Barzal vs. Matthews

Who will end up being the better Center?


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Laineux

Registered User
Aug 1, 2011
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Even with the highest, most generous interpretation of Matthews' performance, you'd really need to stretch the boundaries of a generational player to apply it to him.

At the absolute considerable minimum, there would be at least 10 other generational players to enter the league within the last 30 years.
 
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TIGERCOOL

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Sep 29, 2014
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But if Matthews' does actually outproduce Barzal, we can say it's because JT is on his team, right?

We already have a baseline performance for Matthews without JT (over a ppg, 45 goal pace in his sophomore season even when he was significantly slowed by injuries). I have no doubt that his points totals will continue to improve, and yes, Tavares will factor into that in some respect. It's simply much tougher on your opponents when they have to focus on two elite centermen instead of one. If Matthews is healthy 90+ points and 45+ goals are definitely within reach in my opinion.

I think Barzal is capable of being the true number 1 center on his team and being the complete focus of opponent's game-planning and matchups. I'm just taking the patient approach and waiting until he does it. What's the rush? The question has been asked, the poll suggests that most people think Matthews is ahead, but Barzal has a great opportunity this year to prove them wrong. Does it really matter that much if hfboards and hockey pundits disagrees with you that he's on Matthews level? If you have so much faith in the kid then sit back and enjoy the show.
 
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teravaineSAROS

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Jul 29, 2015
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I think an extra 32 assists is definitely more impressive than an extra 18 goals. To each their own, by the assist gap is almost twice the size of the goal gap

What about his 28 secondary assists? Obviously it doesn't tell the full story since he was very much involved in a lot of those as well; but it's far away from as valuable as goals are IMO.

I agree that it gets very subjective at this point and it's almost a matter of what flavour you prefer the most.
 

TheDoldrums

Registered User
May 3, 2016
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OMG, this idea, or line of thinking, needs to die
All at ES:
Matthews' QoCTOI 29.83
Mattews' QoCCF% 49.96

Barzal's QoCTOI 29.1
Barzal's QoCCF% 50.02

Much difference

I don't think you understand the stat. There are hundreds of players that had a QoCTOI of between 29-30. So many players fall in that range. So yes, there actually is "much difference" between 29.83 and 29.1, despite your misplaced sarcasm.

cd3d47.jpg


Matthews was in the 96th percentile for QoC last season.

Barzal was in the 63rd.
 
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Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,783
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How is the debate between QoT vs QoC working out in terms of which is more important for production? Been a while since I paid any attention to it.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,327
We already have a baseline performance for Matthews without JT (over a ppg, 45 goal pace in his sophomore season even when he was significantly slowed by injuries). I have no doubt that his points totals will continue to improve, and yes, Tavares will factor into that in some respect. It's simply much tougher on your opponents when they have to focus on two elite centermen instead of one. If Matthews is healthy 90+ points and 45+ goals are definitely within reach in my opinion.

I think Barzal is capable of being the true number 1 center on his team and being the complete focus of opponent's game-planning and matchups. I'm just taking the patient approach and waiting until he does it. What's the rush? The question has been asked, the poll suggests that most people think Matthews is ahead, but Barzal has a great opportunity this year to prove them wrong. Does it really matter that much if hfboards and hockey pundits disagrees with you that he's on Matthews level? If you have so much faith in the kid then sit back and enjoy the show.

Matthews playing with Marner on the power play will be the biggest factor if his special teams points go up. Matthews has never played on the Leafs first power play line.

Babcock may again choose to run a 1a and 1b power play and refuse to load one up. Babcock only cares about wins, not about inflating someones stats.

And before someone jumps on me that's not a slight at anyone, it's just a comment on how Babcock coaches. He tries to balance ice time between players.
 

SCampo98

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Dec 24, 2015
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Sherbrooke, QC
I think that in general, playmaking F2 type centers tend to have a bigger effect on success than goal scoring F3 type centers. For that reason, I’m taking Barzal.

These players are very very close. There is nothing wrong with taking either one of them. Barzal is only 4 months older, but Matthews already has proven this over two seasons, Barzal has a better career PPG than Matthews in either of his seasons, Matthews is the best ESG scorer in the NHL as a 19-20 year old, Barzal has 85 points but Matthews has never hit 70. They’re pretty much even at this point but I just like the playmaking center more than the goal scoring center.

Let's be honest, you're taking Barzal because you're pissed at the Leafs for getting Tavares. Any sane person knows Matthews will turn out to be a better centre than Barzal
 

ScaredStreit

Registered User
May 5, 2006
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Matthews did one better and finished second in the league in goals as a rookie coming straight out of the draft as well as led his team as 'the guy' from last place to the playoffs.

Literally the last player to do what Matthews did as an U20 rookie, in terms of goal-scoring, was Mario Lemieux.

Further, when was the last time a first overall pick led his team from last placed to the playoffs in his rookie year?

2013: Colorado 2nd to last place
2014: Colorado 3rd place (MacKinnon)

If you want to play technicality since it's 2nd to last and not last (as if it's that big of a difference):

2017: Colorado last place
2018: Colorado makes playoffs
2018: MacKinnon hart trophy finalist

Not discrediting Matthews whatsoever, but when you make claims at least do your homework.
 

mammothCacti

Registered User
Feb 19, 2018
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Nothing wrong with Barzal being better than Matthews if he's gets paid like it.

If Matty is getting 11, Barzal is getting McDavid money.

That's assuming if he's better.
 

6 Karlsson 5

Registered User
Aug 9, 2012
3,671
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I don't think you understand the stat. There are hundreds of players that had a QoCTOI of between 29-30. So many players fall in that range. So yes, there actually is "much difference" between 29.83 and 29.1, despite your misplaced sarcasm.

cd3d47.jpg


Matthews was in the 96th percentile for QoC last season.

