OT: BC wildfire smoke has now reached the Ottawa valley

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coladin

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A lot of money can be made in new green technology, but it takes a lot of capital investment, and research and development. You also run the risk of someone else developing better tech, or stealing your tech, or coming up with something slightly different (even inferior) that customers prefer which takes over the market (VHA vs Beta comes to mind here).

Great payoff, but also massive risk. It's a whole lot easier to stick with established known money-makers like fossil fuels and coal. The way things are these days with big money stockholders and investors demanding dividends right away, instead of solid long-term growth, it's harder and harder for companies to put a lot of money into R&D. Things aren't like they used to be in the business world. Get that big profit now, and the heck with anything else.

Those wind turbines by Samsung have been a disaster in Ontario. I am all for finding green technologies, but they have to work. It is hard to separate the science of it with the obvious payout for less scrupulous people, and that includes scientists.

I am not a climate change denier, but I also have a healthy does of skepticism to buying the whole enchilada that scientists are selling.
 
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coladin

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So you've just shown it's useless to carry a conversation with you regarding anything scientific.

Whether the classification of Pluto has changed or not has nothing to do with this. Pluto hasn't cleared enough of it's debris in it's orbit to be considered a planet. Big deal. Has literally nothing to do with climate change or the scientific method.

It depends on how you want to perceive my question. We all grew up with Pluto being a planet. Scientists told us and curriculums were based on it for generations. Now it isn't. Instead of scientists saying they screwed up, it is presented as "we now know blah blah blah"...so I don't completely buy in to science because scientists are human beings. And human beings make mistakes.

I am not a climate change denier. I believe something is up, but I also don't buy what scientists push hook , line and sinker.
 

Engineer

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According to who???YOU???

Holy f***, this is like talking to a wall. According to your hilariously incorrect comments that multiple people have called out:

"That is the problem,all of these scientists are doing what they do which is really just guessing..."
".So educated guess or not,I really dont like being told one way or the other what may be happening,or may not be.."
"Meh,for everyone saying there is an issue with climate change there is another group that denies it"
"I just dont believe its over one thing,climate change happens over anything from cutting down too many trees to using too much carbon..Or sand dredging,damning of waterways etc etc...."
"What about it??Is there not more than one theory???"
"But I have heard many things ,and Iam sure ill hear many more...."
"Everyday one theory gets thrown out the window for another...."
"But for every theory ,there is often another...The contradicts the first one...."

You literally don't understand the scientific method and how it works.
It really only takes a few hours of reading to get a basic understanding, instead of posting a bunch of factually wrong statements, why don't you use that effort to learn?
 

coladin

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Do you know what science is? Through the scientific method, we invent things that create new industries that create jobs and stimulate the economy. These creations also help make life easier.

Are you Amish? I don't get the ignorance when it comes to simple science. Did you skip high school? Seriously concerning.

No, Italian. Science is the study of the physical and natural world through observation. These observations are carried out by scientists. Scientists are human beings specialized in these areas of study. Through trail and error, theories are created and supported by the study of the physical and natural world... science.

Scientists do get it wrong from time to time. Are we going to create an industry based on scientists backed by big business? Again, these are still human beings who are saddled with the same hopes and dreams (and material desires) as common folk. You see it all the time in pharmaceuticals, scientists perhaps rushing decisions and trials, etc...

Scientists have helped shape our world, for the positive and negative. Remember that these same scientists are behind catastrophic creations that have done irreparable harm to the world.

I respect scientists much the same way I respect priests. But they are still human.
 
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topshelf15

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Holy ****, this is like talking to a wall. According to your hilariously incorrect comments:

"That is the problem,all of these scientists are doing what they do which is really just guessing..."
".So educated guess or not,I really dont like being told one way or the other what may be happening,or may not be.."
"Meh,for everyone saying there is an issue with climate change there is another group that denies it"
"I just dont believe its over one thing,climate change happens over anything from cutting down too many trees to using too much carbon..Or sand dredging,damning of waterways etc etc...."
"What about it??Is there not more than one theory???"
"But I have heard many things ,and Iam sure ill hear many more...."
"Everyday one theory gets thrown out the window for another...."
"But for every theory ,there is often another...The contradicts the first one...."
How are they incorrect??Is climate change only effected by carbon???Is climate change not a guess ,albeit an educated one...Is there usually more than one theory in any scientific area of study??Is china not the largest producer of green house gas??Where again have I said the earth isnt in trouble again???

