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have repeatedly characterized it as 97% of scientists. Kerry has gone so far as to say that “97 percent of peer-reviewed climate studies confirm that climate change is happening and that human activity is largely responsible.” This is patently wrong, since the Cook study and others showed that the majority of papers take no position. One does not expect nuance in political speeches, and the authors of scientific papers cannot be held responsible for the statements of politicians and the media.
Given these results, it is clear that support among scientists for human-caused climate change is below 97%. Most studies including specialties other than climatologists find support in the range of 80% to 90%. The 97% consensus of scientists, when used without limitation to climate scientists, is false.
In the strict sense, the 97% consensus is false, even when limited to climate scientists. The 2016 Cook review found the consensus to be “shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists.” One survey found it to be 84%. Continuing to claim 97% support is deceptive. I find the 97% consensus of climate scientists to be overstated."

Fact Checking The Claim Of 97% Consensus On Anthropogenic Climate Change

Scientists receive funding for proving climate change is caused by humans. They also lose their jobs and get ostracized for going against the grain.

"The work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus."

I still don’t see how anything written here convinces me to get rid of trying to reduce CO2 emissions and pollution on our planet.
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,303
3,701
Ottabot City
I still don’t see how anything written here convinces me to get rid of trying to reduce CO2 emissions and pollution on our planet.
It's not posted to try and indoctrinate you. it's to show how easy it is to manipulate findings and come out with misleading "truths" that get repeated and sown into your subconscious. It's very hard to break that cycle if you're not skeptical at first. I'm not trying to say Climate change isn't real I'm just trying to show there are a number of ways how policies are made and that people can pay for what they want regardless of the "consensus". I think we all want to reduce pollution to zero if possible but at what cost? It seems like our politicians like to be advised to throw money at it and it will some how fix the problem. Special interest groups lobby the government and convince them it is in own our interest to invest our money when the problem has very wide parameters that aren't specific. This isn't the first crisis that we have faced and it won't be the last. It's a never ending cycle to promote fear in the populace and to take advantage of those who are trusting that the system has their best interest in mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ray Kinsella

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,913
9,329
No one is saying that pollution will ever hit zero (or even close to it). The solution, is to work towards better, cleaner technologies and to invest in reducing our carbon footprint as much as possible.

The real problem, is big companies like the fossil fuel industry are throwing a bunch of mud into the water and trying to convince people the grren movement is wrong. There's a lot of people out there working in those industries who are afraid of losing their jobs and can't see past their own nose. So, you get a lot of deniers pushing propganda videos and misinformation to try and discredit anything that doesn't promote fossil fuels.
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Apr 30, 2004
32,442
9,701
Lansing, MI
It's not posted to try and indoctrinate you. it's to show how easy it is to manipulate findings and come out with misleading "truths" that get repeated and sown into your subconscious. It's very hard to break that cycle if you're not skeptical at first. I'm not trying to say Climate change isn't real I'm just trying to show there are a number of ways how policies are made and that people can pay for what they want regardless of the "consensus". I think we all want to reduce pollution to zero if possible but at what cost? It seems like our politicians like to be advised to throw money at it and it will some how fix the problem. Special interest groups lobby the government and convince them it is in own our interest to invest our money when the problem has very wide parameters that aren't specific. This isn't the first crisis that we have faced and it won't be the last. It's a never ending cycle to promote fear in the populace and to take advantage of those who are trusting that the system has their best interest in mind.

Sure being skeptical of something is fine and then you do your research on the subject. I'm still not totally sure of the point your driving towards besides do your research. At what point do you believe something is real or not? As for what cost, the cost should probably be high as I enjoy my lakes, weather, forests, quality of air, and oceans. In a capitalist economy deregulation only ever causes pain.

I feel like every guy you wrote could be applied more towards the fossil fuel industry than the scientific community although yes, they are not infallible.
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,303
3,701
Ottabot City
No one is saying that pollution will ever hit zero (or even close to it). The solution, is to work towards better, cleaner technologies and to invest in reducing our carbon footprint as much as possible.