Barzal was in the 63rd.

A) Low St.Dev does not equal big impact for little difference; you actually have to prove it, but since you are telling people that they don't understand, you should already know that

B) "Experts" in the field, like the guy who made that graph, potentially, have trouble adjusting for QoC, and it is so small, its not even a component in the GAR model; he makes a small adj, but doesn't go into it. Yet, you fans think its as simple as popping open the internet and looking at number and percentiles.

C) Experts in the field have already explained why current versions of QoC are not good, from a statistical theory point of view

If we assume 80% of the game is at ES
Mattews' opponents played... 60*0.8=48 / 48*0.2983=14.32
Barzal's opponents played... ^ / 48*0.291= 13.96

14.32 - 13.96 = 0.36

So unless you can show me that QoCTOI% has a massive impact on skater stats using actual statistical techniques, then forgive me for thinking that second differences in ice time in competition might make M.B struggle.

Both of these guys will be near the top of the p/60 leader boards next year. They are both dominate ES scorers. Worrying about QoC with these guys is worrying about nothing.
 
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Future

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Feb 8, 2011
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2013: Colorado 2nd to last place
2014: Colorado 3rd place (MacKinnon)

If you want to play technicality since it's 2nd to last and not last (as if it's that big of a difference):

2017: Colorado last place
2018: Colorado makes playoffs
2018: MacKinnon hart trophy finalist

Not discrediting Matthews whatsoever, but when you make claims at least do your homework.

It appears you have done your homework, yet got the wrong answers.

I wasn't even making a claim. I was posing a question.

Not only was Colorado not last placed, Mackinnon wasn't even the best player or leader of that team that year. Also not sure what Mackinnon's 5th year in the league has to do with a conversation about rookie impact.
 

ScaredStreit

Registered User
May 5, 2006
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It appears you have done your homework, yet got the wrong answers.

Not only was Colorado not last placed, Mackinnon wasn't even the best player or leader of that team that year. Also not sure what Mackinnon's 5th year in the league has to do with a conversation about rookie impact.

Lastly, I wasn't even making a claim. I was posing a question.

Your post did not specify "rookie", it specified 1st overall pick.

If you want to compare rookie seasons only it hurts your argument since Barzal just had the most points of a rookie over the past decade, and yes that includes Matthew's rookie year. If you want to go by this season Barzal scored as many assists and Matthews scored points. Again for the record I think Matthews will probably be better than Barzal next season, but it's far from a slam dunk.

Are you one of the Leaf fans who claimed that Matthews is a generational player? lol
 
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Future

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Feb 8, 2011
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Your post did not specify "rookie", it specified 1st overall pick.

If you want to compare rookie seasons only it hurts your argument since Barzal just had the most points of a rookie over the past decade, and yes that includes Matthew's rookie year. If you want to go by this season Barzal scored as many assists and Matthews scored points. Again for the record I think Matthews will probably be better than Barzal next season, but it's far from a slam dunk.

Are you one of the Leaf fans who claimed that Matthews is a generational player? lol

You're all over the place here. You have it up there in bold.

Further, when was the last time a first overall pick led his team from last placed to the playoffs in his rookie year?

Again, I wasn't making a claim, I was posing a question.

Matthews is on another level over Barzal and I think Matthews is better than Tavares. Based on his accomplishments and my eye-test watching every one of his games. There's not a player I'd trade him for outside of McDavid. Feel free to disagree, doesn't bother me.
 

ScaredStreit

Registered User
May 5, 2006
11,091
2,978
Tampa, FL
You're all over the place here. You have it up there in bold.



Again, I wasn't making a claim, I was posing a question.

Matthews is on another level over Barzal and I think Matthews is better than Tavares. Based on his accomplishments and my eye-test watching every one of his games. There's not a player I'd trade him for outside of McDavid. Feel free to disagree, doesn't bother me.

Matthews > Tavares due to accomplishments? ok lol

Tavares:

2 time Hart finalist
highest career point finish: 2nd
highest career goal finish: 4th
150 points over past two years
Since entering NHL: 3rd in goals, 6th in assists
Outscored Matthews by 21 points last season despite playing with worse teammates

Matthews

0 time Hart finalist
highest career point finish: 20th
highest career goal finish: 2nd
132 points over past two years
Since entering NHL: 6th in goals, 34th in points
 

ScaredStreit

Registered User
May 5, 2006
11,091
2,978
Tampa, FL
Tavares made a comment that Matthews skills are more advanced than when he was that age. Very big compliment

I agree Matthews is better than Tavares's first two seasons...but that doesn't mean Matthews is currently better than Tavares and it doesn't mean that Matthews will be better (he might be, he might not be).
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
16,057
11,250
I agree Matthews is better than Tavares's first two seasons...but that doesn't mean Matthews is currently better than Tavares and it doesn't mean that Matthews will be better (he might be, he might not be).
The next playoffs will tell the tale I think. That is the true measure of greatness
 

Future

Registered User
Feb 8, 2011
10,706
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Matthews > Tavares due to accomplishments? ok lol

Tavares:

2 time Hart finalist
highest career point finish: 2nd
highest career goal finish: 4th
150 points over past two years
Since entering NHL: 3rd in goals, 6th in assists
Outscored Matthews by 21 points last season despite playing with worse teammates

Matthews

0 time Hart finalist
highest career point finish: 20th
highest career goal finish: 2nd
132 points over past two years
Since entering NHL: 6th in goals, 34th in points

You're comparing accomplishments of a 9 year veteran to a player that just finished his second season in the league. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what I meant by that.
 
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