Just because I dont buy into whatever the industrialised ,cut down for profit version opinion that is out there... Doesnt mean I dont believe there isnt an issue....I just I have no faith in the people that are telling me to pay more ,for things to stay the same...But with a different package,and logo
 

Engineer

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How are they incorrect??Is climate change only effected by carbon???Is climate change not a guess ,albeit an educated one...Is there usually more than one theory in any scientific area of study??Is china not the largest producer of green house gas??Where again have I said the earth isnt in trouble again???
Nope, we aren't discussing this again, your claims were all shown why they were wrong already, you can go reread and learn if you want.

Just because I dont buy into whatever the industrialised ,cut down for profit version opinion that is out there... Doesnt mean I dont believe there isnt an issue....I just I have no faith in the people that are telling me to pay more ,for things to stay the same...But with a different package,and logo
Everything you have stated boils down to your mindset being: "others won't change, so I refuse to change". [mod]
 
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Engineer

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It depends on how you want to perceive my question. We all grew up with Pluto being a planet. Scientists told us and curriculums were based on it for generations. Now it isn't. Instead of scientists saying they screwed up, it is presented as "we now know blah blah blah"...so I don't completely buy in to science because scientists are human beings. And human beings make mistakes.

I am not a climate change denier. I believe something is up, but I also don't buy what scientists push hook , line and sinker.
Nobody claims science is static and not constantly evolving, actually anybody who claims that doesn't understand the scientific method.

Pluto was classified as a planet in the 1930's when it was discovered. Since then astronomers have identified other objects in it's orbit, which means it shouldn't be truly classified as a planet. That occurred due to improvements in technology and improved observatories. So they reclassified it to meet the definitions that they place on other dwarf planets.

That is a weird example to be upset about the scientific method. You're using it as an example that scientists get things wrong, when really it's an example that our understandings continually improve because of science.
 

topshelf15

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No, Italian. Science is the study of the physical and natural world through observation. These observations are carried out by scientists. Scientists are human beings specialized in these areas of study. Through trail and error, theories are created and supported by the study of the physical and natural world... science.

Scientists do get it wrong from time to time. Are we going to create an industry based on scientists backed by big business? Again, these are still human beings who are saddled with the same hopes and dreams (and material desires) as common folk. You see it all the time in pharmaceuticals, scientists perhaps rushing decisions and trials, etc...

Scientists have helped shape our world, for the positive and negative. Remember that these same scientists are behind catastrophic creations that have done irreparable harm to the world.

I respect scientists much the same way I respect priests. But they are still human.
Bingo....Iam told iam doing good by running Urea in my rig...But when i actively regenerate the filters i can tell you there is a boatload of foul smelling smoke that comes off it..Add in the fact this wonder device allows me to have a truck that is no where near as reliable,and gives me even more added expense in buying the damn crap that freezes in the tank unless u keep it plugged in ....I have no issue with helping the planet in fact we should all be doing it ,but people really need to give us workable solutions...Not ones that add more and more expense to the middle and lower class of people..while the people who push this shit... Have huge collections of high powered gasoline engined cars in the 10000sqft mansions,and get to tell everyone they are in in to make the world Greener
 

topshelf15

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Nope, we aren't discussing this again, your claims were all shown why they were wrong already, you can go reread and learn if you want.


Everything you have stated boils down to your mindset being: "others won't change, so I refuse to change". [mod]
[mod]Because I wont bow down to anybody telling me what I should and shouldnt do...When I dont believe the end game isnt self serving...You say Iam wrong, but dont answer any of my questions just insult my intelligence ...And move on rinse and repeat???

So again,is climate change affected by more than carbon??Is China not the largest producer of greenhouse gas??Is there usually more than one theory in any scientific study??And where again have I said the earth isnt in trouble???

Or do I get the norm???Or do you have the courage to answer these 4 simple questions??
 
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Engineer

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[MOD] You literally were just crying over having to use urea in your truck, you have no idea why you need to use it, but you cry about it anyway. You posted another red herring in your reason why you shouldn't have to use it, crying that rich people have "huge collections of high powered gasoline engined cars". Gas cars can reduce their NOx emissions appropriately from catalytic converters, diesel engines can't. Hence why we use urea. Your [as usual] uneducated comment was once again irrelevant.

Because I wont bow down to anybody telling me what I should and shouldnt do...When I dont believe the end game isnt self serving...You say Iam wrong, but dont answer any of my questions just insult my intelligence ...And move on rinse and repeat??? So again,is climate change affected by more than carbon??Is China not the largest producer of greenhouse gas??Is there usually more than one theory in any scientific study??

Or do I get the norm???Or do you have the courage to answer these 4 simple questions??
Your questions are not the same as they first were. Let me remind you how you presented them.
You claimed carbon emissions aren't the only thing affecting climate change, therefore we shouldn't worry about it. Wrong as always.
You claimed china won't invest in green technologies. However, they are the worlds largest investor in green technologies. Wrong as always.
The leading hypothesis after extensive reproduction of studies, determines a scientific theory, there is not usually more than one theory explaining a phenomenon. You have no understanding of the scientific method, your thoughts and opinions on this topic are irrelevant as we already determined.
 
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topshelf15

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Quite the ramblings going on I don’t even know what coladin and topshelf are even trying to say at this point. :laugh:
Iam not a climate change denier,but iam also no fool...Everybody wants,so everybody takes...Green energy people included...When the world wants to get serious,about the issues then ill start...Until then they can keep the expensive "I feel good about myself today "shit to themselves
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

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Iam not a climate change denier,but iam also no fool...Everybody wants,so everybody takes...Green energy people included...When the world wants to get serious,about the issues then ill start...Until then they can keep the expensive "I feel good about myself today "**** to themselves

Gotcha, I get what you’re saying but I feel like you can still do little personal things that has no effect on people getting rich using green energy as their “front.”

It was just tough to see your talking points and I most certainly am not going to completely disagree with them. There will be people looking to capitalize on any industry. I assume a good example would be someone like Elon Musk.

On the flip side, there are truly people out there looking to do good and solve world issues. That does exist too.
 

topshelf15

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Yes, you are a coward. You literally were just crying over having to use urea in your truck, you have no idea why you need to use it, but you cry about it anyway. You posted another red herring in your reason why you shouldn't have to use it, crying that rich people"huge collections of high powered gasoline engined cars". Gas cars can reduce their NOx emissions appropriately from catalytic converters, diesel engines can't. Hence why we use urea. Your [as usual] uneducated comment was once again irrelevant.


Your questions are not the same as they first were. Let me remind you how you presented them.
You claimed carbon emissions aren't the only thing affecting climate change, therefore we shouldn't worry about it. Wrong as always.
You claimed china won't invest in green technologies, however, they are the worlds largest investor in green technologies. Wrong as always.
The leading hypothesis after extensive reproduction of studies, determines a scientific theory, there is not usually more than one theory explaining a phenomenon. You have no understanding of the scientific method, your thoughts and opinions on this topic are irrelevant as we already determined.
And you have no idea about that crap and what it costs to run in my truck,not to mention how many less miles the engine lasts because of it....Yet there are boatloads of cars on the road that buzz by me doing 140kms an hour with one f***en person in them...Meanwhile I deliver every f***en thing mankind needs and constantly get shafted into paying more and more ,while getting less and less...So please tell me again how this is workable??And that IAM A COWARD because I defend my livihood that supports my kids,and my way of life again??

[MOD: cleanup]
 
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topshelf15

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Gotcha, I get what you’re saying but I feel like you can still do little personal things that has no effect on people getting rich using green energy as their “front.”

It was just tough to see your talking points and I most certainly am not going to completely disagree with them. There will be people looking to capitalize on any industry. I assume a good example would be someone like Elon Musk.

On the flip side, there are truly people out there looking to do good and solve world issues. That does exist too.
Iam sure there are,but they like the rest of us sincere people dont have the pull ...Until that changes the world will remain the same unfortunately
 

coladin

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Nobody claims science is static and not constantly evolving, actually anybody who claims that doesn't understand the scientific method.

Pluto was classified as a planet in the 1930's when it was discovered. Since then astronomers have identified other objects in it's orbit, which means it shouldn't be truly classified as a planet. That occurred due to improvements in technology and improved observatories. So they reclassified it to meet the definitions that they place on other dwarf planets.

That is a weird example to be upset about the scientific method. You're using it as an example that scientists get things wrong, when really it's an example that our understandings continually improve because of science.

My point is , science is carried out by human beings and so long as that happens, there will be errors. There will be manipulation for economical gain. There will be misuse of science because human beings are tremendously flawed. Fertilizer has clearly changed the world, but it can also create bombs. Science in itself is pretty neutral, but human beings get in the way!

There are improvements in technology, certainly. But what if, instead of the reclassification of Pluto, it was a green technology that was now found to be incorrect? Then what to all those industries? Or pills that do more harm than good? Like I stated earlier, human beings always get in the way of science.

But I am not upset, just curious to know who was the first person who stated that Pluto was not a planet, and I can copy and paste that way you are talking, or the constant barrage of insults to topshelf...was probably the reaction from the scientific community. That I don't get . I get that some are passionate, or you may very well be a scientist, but geez.

Science has prolonged the lives of an entire race, to the point we are jammed with billions of human beings. People live longer than ever, can travel the world, into space, cure disease, etc...no debating that. Science has also been used in a manner that has killed millions, maybe billions. A world constantly evolving with scientific knowledge from human beings will always have pluses and minuses.
 

DrunkUncleDenis

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Okay this thread was already an OT so my bad for shutting it down... Just keep it clean guys, no personal attacks.
 

Stylizer1

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Okay this thread was already an OT so my bad for shutting it down... Just keep it clean guys, no personal attacks.
giphy.gif
 
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Stylizer1

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I think it has to do with the process and how there are some scientists not on board with the "consensus". Looking at 12000 papers and judging that 97 percent of them seem to be in favour of climate change doesn't seem like a scientific process.

Took me some time to find this but I read it about a year ago.

'97% Of Climate Scientists Agree' Is 100% Wrong

If you've ever expressed the least bit of skepticism about environmentalist calls for making the vast majority of fossil fuel use illegal, you've probably heard the smug response: “97% of climate scientists agree with climate change” — which always carries the implication: Who are you to challenge them?
The answer is: you are a thinking, independent individual--and you don’t go by polls, let alone second-hand accounts of polls; you go by facts, logic and explanation.
Here are two questions to ask anyone who pulls the 97% trick.
1. What exactly do the climate scientists agree on?
Usually, the person will have a very vague answer like "climate change is real."
Which raises the question: What is that supposed to mean? That climate changes? That we have some impact? That we have a large impact? That we have a catastrophically large impact? That we have such a catastrophic impact that we shouldn't use fossil fuels?
What you'll find is that people don't want to define what 97% agree on--because there is nothing remotely in the literature saying 97% agree we should ban most fossil fuel use.
It’s likely that 97% of people making the 97% claim have absolutely no idea where that number comes from.
If you look at the literature, the specific meaning of the 97% claim is: 97 percent of climate scientists agree that there is a global warming trend and that human beings are the main cause--that is, that we are over 50% responsible. The warming is a whopping 0.8 degrees over the past 150 years, a warming that has tapered off to essentially nothing in the last decade and a half.

Because the actual 97% claim doesn’t even remotely justify their policies, catastrophists like President Obama and John Kerry take what we could generously call creative liberties in repeating this claim.
On his Twitter account, President Obama tweets: “Ninety-seven percent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, man-made and dangerous.” Not only does Obama sloppily equate “scientists” with “climate scientists,” but more importantly he added “dangerous” to the 97% claim, which is not there in the literature.
This is called the fallacy of equivocation: using the same term (“97 percent”) in two different ways to manipulate people.
John Kerry pulled the same stunt when trying to tell the underdeveloped world that it should use fewer fossil fuels:
And let there be no doubt in anybody’s mind that the science is absolutely certain. . . 97 percent of climate scientists have confirmed that climate change is happening and that human activity is responsible. . . . . they agree that, if we continue to go down the same path that we are going down today, the world as we know it will change—and it will change dramatically for the worse.​
In Kerry’s mind, 97% of climate scientists said whatever Kerry wants them to have said.
Bottom line: What the 97% of climate scientists allegedly agree on is very mild and in no way justifies restricting the energy that billions need.
But it gets even worse. Because it turns out that 97% didn’t even say that.
Which brings us to the next question:
2. How do we know the 97% agree?
To elaborate, how was that proven?
Almost no one who refers to the 97% has any idea, but the basic way it works is that a researcher reviews a lot of scholarly papers and classifies them by how many agree with a certain position.
Unfortunately, in the case of 97% of climate scientists agreeing that human beings are the main cause of warming, the researchers have engaged in egregious misconduct.
One of the main papers behind the 97 percent claim is authored by John Cook, who runs the popular website SkepticalScience.com, a virtual encyclopedia of arguments trying to defend predictions of catastrophic climate change from all challenges.
Here is Cook’s summary of his paper: “Cook et al. (2013) found that over 97 percent [of papers he surveyed] endorsed the view that the Earth is warming up and human emissions of greenhouse gases are the main cause.”
This is a fairly clear statement—97 percent of the papers surveyed endorsed the view that man-made greenhouse gases were the main cause—main in common usage meaning more than 50 percent.
But even a quick scan of the paper reveals that this is not the case. Cook is able to demonstrate only that a relative handful endorse “the view that the Earth is warming up and human emissions of greenhouse gases are the main cause.” Cook calls this “explicit endorsement with quantification” (quantification meaning 50 percent or more). The problem is, only a small percentage of the papers fall into this category; Cook does not say what percentage, but when the study was publicly challenged by economist David Friedman, one observer calculated that only 1.6 percent explicitly stated that man-made greenhouse gases caused at least 50 percent of global warming.
Where did most of the 97 percent come from, then? Cook had created a category called “explicit endorsement without quantification”—that is, papers in which the author, by Cook’s admission, did not say whether 1 percent or 50 percent or 100 percent of the warming was caused by man. He had also created a category called “implicit endorsement,” for papers that imply (but don’t say) that there is some man-made global warming and don’t quantify it. In other words, he created two categories that he labeled as endorsing a view that they most certainly didn’t.
The 97 percent claim is a deliberate misrepresentation designed to intimidate the public—and numerous scientists whose papers were classified by Cook protested:
“Cook survey included 10 of my 122 eligible papers. 5/10 were rated incorrectly. 4/5 were rated as endorse rather than neutral.”
—Dr. Richard Tol
“That is not an accurate representation of my paper . . .”
—Dr. Craig Idso
“Nope . . . it is not an accurate representation.”
—Dr. Nir Shaviv
“Cook et al. (2013) is based on a strawman argument . . .”
—Dr. Nicola Scafetta
Think about how many times you hear that 97 percent or some similar figure thrown around. It’s based on crude manipulation propagated by people whose ideological agenda it serves. It is a license to intimidate.
It’s time to revoke that license.

This is the best reason to be skeptical. None of this looks like scientific process.

Mods: I needed to post the whole thing as a way to defend the opposing view and pretty much my stance.
 

Engineer

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it was a green technology that was now found to be incorrect? Then what to all those industries?
So for example we find that wind turbines do more harm than good, because they draw energy out of weather patterns?

Then we would stop investing in those technologies and the companies involved would have to adapt.

So, the exact same situation as any other industry.

and I can copy and paste that way you are talking, or the constant barrage of insults to topshelf...

Multiple people have responded to his ridiculous ramblings with resources and actual facts, yet he decides to be intentionally ignorant and continue to ignore everything responded to him. That is why you are seeing such strong responses, the patient respectful replies only last so long when they're wasting your time with such uneducated replies and constant refusal to bother taking a moment to learn.
 
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Engineer

Rustled your jimmies
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And you have no idea about that crap and what it costs to run in my truck,not to mention how many less miles the engine lasts because of it....Yet there are boatloads of cars on the road that buzz by me doing 140kms an hour with one ****en person in them...

Once again, a car going 140km/h is completely irrelevant to why you are required to use urea.
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
Once again, irrelevant.

Meanwhile I deliver every ****en thing mankind needs and constantly get shafted into paying more and more ,while getting less and less...So please tell me again how this is workable??
Maybe it isn't? The market decides what is feasible in our capitalist society.

[MOD: like I said, keep it clean]
 
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Nac Mac Feegle

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And you have no idea about that crap and what it costs to run in my truck,not to mention how many less miles the engine lasts because of it....Yet there are boatloads of cars on the road that buzz by me doing 140kms an hour with one ****en person in them...Meanwhile I deliver every ****en thing mankind needs and constantly get shafted into paying more and more ,while getting less and less...So please tell me again how this is workable??And that IAM A COWARD because I defend my livihood that supports my kids,and my way of life again??

[MOD: cleanup]


That's where it gets tricky.

I know where you're coming from. I work in a warehouse, and I'm seeing videos of all these super little drones doing my job for a fraction of the cost, and it scares the hell out of me. I don't have a bunch of wealth, or a university degree...and after a long shift doing a physically demanding job, I'm lucky to get the kitchen counter cleaned up after putting some garbage fake food in the microwave. The thought of somehow going out and getting retraining or a degree or something to still be employable after skynet takes over my spot....it just isn't happening. I'm too old and my body is too worn down to do anything more then get through the day as it is. It's scary as hell, knowing a freaking machine is going to take my place, likely within the next decade.

It's going to happen whether we like it or not. Life has a way of screwing over a lot of blue collar workers and regular joes. It happened to the buggy makers, the switchboard operators, etc....


But...looking at the bigger picture. I can see why we need to go green. As a kid, I'd fish in the Ottawa River...now, you can almost walk across the river with all that pollution and stink. I used to catch a ton of neat bugs as a kid....now I can't remember the last time I saw a butterfly, a firefly, or even a caterpillar. Thirty years ago planting a garden, each shovel of soil revealed tons of bugs....now, there's earwigs, ants and the occasional worm...and nothing else. Trees are dying. As a kid, I'd never heard of allergies to peanut butter, and asthma was incredibly rare. Now, it's in every classroom. You don't have to be a scientist or have a fancy degree to see that something is wrong with this planet. If we don't start to try and at least begin the process of fixing things now, then perhaps in 40 or 50 years, it will be too late to go green. I don't see how we can continue using the planet as a garbage dump forever.....sooner or later we'll hit a point where we can't fix things.
 

topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
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Once again, a car going 140km/h is completely irrelevant to why you are required to use urea.
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
Once again, irrelevant.


Maybe it isn't? The market decides what is feasible in our capitalist society.

[MOD: like I said, keep it clean]
I know why I have to use Urea,my point is why that crap??Is that the best they could come up with...Or the only one they can continuously charge me for,both for the liquid and the maintenance??Not including the E test that I along with everybody else has to pay....You say it irrelevant but its not to me ....

Its so fun to say you are going Green so long as its not you footing the bill...The fact I chose to run a piss truck instead of buying a glider and using an older far far more reliable engine without that crap ...Is because I do care ,and do understand that the planet needs help ....By why does the cost always have to be bourne by the already overstressed and finacially overburdened middle class???While we have billionaires making money off of this movement ,is more than just a piss off
 

topshelf15

Registered User
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That's where it gets tricky.

I know where you're coming from. I work in a warehouse, and I'm seeing videos of all these super little drones doing my job for a fraction of the cost, and it scares the hell out of me. I don't have a bunch of wealth, or a university degree...and after a long shift doing a physically demanding job, I'm lucky to get the kitchen counter cleaned up after putting some garbage fake food in the microwave. The thought of somehow going out and getting retraining or a degree or something to still be employable after skynet takes over my spot....it just isn't happening. I'm too old and my body is too worn down to do anything more then get through the day as it is. It's scary as hell, knowing a freaking machine is going to take my place, likely within the next decade.

It's going to happen whether we like it or not. Life has a way of screwing over a lot of blue collar workers and regular joes. It happened to the buggy makers, the switchboard operators, etc....


But...looking at the bigger picture. I can see why we need to go green. As a kid, I'd fish in the Ottawa River...now, you can almost walk across the river with all that pollution and stink. I used to catch a ton of neat bugs as a kid....now I can't remember the last time I saw a butterfly, a firefly, or even a caterpillar. Thirty years ago planting a garden, each shovel of soil revealed tons of bugs....now, there's earwigs, ants and the occasional worm...and nothing else. Trees are dying. As a kid, I'd never heard of allergies to peanut butter, and asthma was incredibly rare. Now, it's in every classroom. You don't have to be a scientist or have a fancy degree to see that something is wrong with this planet. If we don't start to try and at least begin the process of fixing things now, then perhaps in 40 or 50 years, it will be too late to go green. I don't see how we can continue using the planet as a garbage dump forever.....sooner or later we'll hit a point where we can't fix things.
Yep well put nobody should have an issue in saving the earth....Its something we all need to share in the burden...But in that last sentence lies the problem...Not everybody will ever be completely on board...
 
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