The real problem, is big companies like the fossil fuel industry are throwing a bunch of mud into the water and trying to convince people the grren movement is wrong. There's a lot of people out there working in those industries who are afraid of losing their jobs and can't see past their own nose. So, you get a lot of deniers pushing propganda videos and misinformation to try and discredit anything that doesn't promote fossil fuels.
But how do you know if the Greenies aren't doing the same thing? There is money to be made on both sides so there are going to be misinformation. The fossil fuels industry knows that they will eventually lose market share. What if the Fossil fuel industry is behind the Green movement? There are a lot of patents out there that get bought out and tucked away for a later date. Corporations make moves to guarantee the survival no matter which way it takes them. Do you think oil companies aren't investing in this new frontier? I think they are. We just get to believe we are fighting for the right side what ever that might be.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,913
9,329
But how do you know if the Greenies aren't doing the same thing? There is money to be made on both sides so there are going to be misinformation. The fossil fuels industry knows that they will eventually lose market share. What if the Fossil fuel industry is behind the Green movement? There are a lot of patents out there that get bought out and tucked away for a later date. Corporations make moves to guarantee the survival no matter which way it takes them. Do you think oil companies aren't investing in this new frontier? I think they are. We just get to believe we are fighting for the right side what ever that might be.


Because someone isn't going to willingly give up huge profits or moderate ones. Green technology isn't going to make folks richer then fossil fuels. Now, I have no doubt some big oil companies are investing in green technology. Having eggs in multiple baskets and all that. But, that doesn't mean you automatically discount the green movement.
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,303
3,701
Ottabot City
Because someone isn't going to willingly give up huge profits or moderate ones. Green technology isn't going to make folks richer then fossil fuels. Now, I have no doubt some big oil companies are investing in green technology. Having eggs in multiple baskets and all that. But, that doesn't mean you automatically discount the green movement.
I'n not saying that there is anything wrong with the green movement it's the path and who pays for it is which is the problem. The corporations responsible for inventing these issue's should be the ones responsible for paying for them and not our tax dollars. The government bends over backwards for them and bends us over.
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,066
1,608
Calgary
I'n not saying that there is anything wrong with the green movement it's the path and who pays for it is which is the problem. The corporations responsible for inventing these issue's should be the ones responsible for paying for them and not our tax dollars. The government bends over backwards for them and bends us over.

A carbon tax targets corporations more than consumers, and also encourages them to innovate ways to get their product to market with less carbon (and therefore cheaper than their competitors). It is unfair to paint corporations as inherently evil, but given the opportunity unethical ones will make money by acting imorally. I think the best solution is to make an economic environment which rewards companies that make society a better place.
 

DylanSensFan

BEESHIP: NBH
Aug 3, 2010
9,403
1,713
Calgary
It's not posted to try and indoctrinate you. it's to show how easy it is to manipulate findings and come out with misleading "truths" that get repeated and sown into your subconscious. It's very hard to break that cycle if you're not skeptical at first. I'm not trying to say Climate change isn't real I'm just trying to show there are a number of ways how policies are made and that people can pay for what they want regardless of the "consensus". I think we all want to reduce pollution to zero if possible but at what cost? It seems like our politicians like to be advised to throw money at it and it will some how fix the problem. Special interest groups lobby the government and convince them it is in own our interest to invest our money when the problem has very wide parameters that aren't specific. This isn't the first crisis that we have faced and it won't be the last. It's a never ending cycle to promote fear in the populace and to take advantage of those who are trusting that the system has their best interest in mind.

The fact that the author of this research is an author for books about many Dinosaurs that did not actually exist in the Jurassic era, should be the first clue that it is fiction. Please tell me you have at least a little bit of post secondary education and that you've read articles pertaining to anthropogenic climate change. For instance: http://www.iisbe.org/system/files/SBC Energy Institute_Climate Change FactBook.pdf

If you do not know who Schlumberge is, watch the movie Deep Water Horizon. They are a major oil service company and they have put their stamp on the report above. Watch the documentary Thin Ice which you can find for free with a little bit of googling. I watched a pre-release at our science center. The Earth stores carbon in many ways, including our oceans, lakes, soil, trees, and so on. But we are pushing beyond the planets limit. Them's simple facts.

Excess carbon in our atmosphere puts the Earth's energy input and output out of wack. The global temperature is rising and thus ocean currents are changing due to melting cap ice. Weather patterns are changing globally, thus it is called CLIMATE CHANGE. Richard Lindzen is a paid hack, who works for the Koch brothers who's father basically made the family rich by helping Stalin set up oil fields in the former USSR. The late Crichton's support of him will go down as one of the biggest mistakes in history.
 
Last edited:

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,913
9,329
I'n not saying that there is anything wrong with the green movement it's the path and who pays for it is which is the problem. The corporations responsible for inventing these issue's should be the ones responsible for paying for them and not our tax dollars. The government bends over backwards for them and bends us over.


Welcome to capitalism.

In todays society, the governments will always bend over for the deepest pockets. And it's like anything else...wars are started by the rich and fought by the poor...policies are set by the rich and powerful, and paid for by the poor...opportunity is measured in dollars. C'est la vie.
 

CTC

Registered User
Oct 9, 2014
469
152
So did everyone turn their air conditioning off this summer? just wondering how much we care.

I hadn't owned one for 5 years, you surprisingly acclimatize quite well over the summer. I see people go from AC buildings to ac vehicles to ac homes and rack up their energy bills. Now this year though...it was hot, way too hot, even with fans and ice packs and cold showers before bed...so i finally went shopping during that 45 degree heat wave only to find it was the a.c zombie apocalypse! Nothing to be found anywhere! But I did score a small unit, threw it in one of the kid's rooms and it did the job very well, from 37 on the thermostat to 24, huge difference.
But i think i ran it in total 2 weeks this summer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sens of Anarchy

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,303
3,701
Ottabot City
The fact that the author of this research is an author for books about many Dinosaurs that did not actually exist in the Jurassic era, should be the first clue that it is fiction. Please tell me you have at least a little bit of post secondary education and that you've read articles pertaining to anthropogenic climate change. For instance: http://www.iisbe.org/system/files/SBC Energy Institute_Climate Change FactBook.pdf

If you do not know who Schlumberge is, watch the movie Deep Water Horizon. They are a major oil service company and they have put their stamp on the report above. Watch the documentary Thin Ice which you can find for free with a little bit of googling. I watched a pre-release at our science center. The Earth stores carbon in many ways, including our oceans, lakes, soil, trees, and so on. But we are pushing beyond the planets limit. Them's simple facts.

Excess carbon in our atmosphere puts the Earth's energy input and output out of wack. The global temperature is rising and thus ocean currents are changing due to melting cap ice. Weather patterns are changing globally, thus it is called CLIMATE CHANGE. Richard Lindzen is a paid hack, who works for the Koch brothers who's father basically made the family rich by helping Stalin set up oil fields in the former USSR. The late Crichton's support of him will go down as one of the biggest mistakes in history.

I have post secondary education just not in the sciences.

John Michael Crichton received a bachelor's degree in biological anthropology summa cum laude and was initiated into the Phi Kappa Beta Society. He graduated from Harvard, obtaining an MD in 1969 all the while continuing writing novel's and chose that as his passion. The fact you try to discredit him by saying he wrote books about non existent dinosaurs is the reason why you don't listen to what he is talking about. You basically place him in the conspiracy theorist category for his opposing view on climate change.

The thing is that there is always an unlimited budget when they want to prove something and make a career out of it.



 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad